Diablo® III

Lets talk about the writers...

Don't sweat it, Mel: the same thing happened to me in the StarCraft II forums. :P
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74 Undead Mage
4670
06/20/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Mrowaksu


heh diablo 2 fanbois.


I am almost certain that Mel's is a paid drone on these boards - you know, the guys employed by companies who are to covertly control discussions, spreading viral marketing, and combating opposition with labels like "parrots", "fools", "ignorants" and such. All major organizations have quite a few of them, and it appears they are here as well. It's quite common practice - more than you'd believe.

No one can spend so much time on an internet forum defending utter garbage without changing an opinion a notch after so much time, especially under the weight of what is evidently wrong with this particular aspect of the game. Judging from the number of sociotechniques, false dychotomies and general strawman arguments in each post I say, it's best not to argue with him - it's a waste of breath.


ive been to many forums during my travels on the internet. in almost every one i always see idiots claiming so-and-so was paid by bioware/valve/blizzard/nintendo to defend the game. thats what dumb people say when they cant win a argument. they genurally ditch their arguments and just decide to accuse someone of being a spy sent to defend the comapnies game.

grow up bro.
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06/20/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Mrowaksu


heh diablo 2 fanbois.


I am almost certain that Mel's is a paid drone on these boards - you know, the guys employed by companies who are to covertly control discussions, spreading viral marketing, and combating opposition with labels like "parrots", "fools", "ignorants" and such. All major organizations have quite a few of them, and it appears they are here as well. It's quite common practice - more than you'd believe.

No one can spend so much time on an internet forum defending utter garbage without changing an opinion a notch after so much time, especially under the weight of what is evidently wrong with this particular aspect of the game. Judging from the number of sociotechniques, false dychotomies and general strawman arguments in each post I say, it's best not to argue with him - it's a waste of breath.


Whether or not Melyria gets payed or is affiliated with Blizzard, he/she is an absolute shill, and acts contradictory just to act contradictory. He/she HAS to be right. It's actually beginning to appear like something of a personality disorder.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/20/2012 08:36 AMPosted by ntrntslth
Whether or not Melyria gets payed or is affiliated with Blizzard, he/she is an absolute shill, and acts contradictory just to act contradictory. He/she HAS to be right. It's actually beginning to appear like something of a personality disorder.


And you're a liar and/or can't read, given you tried to say you read the code of conduct in another thread, yet couldn't see the clear violations of a thread.

You're just as much as a shill and bandwagoner as you claim I am, just for the opposite side. So blinded that you'll hurl insults and not rationality at people.

You'll defend a thread that had clear forum violations in it, but then blame blizzard for deleting it, all while saying it wasn't violating anything. You'll defend anything that tries to attack Blizzard, like any bandwagoner will, regardless of how rational, right or moral it is.

How are you any different than what you claim I am to be?
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Tyrael had all hope erased from him. You can't really fight that. And did you not see the Act 1 cinematic, where he basically throws Imperius the middle finger and does his own thing?


I've read this argument from you several times, Melyria, and I don't buy it.

The argument goes like this:

Angry Person - "It really pisses me off that Tyrael goes emo and quits! What the hell was the point of that?"
You - "Hope was lost! That's how the Archangels work!"

I have the following two problems with this argument:

1. Your explanation for why it happens is actually an explanation of how it happens, which is irrelevant to the point people are making. The fact that there is a "logical" (we'll get back to this in a second) explanation for HOW it happens does not explain WHY it happened. People are pissed off at its inclusion because it very much detracts from the character of Tyrael.

To draw a parallel, people sometimes say of the movie Serenity, "Why did Joss Whedon kill off Wash?!?!?!?!?" Your stock response to the "Tyrael turns into a sad-sack" complaint is the equivalent of answering the question of Wash's death with, "He got impaled. Did you expect him to live through that? Don't you know how spikes through the chest work?" It doesn't address WHY it was included (Serenity Answer: "To prove that the danger is real, and to give us a sense that there is real loss associated with heroic action.")

2. Even if we accept that the capture of Hope means that the angels lose hope, there is still a leap in logic that doesn't make sense to me. Hope is lost... Literally. Fine. I'm totally okay with that. But why does that necessitate quitting, especially in a battle like this?

Warriors without hope of success aren't usually quitters (to the contrary, they tend to fight more ferociously than anyone else), and I expect more from a stalwart defender like Tyrael. Neither the Tyrael of D2 nor the Tyrael of D3 is ever believable as an emo, "Boo hoo, what's the point?" quitter. Never. It is a radical and inexcusable inconsistency in his character.

Blizzard likes to toss in pop culture references. You know what the perfect one in that moment would have been? "Today is a good day to die." The Klingon mantra would have been pretty perfect for Tyrael in that situation.

Here's a re-write that I wrote on the fly. It took me all of 3 minutes to develop it.

Tyrael: "Nephalem, all Hope is lost. Imperius is right; my actions have doomed the Heavens. You should abandon this place while you still can. You will be needed when the Prime Evil returns to your world. If you stay, your death is certain."

PC: "But Tyrael, what about you?"

Tyrael: "My place is here, and while I cannot hope to win this battle, I will hold out for as long as I can. I chose to be mortal... Now the time has come to face the consequences of that choice."

*Tyrael runs off, or fights with us, or does SOMETHING*

PC: "No, my friend. You sacrificed to save our world. I will not abandon you now."

-----After the Fight-----

Tyrael: "Nephalem, you are not fled! Truly, you are an inspiration. Hope has been restored, and my bretheren and I are filled with a new sense of purpose. We may yet win the day.

(exposition on next quest ensues)

-----

Is it great writing? No. I'm not a writer (though I'm a more than decent plot editor). But at the very least it's true-to-character for a guy whose stock line seems to be, "We must act now, we have no time to lose."
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
1. Your explanation for why it happens is actually an explanation of how it happens, which is irrelevant to the point people are making. The fact that there is a "logical" (we'll get back to this in a second) explanation for HOW it happens does not explain WHY it happened. People are pissed off at its inclusion because it very much detracts from the character of Tyrael.


Actually, Book of Cain outright says that the Angiris Council's power flows through the Angelic host. For instance, Imperius simply existing emboldens the rest of the angelic host, which is vital in the middle of war.

2. Even if we accept that the capture of Hope means that the angels lose hope, there is still a leap in logic that doesn't make sense to me. Hope is lost... Literally. Fine. I'm totally okay with that. But why does that necessitate quitting, especially in a battle like this?

Warriors without hope of success aren't usually quitters (to the contrary, they tend to fight more ferociously than anyone else), and I expect more from a stalwart defender like Tyrael. Neither the Tyrael of D2 nor the Tyrael of D3 is ever believable as an emo, "Boo hoo, what's the point?" quitter. Never. It is a radical and inexcusable inconsistency in his character.


Er... no. The point was that without hope despair sets in. Given that Rakanoth is the Lord of Despair and all that. Its a demoralizing effect.

Hopelessness, true hopelessness, does not embolden fighters. There is hope in something, a slim chance of victory, the chance somebody could escape and survive, the hope of going out and being remembered as a brave warrior, something. True hopelessness is not something that makes you want to fight.

Hopelessness is defined as the despair that sets in when you abandon hope of success.

To be truly hopeless snuffs out all thoughts of victory.
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...I think this once again boils down to poor execution. Melyria's right, the justifications are all there, and they're all good, interesting reasons why this might happen.

But when it actually does happen it doesn't feel good or interesting. It's abrupt and feels out of character. Instead of feeling like a natural progression of the story, it feels like something the writers just tossed in without really thinking about it. Even though they had the lore to back them up, the quality of the actual writing didn't match up.

Interesting story, rather sloppily done. Can we all agree on that much at least?

(And Xanth, I do really like that dialogue you put together. I'd have been very happy to see something like that in-game.)
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...I think this once again boils down to poor execution. Melyria's right, the justifications are all there, and they're all good, interesting reasons why this might happen.

But when it actually does happen it doesn't feel good or interesting. It's abrupt and feels out of character. Instead of feeling like a natural progression of the story, it feels like something the writers just tossed in without really thinking about it. Even though they had the lore to back them up, the quality of the actual writing didn't match up.

Interesting story, rather sloppily done. Can we all agree on that much at least?

(And Xanth, I do really like that dialogue you put together. I'd have been very happy to see something like that in-game.)


A thousand times this. I'm gonna make my own post about this shortly I think, but suffice it to say that most people on this forum don't seem to understand that the most important part of what makes a story good or not is HOW it is told, not what the subject matter is and if there are plot holes and such.

Also, @everyone: I disagree pretty vehemently with a lot of Melyria's sentiments too, but getting personal on a forum about a video game story is pretty effing low. If you want to rip apart someone's argument that's fine, but there's no need to bring in insulting people personally.
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06/20/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Melyria
1. Your explanation for why it happens is actually an explanation of how it happens, which is irrelevant to the point people are making. The fact that there is a "logical" (we'll get back to this in a second) explanation for HOW it happens does not explain WHY it happened. People are pissed off at its inclusion because it very much detracts from the character of Tyrael.


Actually, Book of Cain outright says that the Angiris Council's power flows through the Angelic host. For instance, Imperius simply existing emboldens the rest of the angelic host, which is vital in the middle of war.

2. Even if we accept that the capture of Hope means that the angels lose hope, there is still a leap in logic that doesn't make sense to me. Hope is lost... Literally. Fine. I'm totally okay with that. But why does that necessitate quitting, especially in a battle like this?

Warriors without hope of success aren't usually quitters (to the contrary, they tend to fight more ferociously than anyone else), and I expect more from a stalwart defender like Tyrael. Neither the Tyrael of D2 nor the Tyrael of D3 is ever believable as an emo, "Boo hoo, what's the point?" quitter. Never. It is a radical and inexcusable inconsistency in his character.


Er... no. The point was that without hope despair sets in. Given that Rakanoth is the Lord of Despair and all that. Its a demoralizing effect.

Hopelessness, true hopelessness, does not embolden fighters. There is hope in something, a slim chance of victory, the chance somebody could escape and survive, the hope of going out and being remembered as a brave warrior, something. True hopelessness is not something that makes you want to fight.

Hopelessness is defined as the despair that sets in when you abandon hope of success.

To be truly hopeless snuffs out all thoughts of victory.


And you would know what true hopelessness does how exactly?

The empirical evidence points to the opposite. Men facing certain doom have performed incredible feats. Hope for survival was lost, men has resigned to their death.

Furthermore, the implication that Hope is lost, due to the way that the angels work, implies that Hope is lost from the world since Hope is brought into the world through the aspect of Hope. How would the PC summon the capability to fight the insurmountable odds when apparently no one is capable of doing anything.

Circular logic is circular. D3 story is fail.
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06/20/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Covered
How would the PC summon the capability to fight the insurmountable odds when apparently no one is capable of doing anything.


Because the Angel of Arrogance was alive and well.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/20/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Covered
And you would know what true hopelessness does how exactly?


Are you familiar of the effect of extreme demoralization on troops?

The empirical evidence points to the opposite. Men facing certain doom have performed incredible feats. Hope for survival was lost, men has resigned to their death.


Really? So these people had absolutely no hopes whatsoever? Be it that they die for God? Or that their families get some time bought? Or that they can hopefully take down as many people as possible with them?

Furthermore, the implication that Hope is lost, due to the way that the angels work, implies that Hope is lost from the world since Hope is brought into the world through the aspect of Hope. How would the PC summon the capability to fight the insurmountable odds when apparently no one is capable of doing anything.


You're a nephalem? And we don't know the fullest effect on humanity, but we know the angelic host is severely effected.

Circular logic is circular. D3 story is fail.


And you just claim yourself right, with no reasoning, citations or examples and think yourself correct.
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Seriously are you guys argung that D3's writing isn't complete !@#$?

Look at this from Diablo 1.


I can see what you see not—
Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone,
Whispering their hidden song.
Then you see what cannot be—
Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind,
Cast down into the Halls of the Blind.


Compare that to "YOU'LL NEVER DEFEAT MY HELL RIFTS RAAAAR"
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06/20/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Melyria
And you would know what true hopelessness does how exactly?


Are you familiar of the effect of extreme demoralization on troops?

The empirical evidence points to the opposite. Men facing certain doom have performed incredible feats. Hope for survival was lost, men has resigned to their death.


Really? So these people had absolutely no hopes whatsoever? Be it that they die for God? Or that their families get some time bought? Or that they can hopefully take down as many people as possible with them?

Furthermore, the implication that Hope is lost, due to the way that the angels work, implies that Hope is lost from the world since Hope is brought into the world through the aspect of Hope. How would the PC summon the capability to fight the insurmountable odds when apparently no one is capable of doing anything.


You're a nephalem? And we don't know the fullest effect on humanity, but we know the angelic host is severely effected.

Circular logic is circular. D3 story is fail.


And you just claim yourself right, with no reasoning, citations or examples and think yourself correct.


I don't think YOU are aware of the effects of doomed to die situations on soldiers, which is the reference people were making with "hopelessness." Are you arguing against yourself again or are you just an idiot? I'm leaning with idiot.

Your reason for the lack of effect on the PC is he is Nephalem? You realize that you sound like a 8 year old playing super hero's who claims "nu-uh, your mega deth ray didn't kill me, my super shield is stronger"

But you read all the retconns and all the !@#$ Blizzard spews. So yeah, I blieve you truly think that going back in the past and changing things to completely avoid logical conclusions is you. Circular logic is circular.
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I was a bit on the harsh side originally so I'll just leave -

I hope they pick things up in the expansion. There are some nice things in the game design with how the books and minor characters say different things in different locations. That is definitely something they could build more on.
Edited by Marakesh#1728 on 7/26/2012 4:16 PM PDT
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The game itself is kind of mediocre.
The story is just plain bad and full of lousy writing. It's written for 7 year olds...
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The story is awful and those who defend it are wrong. Badly recycled villians with no real reason for doing anything, Deckard went out like a wuss (hes OP to survive so long only to go out like that? Really?). Its hack writing in it's most base and insulting form. If you seriously "enjoyed" the D3 story i fully expect to see seasons of jersey shore on your walls.
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06/18/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Zong
heh diablo 2 fanboys thinking d2 story was any better than this. i dunno what people expect out of a blizzard game. d3 to me feels like a regular blizzard story. cheesy dialogue, hammy people and all that jazz.


This was only true after the WoW Wrath of the Lich King years...
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90 Human Death Knight
9600
Story was terrible to begin with, and the way they portrayed it and its characters made it even worse. Coming from leveling an operative in swtor to leveling a barbarian in D3 felt like i traded in hemingway for a highlights magazine.

I dig the gameplay and the abilties, game plays smooth, but anyone defending this corny bs story is either sheltered or 11.
Edited by Rimez#1460 on 6/27/2012 4:56 AM PDT
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Er... no. The point was that without hope despair sets in. Given that Rakanoth is the Lord of Despair and all that. Its a demoralizing effect.

Hopelessness, true hopelessness, does not embolden fighters. There is hope in something, a slim chance of victory, the chance somebody could escape and survive, the hope of going out and being remembered as a brave warrior, something. True hopelessness is not something that makes you want to fight. Hopelessness is defined as the despair that sets in when you abandon hope of success. To be truly hopeless snuffs out all thoughts of victory.


I found this to be an interesting debate... minus the entire name calling debacle, of course.

*Disclaimer: all political and social issues aside, this is meant to be an example of a historical parallel to the discussion at hand.*

I'd point you to the example of the Japanese occupation at the end of WWII. The US had just won a number of land and sea engagements and was pressing toward the Japanese homeland.

By all historical accounts, the Japanese leadership knew they were losing. They ordered all their troops to dig in and their propaganda machine cranked out stories of torture, mutilation and death under US capture.

These men were reduced to living in caves, dugouts... anywhere they could possibly hide from aerial fire. They rushed US troops with rusty knives and sticks… That would fit my definition of hopeless. With no options, no hope of success, they still fought on. The rate of attrition to recapture some of these islands in the South Pacific was so atrocious; the US leadership publically justified the use of the atomic bomb to prevent further loss of life to US troops.

So they really had no hope of victory… no advantages… no reason to keep fighting other than a fear of a slow death… but they still fought. There’s a very heart wrenching event, Marpi Point, where the civilians living on one of the islands threw themselves to their deaths, rather than be captured. Hopeless? Yes. Terrorized beyond all reason? Yes. But they were defiant until the end.

*End Disclaimer*

And besides… Tyrael may have still had some of his angelic power, but is he not now a human? Why would Auriel’s capture effect him, when Diablo’s attack on the Crystal Arch not?

In game terms, Tyrael was very powerful (pre-patch) and the game designers didn’t want to give the players too much of an advantage… but at least make it so he has his own set of priorities. Not just the “oh, whoa is me!” Tyrael that we got.

Again, my two cents.
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