Diablo® III

Lets talk about the writers...

90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
Oh, I know they have names. I just don't remember them because their characters were so meaningless (In the game. I'm sure if I did a bunch of external reading I'd find a wealth of meaning to them. This is a discussion about the game.), and I'm not going to bother looking it up when you already know perfectly well who I'm talking about.


How does this not show a level of a disrespect, close mindedness and bias?

Well drat, I must have missed the part of D3 where I could collect the sword pieces in any order.

Or maybe I missed the part of D2 where I could get the amulet then the staff then the cube. Or the brain then the heart then the eye. Or even reverse that. However I felt.


Oh god, two sets of quests that let you choose what order you grab the items you need?!

1. You could choose which stone to get first in the Alaric questline.
2. You could choose which vial of blood to get first in the Zoltun Kulle questline

Yes, Diablo 2's story is linear. But Diablo 3's story is on rails. There is a difference between the two terms.


I just gave you two examples where you could choose the order in which you got items. Just like in D2. Either D2 is on rails or D3 is not, because they operate the exact same way.

06/18/2012 11:22 AMPosted by UnsungZero
As for Butcher, it was a letdown in D2 to find that he's just one of many. After that they bring back the confined room similar to how he was encountered in D1, which actually works - but he's listening to Maghda?! When did Butcher join in Belial's cadre when his forte is brute force and Belial is (supposedly) finesse.


Belial isn't Magda. Magda frequently uses... whatever those demons are, the ones with the massive axes. As for the Butcher's loyalty, Butcher demons are Diablo's demons... but Diablo is thoguht to be dead by all of Hell, so many demons up and shifted alliances.
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88 Human Death Knight
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Posts: 286
>Hacks>An American TaleRight.


Melyria you are a sychophant
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88 Human Death Knight
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Posts: 286
06/18/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Melyria
And you haunting my posts, across threads, to do nothing but to insult me is pathetic.


someone has to stand up and battle the injustice of your posts!
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06/17/2012 02:00 PMPosted by LittleDisco
Neither of which who who wrote the original diablo story


But, what was the original Diablo story?

Diablo 1's story was basically "I heard Diablo is hiding under that church. I'm'a go get him."

Diablo 2's story was basically "I heard Diablo went that way. I'm'a go get him."

If you didn't like the story, then you have just missed the point.


D2's story wasn't great but it was just extremely well told.

D3's story is full of inconsistencies and is poorly told.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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D2's story wasn't great but it was just extremely well told.


Let us be fair here. D2's story was so bare bones you could not screw it up. It was literally point A to point B, point B to point C. All chasing a single person and failing to catch him in time.

Yes, the atmosphere was great if you wanted dark and grim. The dialogue was often clipped, short (and yes, this worked well for bosses) and the characters were hard, if not impossible, to become attached to.

Many of the quests in D2 were basically "Go here, get it" without explaining WHY something existed where it did. Do we know why a giant bug pit houses a Horadric staff piece? Or why Kalim's heart is where it is? Or why we know these things to be there? No, not really. The game doesn't even bother trying to tell you why we know something that we do, just to go do it.

06/18/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Khristophoro
D3's story is full of inconsistencies and is poorly told.


Not that many inconsistencies. There were maybe two major plot holes and any other inconsistencies were really either so minor they'd be nitpicks or they're not relevant to the story.

Now, yes, people say the story is not well told or executed (and in some parts it certainly was) but that doesn't mean the entire thing was botched. With pushing story to the forefront and actually making it complex, beyond "Collect X, use X to kill Y, rinse repeat" Blizzard risks screwing up.

This is part of the reason why Tyrael comes off not as 'epic' as he did in D2. In D2 his lines were far and few. In D3, he has tons of dialogue. It isn't hard to make somebody mysterious and epic when he only speaks maybe 4 times in the entire game.
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Not that many inconsistencies. There were maybe two major plot holes and any other inconsistencies were really either so minor they'd be nitpicks or they're not relevant to the story.

Now, yes, people say the story is not well told or executed (and in some parts it certainly was) but that doesn't mean the entire thing was botched. With pushing story to the forefront and actually making it complex, beyond "Collect X, use X to kill Y, rinse repeat" Blizzard risks screwing up.

This is part of the reason why Tyrael comes off not as 'epic' as he did in D2. In D2 his lines were far and few. In D3, he has tons of dialogue. It isn't hard to make somebody mysterious and epic when he only speaks maybe 4 times in the entire game.


Two major plotholes is far too many considering how long this game was in development.

And the reason Tyrael doesn't come off as epic anymore is that they turned him into a human. They leveled him down in an attempt to make him easier to relate to.
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88 Human Death Knight
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06/18/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Melyria
Not that many inconsistencies


this statement is incorrect. There were many MANY inconsistencies in the story. Hell, ACT 1 alone had a ton.

06/18/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Melyria
Now, yes, people say the story is not well told or executed (and in some parts it certainly was) but that doesn't mean the entire thing was botched


no, that is exactly what it means. you are just defending the blizzard writers for no reason.

06/18/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Melyria
With pushing story to the forefront and actually making it complex, beyond "Collect X, use X to kill Y, rinse repeat" Blizzard risks screwing up.


which they did terribly. MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE JUST DONE A SIMPLE STORY WELL INSTEAD OF A COMPLEX ONE POORLY!!! ARGGHGHGHHHHH!H!!!!!!

06/18/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Melyria
It isn't hard to make somebody mysterious and epic when he only speaks maybe 4 times in the entire game.


Maybe they should have had Tyrael only speak a few times then. What is your point? It was easy to be epic in D2 because they did things right but its really hard to do things epic in D3 because they did them wrong so it shouldnt be their fault?

You are basically saying that we should forgive the terrible job on the story because of how much more difficult it is? Do you even read your posts?
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06/18/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Melyria
Oh, I know they have names. I just don't remember them because their characters were so meaningless (In the game. I'm sure if I did a bunch of external reading I'd find a wealth of meaning to them. This is a discussion about the game.), and I'm not going to bother looking it up when you already know perfectly well who I'm talking about.


How does this not show a level of a disrespect, close mindedness and bias?

Now I'm disrespecting a made-up, two-bit character in a game because the game didn't impress me enough to remember them? You knew who I was talking about, right? I respect your intelligence enough to be able to understand what I'm referencing based on the context. Please don't tell me that was a mistake.

I remember Belial, Azmodan, the Butcher, Cydaea, Tyrael, Cain, Adria, Leah, Shen, Jondar, Imperius, Maghda, and apparently Rakanoth. You know, the ones that are either important bosses or big story components.

The henchmen I remember by their class names (Scoundrel, Enchantress, Templar) rather than proper names, because that's how the game presents them.

The angelic council I can't remember because they're not memorable. That doesn't show disrespect, it shows a failure in story telling. And it's just me being lazy to not bother to look them up, since again -- you know who I'm talking about.

Well drat, I must have missed the part of D3 where I could collect the sword pieces in any order.

Or maybe I missed the part of D2 where I could get the amulet then the staff then the cube. Or the brain then the heart then the eye. Or even reverse that. However I felt.


Oh god, two sets of quests that let you choose what order you grab the items you need?!

1. You could choose which stone to get first in the Alaric questline.
2. You could choose which vial of blood to get first in the Zoltun Kulle questline

Two sets of items to be located within the same zone is actually just clearing those zones in the same order. You can tell that this is one quest line very easily by if you reset the quest midway through you lose progress on both items. That is not only linear, that is still on rails.

Both my examples in Diablo 2 were in multiple zones, you could stop any time (Because they were actual items to carry), and you could do in any order. Additionally, the zones sometimes came at you in different orders, encouraging you to collect the items that way. In Diablo 3 both your examples always come in the same zone, and you must collect both before you're allowed ([B]Because you're gated[/b]) to progress.

Honestly, the gating has just as much to do with it being on rails (You must do this before you may go one step further) as the linear quest progression. It's the combination of the two. D2 didn't have the gating on top of the limited activities, so it was linear rather than on rails.

Edit: Let's summarize this to put it to rest: Diablo 2 is linear, you must do X Y and Z to progress. It's not open world, but you are allowed to go past X and then come back later and do it (Until you run into one of the three gates it has -- For reference, that's getting the staff in act 2 so you can go into the palace, getting khalim's will in act 3 so you can get into the durance of hate, and beating the ancients in act 5 so you can get into the worldstone keep. Those are the only gates Diablo 2 has.). Diablo 3 is on rails, you must do X, then Y, then Z, and until you do each you are gated. There's a gate after every quest preventing you from moving on until you finish it. Every. single. quest. That is why Diablo 3 is on rails (Which also includes being linear), while Diablo 2 is just linear.
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 6/18/2012 3:40 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/18/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Khristophoro
Two major plotholes is far too many considering how long this game was in development.


Plot holes happen. Some of the best works of fiction have them.

06/18/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Khristophoro
And the reason Tyrael doesn't come off as epic anymore is that they turned him into a human. They leveled him down in an attempt to make him easier to relate to.


Which is a bad thing now? Sometimes characters need to grow beyond the 'mystery' aspect. Tyrael was, frankly, one dimensional and hollow in D2.

06/18/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Draegoe
this statement is incorrect. There were many MANY inconsistencies in the story. Hell, ACT 1 alone had a ton.


Okay. Please list all of said inconsistencies from Act 1.

06/18/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Draegoe
no, that is exactly what it means. you are just defending the blizzard writers for no reason.


The story had good elements to it. It wasn't entirely botched. To say otherwise and to refuse that any good came from this story, to shut that potential of that out, shows just how biased you are. You're not even going to give the story a chance.

06/18/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Draegoe
which they did terribly. MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE JUST DONE A SIMPLE STORY WELL INSTEAD OF A COMPLEX ONE POORLY!!! ARGGHGHGHHHHH!H!!!!!!


Which is not what I'm debating. I'm saying the story is better, more complex, than the bare bones version of D2. That, in no way, talks about the overall quality of the experience.

06/18/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Draegoe
Maybe they should have had Tyrael only speak a few times then. What is your point? It was easy to be epic in D2 because they did things right but its really hard to do things epic in D3 because they did them wrong so it shouldnt be their fault?


Actually, I'd say Tyraels sacrifice, his rant against Imperius, was just as 'epic' as any of his appearances in D2.

Also, your logic is a bit circular. "They did it right in D2 because they did D2 right"?

06/18/2012 03:24 PMPosted by Draegoe
You are basically saying that we should forgive the terrible job on the story because of how much more difficult it is? Do you even read your posts?


I'm saying that not everything about D3's story is terrible. That it has its flaws, but the overall grade on it was 'mediocre' with a loss of potential. I am saying that overall, most people are overreacting and being irrational.

I'm also asking that people cut the writers a bit of slack. Not to forgive them for every thing wrong with the story but to not want to crucify them over every minor detail and nitpick.
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Plot holes happen. Some of the best works of fiction have them.


Well apparently your standards are low. I can't think of a story that I enjoyed that had such huge and obvious plot holes like D3 does.


Which is a bad thing now? Sometimes characters need to grow beyond the 'mystery' aspect. Tyrael was, frankly, one dimensional and hollow in D2.


They didn't change that. They just took away the cool things about him.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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06/18/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Bianary
Now I'm disrespecting a made-up, two-bit character in a game because the game didn't impress me enough to remember them?


You'er disrespecting the story on a fundamental level. By showing you don't even care to bring up the proper names, you show that you really could care less about anything pertaining to the story. To you, its not important to know Auriel or Itherael's name because its not like they matter. When in reality, they sorta do, both in story and in lore.

This would be like me consistantly refering to Gandalf as "that guy in the hat". I mean, if I was actually serious about bringing up points about him, debating about him or at least even knowing the story, I'd have the courtesy of knowing the character's name. Or at least trying.

06/18/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Bianary
The henchmen I remember by their class names (Scoundrel, Enchantress, Templar) rather than proper names, because that's how the game presents them.


Then you've failed to actually invest yourself in those characters or give them a chance. Eirena, Lyndon and Kormac. If you paid attention to them as you played, you'd know their names. I actually didn't know Eirena's name until I actually played from the entire game with her and got her conversation achievements.

The angelic council I can't remember because they're not memorable. That doesn't show disrespect, it shows a failure in story telling. And it's just me being lazy to not bother to look them up, since again -- you know who I'm talking about.


Then I suppose I have issue with you being lazy when it comes to debating the story and not taking even half a minute to reference them. Heck, saying even Hope or Fate, would've been fine by me. But you saying "Yeah those guys" just shows a lack at even attempting to remember them.

Two sets of items to be located within the same zone is actually just clearing those zones in the same order. You can tell that this is one quest line very easily by if you reset the quest midway through you lose progress on both items. That is not linear, that is still on rails.


You've got a point. Except if anything this being linear does nothing in comparison to D2. Yes, they're in the same zone, compared to you having to hunt around in D2. But in the end, what do you do in D2? You still go to these zones, you still collect the parts and you still put them together. It is still linear as all hell. You won't 'stop' because there isn't anything else for you to do.

At least in D3 they have random events, far more random dungeons and things like achievements, wandering tradesmen and packs of rare mobs that give you Nephalem Valor that encourages exploration. Heck, the entire core of the gameis designed around exploring, as opposed to just grinding bosses out.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/18/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Khristophoro
Well apparently your standards are low. I can't think of a story that I enjoyed that had such huge and obvious plot holes like D3 does.


Lord of the Rings. Why didn't they just fly the Eagles to Mordor? This is a well known, massive plot hole that pretty much destroys the entire plot.

06/18/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Khristophoro
They didn't change that. They just took away the cool things about him.


They gave him an actual personality and a character arc, where he grew, albeit slightly. Tyrael was by far the weakest 'main' character in D3, yet he was still far and beyond more of a character than D2's Tyrael.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
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And the reason Tyrael doesn't come off as epic anymore is that they turned him into a human. They leveled him down in an attempt to make him easier to relate to.


Which is a bad thing now? Sometimes characters need to grow beyond the 'mystery' aspect. Tyrael was, frankly, one dimensional and hollow in D2.


Tyrael is one of the few Blizzard characters who I can say is a complete badass, but not a mary sue. How is that one dimensional?

Not only does he look freaking amazing, but he makes mistakes, and lives up to them. He screws up in Tal-Rasha's tomb. He stood alone against two Prime Evils (though low powered), with almost no way to stop them. Yet, he doesn't cry about his loss, he does everything in his power to rectify it.

Instead of Diablo or Baal leaving a note saying ," Hai gais sorry you missed me, me and me bro is heading to kurast to free our other bro kiss kiss", Tyrael is the one who helps the hero.

Instead of a wise angelic general, we get an idiotic overpowered human wimp. Personally, the Tyrael jacket I own is of Tyrael from Diablo 2. I do not acknowledge the pretender in Diablo 3.

Plus Ed Trotta's voice acting is AMAZING. Stupid decision to not bring him back, regardless of "scheduling conflicts".
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They gave him an actual personality and a character arc, where he grew, albeit slightly. Tyrael was by far the weakest 'main' character in D3, yet he was still far and beyond more of a character than D2's Tyrael.


He added more to the story in D2. He was a great supporting character which by himself wasn't interesting but he created amazing contrast.

In D3 he's not unique enough so I don't really care if he has some character development or personality. He doesn't add anything to the story.

Oh not to mention in act 4 he actually gives up? That is not Tyrael. In D2 he relentlessly worked to protect sanctuary for centuries. He was the most dedicated to standing against the prime evils no matter what. It's such a painfully huge break of character.
Edited by Khristophoro#1862 on 6/18/2012 4:05 PM PDT
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74 Undead Mage
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Posts: 2,359
Edit: I mean, seriously. The game is about farming. NV is about farming. Why are we having our farming interrupted for cutscenes and forced dialogue on replays through the content we already beat? That's a huge part of why (For me) D3's story is bad, rather than just okay -- all the irritants in it really come to the front when I see it over, and over, and over, and ... etc.


i hear u can just skip dialogue.
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This would be like me consistantly refering to Gandalf as "that guy in the hat". I mean, if I was actually serious about bringing up points about him, debating about him or at least even knowing the story, I'd have the courtesy of knowing the character's name. Or at least trying.


Bahahaha your comparing Gandalf of Lord of the Rings to a sub-secondary character in Diablo 3? How old ARE you? Jesus chrysler your a moron. Seriously, your so stupid I'm posting for the first time on any Blizz forum because I just had to voice my opinion of you. Your idiocy actually seeped through my screen and had to be acknowledged.
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74 Undead Mage
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Posts: 2,359
06/18/2012 04:09 PMPosted by ntrntslth
This would be like me consistantly refering to Gandalf as "that guy in the hat". I mean, if I was actually serious about bringing up points about him, debating about him or at least even knowing the story, I'd have the courtesy of knowing the character's name. Or at least trying.


Bahahaha your comparing Gandalf of Lord of the Rings to a sub-secondary character in Diablo 3? How old ARE you? Jesus chrysler your a moron. Seriously, your so stupid I'm posting for the first time on any Blizz forum because I just had to voice my opinion of you. Your idiocy actually seeped through my screen and had to be acknowledged.


*Serious* Oh the irony.
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They didn't change that. They just took away the cool things about him.


They gave him an actual personality and a character arc, where he grew, albeit slightly. Tyrael was by far the weakest 'main' character in D3, yet he was still far and beyond more of a character than D2's Tyrael.

I honestly feel like you've got "talks more" confused with "deeper character"

06/18/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Melyria
This would be like me consistantly refering to Gandalf as "that guy in the hat". I mean, if I was actually serious about bringing up points about him, debating about him or at least even knowing the story, I'd have the courtesy of knowing the character's name. Or at least trying.


Not Gandalf. More like forgetting the name of Theoden or Denethor. I listed the characters I remembered, for Lord of the Rings Gandalf would certainly have qualified for the memorable list.
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 6/18/2012 4:20 PM PDT
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06/18/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Zong
Edit: I mean, seriously. The game is about farming. NV is about farming. Why are we having our farming interrupted for cutscenes and forced dialogue on replays through the content we already beat? That's a huge part of why (For me) D3's story is bad, rather than just okay -- all the irritants in it really come to the front when I see it over, and over, and over, and ... etc.


i hear u can just skip dialogue.

I hear it still takes the fade to cinematic and fade back to game even if you skip a cutscene immediately, and it's an unnecessary interruption even if it's just dialogue (And if another player skips it first you're bringing up your menu trying to cancel it yourself)

This game is about farming. Get the story out on repeat playthroughs unless someone clicks an option to turn it on. Just like there should have been special drops for your first time through on every act boss on every difficulty, the story should be only on the first time through as well.
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