Diablo® III

Why is spray of teeth better than devouring..

Posts: 1,446
arrow? I saw athene chose this over devouring. Is it because spray of teeth do AoE damage?

Also which caltrap do you guys find most effective? Torturous ground, Jagged Spikes, or the Crit chance one? I been using the crit chance one because my crit chance is painfully low. (around 20%ish)
Edited by Targaryen#1482 on 6/22/2012 7:22 PM PDT
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With a build like his (~50% crit) it will proc on half your attacks. That equates to a flat 25% increase in damage (50% chance to proc 50% damage = 25%) to the base hungering arrow so it has great single target damage and also does AoE.
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I use Jagged Spikes Caltrops. The added damage is very nice, and, with a LoH weapon, helps immensely on Reflect Damage mobs
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Posts: 1,446
ahhh I see now, better than that 35% chance the arrow will pierce and do an extra 70% damage right? So basically 50% x 50% >>>> 35% x 70%.

edit: actually 35% x 70% is around 26% but it doesn't have that AoE damage

But say with someone with lower crit chance who relies on sharpshooter, would you recommend devouring arrow instead?
Edited by Targaryen#1482 on 6/22/2012 7:30 PM PDT
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Its kind of a tradeoff because SS + spray of teeth will increase your initial bursts by even more damage, but I wouldn't recommend sharpshooter to someone who has high base crit in the first place because if you have decent base crit you'll be constantly resetting SS making it's bonus float around 3-6%

I'd say just play with it and see what you like. If you have >150k dps during that first SS second then you might be killing stuff so fast your non-SS damage doesnt even matter.
Edited by JahIthBer#1813 on 6/22/2012 7:35 PM PDT
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.35*.7=.245, considering initial pierce chance, but this is essentially a flat chance.

Spray of teeth scales with Crit chance, the higher your crit chance, the better an increase it is, up to a theoretical maximum of 50%.

If their was any way to increase the pierce chance of hungering arrow (i don't understand why I haven't seen any +pierce chance to hungering arrow mods in game yet) than this would change greatly.
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Posts: 1,446
I have 160k DPS with SS on full charge. basically killing enemies at the same rate speed with either devouring or spray of teeth, only difference is spray of teeth does AoE damage, so the slight advantage goes to SoT?

What about single enemies?

Edit: thanks for fixing my calculation MDragoon, so either way, SoT wins because it does .05% more damage and has AoE

officially switched from DA to Sot. This also means I have to use the bait caltrap to help with my low crit chance :(
Edited by Targaryen#1482 on 6/22/2012 8:32 PM PDT
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Posts: 16
The math would indicate that devouring is in fact better for single target than SoT.
All of these stem from the knowing how to sum an infinite amount of values.

The no-rune hungering arrow has 115%wd with 35% chance to pierce.
Expected %wd is then the chance for damage to occur, multiplied by the damage that would be caused if it did occur. The first shot is guaranteed (115%), the second hit of damage from that same shot only occurs if you successfully roll on that 35%... (115 * .35). The third piece of damage from that same single shot is (115 * .35 * .35), and this goes on.

---> ∑(115 *.35^n), from n=0 to infinite. 115 is constant, pull it out.
---> 115 * ∑(.35^n), from n=0 to infinite.
This will give us the expected %weapon damage of no-rune hungering arrow. We can look at crit, cd, attacks per sec, and actual weapon damage rolls separately.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expected damage: %wd only

Puncturing arrow: 115%, 50% chance to pierce
115 * ∑(.5^n), from n=0 to infinite.
pretty easy to calc ---> 230% weapon dmg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cinder arrow: 115% + 35%, 35% chance to pierce & hit again, 150% per hit, NOT ALL UPFRONT, I assume full burning dmg is done each time.
150 * ∑(.35^n), from n=0 to infinite.
another easy calculation ---> 230.8% weapon dmg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shatter_Shot: 115%, 35%p, splits into 3 on successful pierce.
Single target: Only one of the three hits if only one target. That is, acts like no-rune hungering arrow. --> 176.9
Full efficiency ---> limited by number of mobs, etc. Can go into more detail if you want.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Devouring Arrow: Each pierce does an addition 70% dmg.
Two ways of thinking of this: 1) 115% + 70%PerPierce
2) 115 x 1.7 per pierce

1) 115 x ∑[.35^n x (1+.7n)] from n=0 to inf. ----> 243.6%
2) ∑[(115+70n) x .35^n] ------> 234.9%
I find that (1) is more likely to be the mechanic than (2)... I dunno.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spray of Teeth: 115%, 35%p, crits cause 50%wd in area.
Single Target: ∑([115+(50*CritChance)] x .35^n), n=0 to inf //50 is the 50%wd from rune
10% CC ----> 184.6%
20% CC ----> 192.3%
25% CC ----> 196.2%
33% CC ----> 202.3%
40% CC ----> 207.7%
50% CC ----> 215.4%
100% CC ----> 253.8%
(note - CritChance = CC = is decimal version. 50% crit = 0.5)
Multi-Target: +50% WD per additional target in radius.
Edited by Axlor#1961 on 6/22/2012 9:25 PM PDT
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base hungering arrow dmg = 115%, accounting for up to infinite pierces 115/(1-.35) = 177%

i have 42% crit so spray of teeth will add on average .42* 50% weapon damage = 21% weapon damage. per target.

so hitting one target, base hungering arrow with spray of teeth rune will do 115%+21% = 136% weapon damage
and accounting for up to infinite pierces, 136%/.65 = 209%

two targets accounting for pierces (115%+2*21%)/.65 = 241.5% which is now roughly equal to devouring arrow (devouring arrow is 243% weapon dmg).

so if you have 42% crit spray of teeth is almost equal to devouring arrow if two targets are in range of the spray aoe, and better than devouring with 3+ in range. single target it will only do 86% the damage devouring would do.
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Posts: 16
The draw of SoT (and shatter shot to a less extent) is that it scales pretty well with multiple target while still being good for single target. If you were speccing to fight single mob (like siegebreaker or something), devouring would be better. In reality however, spray of teeth will likely be a better choice because of potential damage when killing trash packs or grouped champion packs.

Spray of teeth scales really well with critical hit chance also, since SoT procs more often the more crit you have, and the increased crit causes more damage based on crit damage.
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The draw of SoT (and shatter shot to a less extent) is that it scales pretty well with multiple target while still being good for single target. If you were speccing to fight single mob (like siegebreaker or something), devouring would be better. In reality however, spray of teeth will likely be a better choice because of potential damage when killing trash packs or grouped champion packs.

Spray of teeth scales really well with critical hit chance also, since SoT procs more often the more crit you have, and the increased crit causes more damage based on crit damage.

This..

I think spray must be the superior choice for practical reasons after looking in this thread, and I've been using devouring all this time for no reason, lol.

I just thought:
White mobs: devouring arrow's damage is wasted because they have low hp, and spray is obviously better because you fight so many at once anyway.
Elites: I am always fighting 2+ at once. If there is just one it is probably already <25% from aoeing the others down, and one by itself is easy anyway so whatever.
Bosses: Easy even after 1.0.3, I can live with the big damage loss of 14%. I don't even know if it's worth having to do the quests / not have all the waypoints straight away etc. to get the few extra rares off ghom and cydaea.
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Posts: 1,446
Wow good insights, we have quite a few admirable math majors here. I appreciate it.

Also when PVP comes out, which do you guys think is the more viable option?
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Wow good insights, we have quite a few admirable math majors here. I appreciate it.

Also when PVP comes out, which do you guys think is the more viable option?


Devouring will be king in PvP. Any team that stands clumped up enough to get hit with spray of teeth is bad.
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Posts: 1,446
Wow good insights, we have quite a few admirable math majors here. I appreciate it.

Also when PVP comes out, which do you guys think is the more viable option?


Devouring will be king in PvP. Any team that stands clumped up enough to get hit with spray of teeth is bad.


lol good point.
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Nevermind. Got it.
Edited by AntiGrav1ty#2659 on 6/23/2012 2:17 PM PDT
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Not sure if my math is right on this, but scatter shot would by far do the most damage to groups of monsters right?

177% to first target
131% to monsters 2 and 3 if the arrow splits: (115%/(1-.1225))
The arrow already had to split once to hit monsters 2 and 3 so the expected probability that it would split again is .35*.35 = 12.25% right?

So if you're fighting elites it seems like scatter shot could do way more damage than SoT. Even with 50% crit chance and hitting 3 monsters, SoT would be expected to do 292% damage: (115%+3*25%)/(1-.35)

Scatter shot would do 177% + 131% + 131% = 439% right?

SoT would be more versatile, however, because it would do more damage against single target than scatter shot, as well as do AoE damage against groups, but it wouldn't do as much AoE damage as scatter shot.
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2 Dwarf Priest
0
Posts: 1,597
This is a necro but I'll bite.

When shatter splits, the three arrows might not hit things because they don't home like the initial shot does. They shoot off at a specific and constant angle every time. Unless the mobs are in a "flying V", shatter won't hit them when it actually shatters.

SoT needs 36% crit to be worth it for multiple targets. At 86% crit it becomes better than DA single target. SoT explodes in a circle and hits everything in that circle. With shatter you need a good amount of luck for it to work for the mobs to be lined up for the arrows.
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This is old, but just something i observed. The SoT is triggered at crit, and therefore the 50% additional damage is based on crit hit as well (this is from what I observed from my dh, correct me if I am wrong). Because of this, we cannot simply calculate it's effective damage by ∑([115+(50*CritChance)] x .35^n). In my opinion we need to split out base damage and critical damage for all cases:

assuming: C = crit chance, D = crit damage multiplier
---------------------------------------------
No Rune: ∑([115((1-C) + CD)] x .35^n) = 1.77[(1-C)+CD]
---------------------------------------------
Punc Arrow: ∑([115((1-C) + CD)] x .5^n) = 2.30[(1-C) + CD]
---------------------------------------------
Cinder: ∑([150((1-C) + CD)] x .35^n) = 2.31[(1-C) + CD]
---------------------------------------------
Dev Arrow: ∑([115((1-C) + CD)] x .35^n x (1+0.7n)) = 2.43[(1-C) + CD]
---------------------------------------------
SoT: ∑([115+((1-C) + CD + 0.5CD)] x .35^n) = 1.77[(1-C) + CD + 0.5 CD]
---------------------------------------------
Since C and D has to be same to compare them, we can assign (1-C)+CD = R to beautify the equation:

No Rune: 1.77R
Punc Arrow: 2.30R
Cinder: 2.31R
Dev Arrow: 2.43R
SoT: 1.77R + 0.885CD

without looking at SoT we can deduce that Dev Arrow is the best against a single target as it has the highest value. But considering critical chances and damage, as long as SoT having higher than 2.43R, it'll outperform Dev Arrow even at single target:

0.885CD > 0.66R
0.885CD > 0.66(1-C+CD)

D > (1-C)/(0.34C)

In other words, it says that as long as critical hit damage multiplier (aka your crit dam + 100%) is higher than the above expression, the SoT will outperform Dev Arrow. lets look at a few different value of C (crit chance)

10% CC ---> D > 2640% (2540% increase CHD)
20% CC ---> D > 1176% (1076% increase CHD)
30% CC ---> D > 686% (586% increase CHD)
40% CC ---> D > 441% (341% increase CHD)
50% CC ---> D > 294% (194% increase CHD)

comments are welcome =)
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Wow hella necro... let it die in peace.
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