Diablo® III

Rain of Toads + Soul Harvest

06/15/2012 02:26 PMPosted by spookerz
In the time i can cast 1 splinters i can get off 3-4 toad causts (they stack) and they will tick for a significant amount


No you can't.
Yes the Rain of Toads casting animations is faster than splinters but it is not 4-5 times faster.
And if you include the delay from the time the casting animation is done to the time the toads actually hit there is no difference at all.


There is 0 delay on Rain of Toads. The delay is animation only. The damage dealt is immediate.
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92 Human Rogue
10690
Posts: 22
130/2 = 65 weapon damage per second for 34 mana

34/10 = 3.4

3.4x100 = 340% more mana efficienct than Rain of Toads

Therefore you can actually shoot 3.4 splinters for every Rain Of Toads

180 x 3.4 = 612% weapon damage for 34 mana vs 130% weapon damage for 34 mana

So yes it is actually even better than I initially stated.

The aoe on plague of toads is relatively small.


This is an argument of damage per mana, and not of pure damage per/sec. Of course splinters wins hands down in a mana conservation race. But my argument was that chain casting splinters results in practically no loss of mana and that you use toads as a dps buffer to SPEND mana since it yields a higher damage payout per sec than splinters, increasing exponentially per target hit with the toads. Also most of your argument is based on the assumption that were standing still free-casting for 2 minutes on a rare pack when most likely were kiting and using cd's to survive. In this time, i feel it useful to pop toads as im running over splinters vs certain mob types or affixes(because it is a faster animation) until i have zombie wall back up to do a big frontloaded toad+splinters burst every 20 seconds. While youre kiting and using spirit walk your mana inevitably returns to near full so that you are able to keep applying this burst every grasp cooldown. As i said i do run this build with no + mana regen on my gear and i find it completely sustainable in terms of mana as long as you arent spamming toads the entire time. Use toads on burst and periodically instead of splinters when in danger of quick ranged mobs.
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You initially claimed the casting time was 300-400% faster I simply stated that was untrue. You cannot cast 4 Rain of Toads in the time it takes to cast 1 splinter.

I never stated that Rain of Toads was not viable I stated that splinters is more efficient and has a higher dps per cast.

In order for Rain of Toads to = splinters 180% damage it would require
180/130 x 100 = 138% faster cast time or 1.38 (about 40 mana) casts of Rain of toads per every 1 cast of splinters for the same dps. The cast time may well be twice as fast (100%) but it still has a travel time until it reaches its target. Splinters fire instantly.

06/15/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Phrenikk
Thats me claiming at worst, toads is 33% faster cast time than spinters, and at best 50% faster.

In order for RoT to be higher single target dps than splinters it's cast must be 138% (over twice as fast) as splinters.

Rain of Toads can affect multiple enemies and can fire over walls so it has advantages. But as I stated earlier splinters is irrefutably better than RoT and more efficient single target dps.

I'm just trying to help people evaluate skills I'm not saying Rain of Toads is bad I loved using it in Hell. I just haven't found much use for it in Inferno. Use what you like and what works for you.
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92 Human Rogue
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Posts: 22
The cast time may well be twice as fast (100%) but it still has a travel time until it reaches its target. Splinters fire instantly.


Twice as fast = 200%. Last i checked 200% was higher than 138%

So you support my theory then that RoT is better dps

The cast time may well be twice as fast (100%) but it still has a travel time until it reaches its target. Splinters fire instantly.


You have this backwards also, RoT applies instantly, while splinters have to travel a distance.

Rain of Toads can affect multiple enemies and can fire over walls so it has advantages. But as I stated earlier splinters is irrefutably better than RoT and more efficient single target dps.


In my previous post that you probably didnt see, I agree with you that in terms of mana consumption, splinters is superior. But the mana consumption of splinters is effectively 0 (factoring in regen, mana spent is actuality negative. On my WD i have 28.8 regen per second so i net +8.8 mana while splinter spamming, assuming around 2 casts per sec) .
When mana spent is 0 or less then it would be a DPS increase to use the more mana inefficient spell (RoT) to increase your damage (as proven and admitted by you in your equation of 138% casting speed being the break even point and toad cast being nearly twice as fast aka 200% casting speed)

How can you continue to argue this fallacy that splinters is by far the superior choice to always spam??
Thats like claiming you play a mage on wow and that you sohuld spam ice lance instead of frostbolt because the mana cost is lower. Sure you never go oom but there are other viable options that would increase dps while not going oom. I dont understand your logic at all.
Edited by Phrenik#1812 on 6/15/2012 3:17 PM PDT
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Am I the only one that really enjoys this ability? It's great CC and super-low Mana cost.

I use it well into the 40's and in other situations later on.

AoE with excellent damage and you combine it with a x5 multiplier with Soul harvest, this is a beastly attack.

Anyone else use this and enjoy it?

Side Note: Also fun to rain toads on your friends and getting those 'ewwwww' responses. :D

Side, Side Note: I <3 this with Roll the Bones as well.


They are both great at 60 in a tank build with life on hit. Many people have found solid uses for both spells. Keep enjoying the WD and ignore the haters. It's all about finding a playstyle you enjoy and making it work to fit the situation.
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06/15/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Phrenikk
How can you continue to argue this fallacy that splinters is by far the superior choice to always spam??


Ug I never said splinters is always the superior ability to spam in fact if there was a single highest theoretical dps ability to spam it would be Zombie Bears in which all bears hit the target multiple times, in a world of infinite mana this would be king.

I stated that splinters is a higher dps more mana efficient ability than Rain of Toads. You are attempting to obfuscate this fact by adding confounding factors such as mana regen.

This is essentially your argument:
Well I can spam Rain Of Toads all day in my current gear. Rain of Toads is clearly the better choice.

My argument:
Well not everyone has your exact gear and your evidence is anecdotal and situational. While you may be able to regen enough mana to spam RoT this in no way indicates that all WD can stand still and spam RoT. In fact splinters is more mana efficient and does more
damage for the mana cost.

Edit:
You have a very difficult time separating yourself from your own personal situation and viewing this in a more objective manner.
Edited by spookerz#1416 on 6/15/2012 4:03 PM PDT
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The reason any plague of toads spell is not as effective at level 60 is mana efficiency. Most WD like to stack attack speed to lower casting animations and increase number of casts. This is a huge drain on mana.

Poison Dart 10 mana
Plague of Toads 34 mana

You can shoot 3 splinters for 540% damage, can hit off screen
or you can use 1 rain of toads for 130% damage in 2 seconds, can not hit off screen

as you can see splinters are much better for kiting and more efficient at dealing damage
rain of toads has the advantage of being able to hit multiple enemies and can go "over" walls.

In the end its your personal preference but numerically splinters is more effecient


I think you're off in that assessment. It's 60% damage per shot, for 3 shots. Not 180% per shot, for 3 shots.

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/active/poison-dart

It's more like saying it's 130% AoE with huge mana cost, or 180% single target with nearly no mana cost.

Just depends on how much mana regen you have, or are willing to sacrifice for.


It's 180% damage... 60% damage per dart so 60x3 = 180.
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90 Tauren Shaman
8310
Posts: 174
06/15/2012 12:02 PMPosted by RSQViper


Rain of Toads is perfectly viable, some people say.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5592459114

I haven't tried it myself though. As far as Soul Harvest, it's reaaaaally hard to use when you get up there, just because people wack you so hard.

I'm glad you're enjoying Rain of Toads though. :) I personally love Lob Blob Bomb, and I never hear anyone talking about that one.


Yup, big fan of both. To me, WD is a CC class so going with single damage (unless fighting a boss) isn't that helpful. Watching me waste 20 enemies with ease in a scream of 'ribbits' brings a warmth to my cold heart.

Good to see many saying it is viable to 60. I play mostly Hardcore and my Witch Doctor is Softcore so he hasn't done the leveling he could have.


It's totally viable. I'm using it myself. The only issue is you're going to need significantly better gear than any kiting build. Between getting good resistances, armor, health, and life per hit just to live... it's expensive.
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There is 0 delay on Rain of Toads. The delay is animation only. The damage dealt is immediate.


There is approximately a 0.5 second delay from the end of the cast (raising of the arms for male WD) until the time that the toads actually rain down and do damage. No damage is dealt to the mob until the the toads rain down on it.
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I've been using a Rain of Toads build in inferno without much trouble. It and firepit are by far the best skills to use for +life on hit, which makes tanking mobs in inferno possible.

Rain of toads is definitely superior to splinters. It casts faster, stacks damage, and has splash damage. There is no delay in the damage, the damage is on click, even though the animation is slower.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZWkUSh!ZXV!abZccc
Edited by teknic#1780 on 6/15/2012 5:33 PM PDT
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92 Human Rogue
10690
Posts: 22
Ug I never said splinters is always the superior ability to spam in fact if there was a single highest theoretical dps ability to spam it would be Zombie Bears in which all bears hit the target multiple times, in a world of infinite mana this would be king.
I stated that splinters is a higher dps more mana efficient ability than Rain of Toads. You are attempting to obfuscate this fact by adding confounding factors such as mana regen.

Seems to me that you said in a previous post that "Anyways like I said use what you like but splinters are irrefutably better single target more efficient dps." So you did in fact claim splinters was better and i proved you wrong on which is superior in single target dps as well as the obvious multi-target (which is why were still discussing this). Either that, or you acknowledge that RoT is superior in multi-target situations (anything but boss fights mostly) in which case why make an argument in this thread over a skill based on the assumtion of it being used for single target dps when the most difficult part of the game are the rare and elite packs of mobs?
Theoretically Zombie Bears would be the highest dps, but we don't have infinite mana and none of my claims are theoretical, they are statements of fact. I am able to sustain using RoT in the paramaters that I described, whereas using bears is unrealistic without VQ and mana regen gear and isn't even a part of this conversation at all.

This is essentially your argument:
Well I can spam Rain Of Toads all day in my current gear. Rain of Toads is clearly the better choice.

My argument:
Well not everyone has your exact gear and your evidence is anecdotal and situational. While you may be able to regen enough mana to spam RoT this in no way indicates that all WD can stand still and spam RoT. In fact splinters is more mana efficient and does more
damage for the mana cost.

Edit:
You have a very difficult time separating yourself from your own personal situation and viewing this in a more objective manner.


Your whole argument this whole time has been about how mana efficient splinters is compared to RoT and how superior it is in terms of dps. Goin as far as to try and make calculations with incorrect factors (blatantly showing how my logic proves that RoT is superior dps even in single target). All that I am doing is simply refuting your claims by showing you that just because it is more mana efficient doesn't mean that its combat effecient. Great i can spam splinters all day and never go oom, or i can use some mana by tossing in toads, do more dps and still not go oom. Which do you choose?

I've also actually never once said i sit and spam rain of toads all day. Have you even read my posts? I've stated that Rain of Toads is complimentary damage that WHEN USED together with splinters, is higher dps than splinters alone and far superior in multi target situations. I also specifically stated the rotation and how i use it (with NO mana regen at all on my gear)
Here's links to my gear slots that would have mana regen:

Helm - http://imgur.com/H1nUW,p6GZ6,bSGAg#0
Offhand - http://imgur.com/H1nUW,p6GZ6,bSGAg#1
Mainhand - http://imgur.com/H1nUW,p6GZ6,bSGAg#2

As you can see there is no mana regen whatsoever. 28.8 regen is baseline with having spiritual attunement passive. (Without Spiritual attunement regen is 20 per sec still costing you 0 mana to spam splinters)

Youre claiming that I havent viewed this topic in an objective manner, but I think that it's you are are not being objective in the matter. I you could step back from your mana efficiency perspective and realize what im telling you, to suppliment your dps, you'd have a much easier time grasping this concept. Aside from that, you shouldn't contribute to a topic on a particular skillset that you yourself don't have knowledge of and havent used in inferno. All you're doing is theorycrafting. Go out and do some farm runs with it, try it for yourself before you come in here and tell people that splinters are far superior, because they are not.
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06/15/2012 04:25 PMPosted by spookerz
There is 0 delay on Rain of Toads. The delay is animation only. The damage dealt is immediate.


There is approximately a 0.5 second delay from the end of the cast (raising of the arms for male WD) until the time that the toads actually rain down and do damage. No damage is dealt to the mob until the the toads rain down on it.


No, there is no delay, that is only the animation. The damage is immediate. Test it on a mob and bring no pets or a follower so you can be sure. I was playing tonight and checked this out. No delay at all. Using a Male WD, too (not that it matters).

Also, I was testing dart vs RoT and let me tell you, RoT >>> Dart.

Wow, it is noticeable even on a singe target. Once the stacking is in full there is no doubt it is about 200% the damage you out-pace the dart damage in those 2 seconds, easy. Yeah, kiting is more difficult since you need to get it off so if you really <3 kiting all the time, maybe not the best, but keep it in your arsenal.
Edited by RSQViper#1208 on 6/15/2012 6:46 PM PDT
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92 Human Rogue
10690
Posts: 22
if you chain spam RoT with other abillities like grasp or wall, you will go oom. I suggest taking spiritual attunement passive and the mana regen rune with spirit walk to keep your mana up. i frontload 3-4 casts into an elite pack when i cast zombiewall+grasp and then dart spam. you mostly want to put it up in burst situations because it is very good at supplimenting damage but isnt sustainable if you constantly spam it.. its a situational use that will boost your dps over using plain splinters but it just takes a little getting used to how often you can use it. I basically use spirit walk on CD when im being offensive and i havent taken a hit to proc spirit vessel. As this spec i also reccomend going glass cannon and going pure intel. Sacrificing most vit for attack speed, crit and crit damage. Not all people can handle the glass cannon playstyle, so it might not be for you. It may work with more hp and resists but i prefer to just load up on damage with this setup.
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Again I never stated that RoT is bad or that it is not viable

I am a huge fan of RoT it is probably my second favorite ability next to locust swarm.

If you look at all my posts I am simply stating that splinters are more mana efficient and does more damage per cast than rain of toads ( I can't believe people are arguing about this).

If I cast splinters 10 times I'm going to do 1800 damage and spend 100 mana
If i cast RoT 10 times I'm going to do 1300 damage and spend 340 mana.
I just don't know how to make that any simpler.

Realize that in a kiting situation with PTV you will be spending significant amount of mana on abilities like Grasp of the Dead, Horrify, Wall of Zombie, Spirit Walk (if not running Honored Guest) and whatever else your using. This is a significant amount of mana and even spamming splinters (which is just mana neutral) you will be hard press to find mana for RoT.

@ Phren as an aside (just can't let this go) You need to realize terms like "twice as much" are relative terms. That is to say their value is dependent on the value of something else. Example:Let's say you and I are driving along at 50mph were passed by a car going very fast. I say "wow that guy was going very fast he must be going twice as fast as us." You say "wow you're right he must be going 100mph." I say yes that is 200% faster than we are going. You say hmmm that doesn't sound right to me because 2 x 50 = 100. 100 + 50(our current speed) = 150. You say no I think he's going 100% faster than us 1 x 50 = 50. 50 + 50 = 100 I say yeah you're right he is going 100% faster than us which is twice as fast.

Also it is possible that because I play with a high latency that in my testing no mob dies until I see the first tick of damage from RoT. Perhaps it is possible to vaporize mobs as soon as the ability is triggered. I'll test this on a better connection.

Anyways this thread is interesting and I think we have successfully hijacked it.
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firebombs > rain of toad

firebombs + darts = aoe + single target = everything you need.

dunno why everyone is stuck with darts only. I use both spells and I'm incredible effective.
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92 Human Rogue
10690
Posts: 22
@ Phren as an aside (just can't let this go) You need to realize terms like "twice as much" are relative terms. That is to say their value is dependent on the value of something else. Example:Let's say you and I are driving along at 50mph were passed by a car going very fast. I say "wow that guy was going very fast he must be going twice as fast as us." You say "wow you're right he must be going 100mph." I say yes that is 200% faster than we are going. You say hmmm that doesn't sound right to me because 2 x 50 = 100. 100 + 50(our current speed) = 150. You say no I think he's going 100% faster than us 1 x 50 = 50. 50 + 50 = 100 I say yeah you're right he is going 100% faster than us which is twice as fast.


Lets structure this problem like this. We could both agree that 1/100 = 1% correct. And that 100/100 would then be considered 100%. By using simple math and cross multiplying X/50(mph) = 100/100(%). Therefore at 100% x=50.
If car 2 was doing 100mph relative to car 1. Then the problem would be structured such as 100/50 = x/100. Cross multiply and you get that x = 200(%). Therefore if a car passes you doing 100mph while you are doing 50, he is indeed traveling 200% your speed.

you forget to take into account that your current speed would be equal to 100% in this equation. Your car is not 0, it is not at rest, therefore its value relative to anything else would be 100% and other cars would travel faster or slower in relation to that.

At this point im just arguing for the sake of arguing because its fun. You can agree that RoT is a superior spell in terms of dps. Understand how it can be used efficiently without going oom, andddd acknowledge that i win and i own <3
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92 Human Rogue
10690
Posts: 22
Another funny part about this is that im experimenting with leaping spiders instead of splinters too. Theres a whole different debate we could have =D
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06/15/2012 08:20 PMPosted by Neogeo
To be fair, firebomb had a slower cast animation which required at least 2 attack per sec of IAS to match the speed of ROT. Firebomb is also not a very good spells for kiting because of the hit delay and the ground based dot(if you used fire pit rune).

well don't use the fire pit rune? roll the bones is by FAR the most superior.
firebomb's SOLE downside is the relatively low damage of 85%. it's decent enough to be worthwhile, but nothing that screams "I'm a good spell, use me.". should be at least 100% imo. at the moment you need to hit 3 targets to make it more efficient then Darts (darts does 180% damage one one target, bomb does 170% damage in comparison if you hit 2 targets). still, it's our best AoE spell. period.
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