Diablo® III

Lets talk about the writers...

90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/18/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Ironboot
Yet, he doesn't cry about his loss, he does everything in his power to rectify it.


Tyrael doesn't cry about anything until Act 4. And if you paid attention, it doesn't matter if Tyrael was mortal or immortal, he still would've acted that way since Auriel was captured. It was clear how angels work, set out int he story for you.

06/18/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Ironboot
Plus Ed Trotta's voice acting is AMAZING. Stupid decision to not bring him back, regardless of "scheduling conflicts".


To be fair, the new guy's voice acting is not bad. And 'scheduling conflicts' could mean a lot of things, to just that to Ed Trotta being a jerk to Blizzard being a jerk.

06/18/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Khristophoro
Oh not to mention in act 4 he actually gives up? That is not Tyrael


Yes, it is. That is Tyrael. That is all angels. Did you not pay attention to the part where they explicitely say that his iw how angels work? That the Angiris Council literally empowers the Angelic Host with their virtue?

All those mentions of Imperius emboldening his army. Auriel was lost. Which means one thing. That the entire angelic host cannot, as in being physically incapable, of feeling hope. All hope was extinguished from the Angelic host and (implied) humanity as well. Until you save her, at which point everyone bucks up.

06/18/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Bianary
I honestly feel like you've got "talks more" confused with "deeper character"


No, I'm not. Tyrael was generic, one dimensional and actually somewhat boring in D2. In D3 he actually has a character arc. Hell, in Tyrael's Sacrifice we learn more about what Tyrael is, what he believes in, what he thinks and his own personal inner workings than every single appearance he makes in D2 combined.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
Not Gandalf. More like forgetting the name of Theoden or Denethor. I listed the characters I remembered, for Lord of the Rings Gandalf would certainly have qualified for the memorable list.


And if we were debating the actions, usefulness or impact of Theoden or Denathor or Faramir, I'd have either taken the time to look up their names or, at the very least, distinguished them as "The King of Rohan" or "Boromir's brother" instead of "Yeah, that guy".
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06/18/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Melyria
Not Gandalf. More like forgetting the name of Theoden or Denethor. I listed the characters I remembered, for Lord of the Rings Gandalf would certainly have qualified for the memorable list.


And if we were debating the actions, usefulness or impact of Theoden or Denathor or Faramir, I'd have either taken the time to look up their names or, at the very least, distinguished them as "The King of Rohan" or "Boromir's brother" instead of "Yeah, that guy".

You would have. I chose not to because I (Apparently wrongly?) trusted your intelligence.

If you'd prefer, I could have referred to them as:

"That idiot archangel that got captured uselessly and I had to save because Imperius is too busy yelling at me to do so."
or
"That other idiot archangel that was totally helpless and just gave great pep talks."

Would you prefer those labels? That's how I recall them.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/18/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Bianary


And if we were debating the actions, usefulness or impact of Theoden or Denathor or Faramir, I'd have either taken the time to look up their names or, at the very least, distinguished them as "The King of Rohan" or "Boromir's brother" instead of "Yeah, that guy".

You would have. I chose not to because I (Apparently wrongly?) trusted your intelligence.

If you'd prefer, I could have referred to them as:

"That idiot archangel that got captured uselessly and I had to save because Imperius is too busy yelling at me to do so."
or
"That other idiot archangel that was totally helpless and just gave great pep talks."

Would you prefer those labels? That's how I recall them.


1. So if an archangel gets captured uselessly, are you calling Tyrael in D2 an idiot?

2. Itharael basically says he has no free will. So he does as the scrolls of fate dictate. Its a trope of 'fate readers' that they tend to not act if fate shows them they don't act.

Really, those two tags you give them just kinda show you hate them unjustly.
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06/18/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Melyria
Really, those two tags you give them just kinda show you hate them unjustly.

You are reading too much into it.

I hate them exactly as much as they were of use to me in the story, where I was empathizing with my character.

They caused me trouble and were generally useless, therefore I do not like them. They wasted my time having to rescue them.

I don't know quite where you think you get the right to make judgments on whether my like or dislike is "just" or not from, but your opinion that you may do so is coloring your arguments and leading you to erroneous conclusions. I played the game. I listened to all the voice acting on my first run through. I read the chat log for the dialogue (And opened the journal pane) if I missed some of the dialogue because of combat or other distractions. I did my due diligence as a participant in the story, and I am "just" in liking or disliking who I choose to from that.

If there's a problem with that, if I should like those useless angels even though I don't, then it's a failure of the authors, not a fault of mine.
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 6/18/2012 4:43 PM PDT
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Yes, it is. That is Tyrael. That is all angels. Did you not pay attention to the part where they explicitely say that his iw how angels work? That the Angiris Council literally empowers the Angelic Host with their virtue?

All those mentions of Imperius emboldening his army. Auriel was lost. Which means one thing. That the entire angelic host cannot, as in being physically incapable, of feeling hope. All hope was extinguished from the Angelic host and (implied) humanity as well. Until you save her, at which point everyone bucks up.


I don't like it because previously Tyrael was the archangel that would do whatever he felt he needed to do no matter what, even if the rest of heaven didn't agree.

I don't care if they decided this is how angels work. I don't care how canonically correct it is. It doesn't change the fact that they ruined one of the most awesome characters in the series.

No, I'm not. Tyrael was generic, one dimensional and actually somewhat boring in D2. In D3 he actually has a character arc. Hell, in Tyrael's Sacrifice we learn more about what Tyrael is, what he believes in, what he thinks and his own personal inner workings than every single appearance he makes in D2 combined.


Everything from when he tore off his own wings and on was terrible.

Yes it was cool to see him actively standing up for himself against Imperius. Yes it did add a little more defiance and emphasis on this moment to have him tear off his wings, but ultimately that particular detail ruined his character too much.

The point is that he used to provide contrast and he used to serve a unique role in the story.
Edited by Khristophoro#1862 on 6/18/2012 4:55 PM PDT
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88 Human Death Knight
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06/18/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Melyria
I'm saying that not everything about D3's story is terrible. That it has its flaws, but the overall grade on it was 'mediocre' with a loss of potential. I am saying that overall, most people are overreacting and being irrational.


You strike me as the kind of person that just likes to be right all the time (I know because I am one of them).

Did you like Star Wars Episode 1 by any chance? Your stalwart defense of this game's story really sounds like the arguments i've heard people make defending it.

06/18/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Melyria
I'm also asking that people cut the writers a bit of slack. Not to forgive them for every thing wrong with the story but to not want to crucify them over every minor detail and nitpick.


With the time between D2 and D3, and the expectations held, this game shoudl have been damn near perfect.

The story was so laughably bad that its an insult. Pulpy story about killing demons? THAT ISNT DIABLO!!!! The developers came in and did whatever the hell they wanted, audience be damned, and thats pretty lame of them.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/18/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Khristophoro
I don't like it because previously Tyrael was the archangel that would do whatever he felt he needed to do no matter what, even if the rest of heaven didn't agree.


Tyrael had all hope erased from him. You can't really fight that. And did you not see the Act 1 cinematic, where he basically throws Imperius the middle finger and does his own thing?

06/18/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Khristophoro
I don't care if they decided this is how angels work. I don't care how canonically correct it is. It doesn't change the fact that they ruined one of the most awesome characters in the series.


So characters are not allowed to progress in any way? You really don't care if the story changes, even for the better, so long as Tyrael stays the same, boring, generic good is good bad is bad, type he was in D2?

06/18/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Khristophoro
Everything from when he tore off his own wings and on was terrible.


Why? Him becoming human did not change anything about him.

06/18/2012 04:46 PMPosted by Khristophoro
The point is that he used to provide contrast and he used to serve a unique role in the story.


Which was what? To be good? To be an angel? He was -boring-. He was practically a non-character.

06/18/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Draegoe
Did you like Star Wars Episode 1 by any chance? Your stalwart defense of this game's story really sounds like the arguments i've heard people make defending it.


Episode 1 had potential, it had some good elements, some nice things introduced, but suffered from a great degree of mishandling, bogged down in political drama and they tried to focus on a child character, which almost always fails simply due to failed delivery.

On its own, it just barely passes to be an 'okay' movie.

06/18/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Draegoe
With the time between D2 and D3, and the expectations held, this game shoudl have been damn near perfect.


So you're aware of basically the entire game development was slogged, restarted, paused, rewritten, etc? Are you aware of just how big a wrench Blizzard North's quitting threw into the Diablo 3 wheels?

06/18/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Draegoe
Pulpy story about killing demons? THAT ISNT DIABLO!!!!


... actually it is. Do you know what 'pulp' means in regards to fiction?

06/18/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Draegoe
The developers came in and did whatever the hell they wanted, audience be damned, and thats pretty lame of them.


The devs obviously are fans of the original games, due to some of the things they put into it.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
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Pulpy story about killing demons? THAT ISNT DIABLO!!!!


... actually it is. Do you know what 'pulp' means in regards to fiction?



I doubt he does..but I would love a little pulp in the story. The scoundrel is clearly a man in need.
Edited by Elkdrin#1701 on 6/18/2012 9:45 PM PDT
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06/18/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Melyria
The devs obviously are fans of the original games, due to some of the things they put into it.

There is a difference between being a fan, and being a fanboy.

The devs are obviously fanboys of the original games, and they filled this one with all the fanservice they thought everyone wanted.

It's the Farscape movie all over again.
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06/18/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Melyria
I don't like it because previously Tyrael was the archangel that would do whatever he felt he needed to do no matter what, even if the rest of heaven didn't agree.


Tyrael had all hope erased from him. You can't really fight that. And did you not see the Act 1 cinematic, where he basically throws Imperius the middle finger and does his own thing?

I don't care if they decided this is how angels work. I don't care how canonically correct it is. It doesn't change the fact that they ruined one of the most awesome characters in the series.


So characters are not allowed to progress in any way? You really don't care if the story changes, even for the better, so long as Tyrael stays the same, boring, generic good is good bad is bad, type he was in D2?

Everything from when he tore off his own wings and on was terrible.


Why? Him becoming human did not change anything about him.


Well you're completely ignoring that I pointed out how much Tyrael did for the story in his D2 form. You're focusing completely on your idea of what makes him a good character in a vacuum which is frankly small minded.

On a different note, this will be the last time I say anything to you. I've decided never to acknowledge your posts ever again. It should be obvious why. I hope others do as well so actual discussions can be allowed to happen.
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Not that many inconsistencies


this statement is incorrect. There were many MANY inconsistencies in the story. Hell, ACT 1 alone had a ton.

Now, yes, people say the story is not well told or executed (and in some parts it certainly was) but that doesn't mean the entire thing was botched


no, that is exactly what it means. you are just defending the blizzard writers for no reason.

With pushing story to the forefront and actually making it complex, beyond "Collect X, use X to kill Y, rinse repeat" Blizzard risks screwing up.


which they did terribly. MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE JUST DONE A SIMPLE STORY WELL INSTEAD OF A COMPLEX ONE POORLY!!! ARGGHGHGHHHHH!H!!!!!!

It isn't hard to make somebody mysterious and epic when he only speaks maybe 4 times in the entire game.


Maybe they should have had Tyrael only speak a few times then. What is your point? It was easy to be epic in D2 because they did things right but its really hard to do things epic in D3 because they did them wrong so it shouldnt be their fault?

You are basically saying that we should forgive the terrible job on the story because of how much more difficult it is? Do you even read your posts?


Great job dismissing every ignorant and nonsensical point that Melyria made.

I wish folks would respond to melyria with a quick LOL wow ignorance is bliss I supposse and move on. This waste of bandwidth should not be quoted or debated because he/she/it does not have the basic intelligence needed to engage in a meaningful, thought out discussion
Edited by Shingram#1112 on 6/19/2012 9:50 AM PDT
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06/18/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Melyria
But what do the fans think?


Do you really think that the 100 or so people that post on these forums are an accurate sample size?

Here's the thing. The vast majority of people who enjoy this game's story will not rush to the Story Forum to complain about it. They will continue to play the game and enjoy the story.

Do you not think Blizzard has the ability to find out what people think, aside from the forum? Because, frankly, the forums tend to draw people who want to complain and, thus, aren't a really good view into what the general public think.

This is like going to the complaint department of a store and asking how many people were happy with their customer service.


Does it imply that since the company has set up a complaint department, customer complaints are no longer their business?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
06/20/2012 07:11 AMPosted by joykafka


Do you really think that the 100 or so people that post on these forums are an accurate sample size?

Here's the thing. The vast majority of people who enjoy this game's story will not rush to the Story Forum to complain about it. They will continue to play the game and enjoy the story.

Do you not think Blizzard has the ability to find out what people think, aside from the forum? Because, frankly, the forums tend to draw people who want to complain and, thus, aren't a really good view into what the general public think.

This is like going to the complaint department of a store and asking how many people were happy with their customer service.


Does it imply that since the company has set up a complaint department, customer complaints are no longer their business?


Of course not. However if a million people buy your product and only 1000 come in with a complaint to the complaint department, that doesn't show there's a trend. .1% of the people have a complaint.

I'm saying that going to that complaint department and then asking the people there what they think will get you a skewed answer.
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74 Undead Mage
0
Posts: 2,359
06/19/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Shingram
melyria get a life for christs sake it's been several WEEKS now of you dominating every single post in the story section of the boards. Holy hell you're pathetic. Folks go check out Mel's post history. Sad pathetic human waste of life.


heh diablo 2 fanbois.
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Posts: 10,296
Whenever I read "Dominating", I think of Unreal Tournament.

Suffice to say, this sounds more like a compliment to me. XD
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf#1953 on 6/20/2012 8:18 AM PDT
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06/20/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Zong
melyria get a life for christs sake it's been several WEEKS now of you dominating every single post in the story section of the boards. Holy hell you're pathetic. Folks go check out Mel's post history. Sad pathetic human waste of life.


heh diablo 2 fanbois.


I am almost certain that Mel's is a paid drone on these boards - you know, the guys employed by companies who are to covertly control discussions, spreading viral marketing, and combating opposition with labels like "parrots", "fools", "ignorants" and such. All major organizations have quite a few of them, and it appears they are here as well. It's quite common practice - more than you'd believe.

No one can spend so much time on an internet forum defending utter garbage without changing an opinion a notch after so much time, especially under the weight of what is evidently wrong with this particular aspect of the game. Judging from the number of sociotechniques, false dychotomies and general strawman arguments in each post I say, it's best not to argue with him - it's a waste of breath.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
If I was paid to do that I'd be doing a poor job, given I've panned aspects of this game's story.

Unless you want to wrap that tinfoil a little tighter around your head, then you could claim its some clever double agent style ploy or something.

Edit: And you're calling me out on being on this forum? When you're on here complaining? Getting mad about video games, whining on the internet? How hypocritical is that?
Edited by Melyria#1246 on 6/20/2012 8:31 AM PDT
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