Diablo® III

New Legacy Mode!

What's wrong with Diablo 3 right now?

The Real Money Auction House and Gold Auction House. And don't tell me that "it's optional, don't like it, don't use it." Because it's not truly optional. Sure, I'm not forced to use either of the Auction Houses. In the same sense, I'm not "forced" to even play the game. But it is hardly "optional." Let me elaborate.

The Diablo series has always been about two things. Killing monsters to find better equipment, and using that better equipment to kill more monsters. The basis for this type of game play is the loot drop rate. Much has been made of this drop rate as of late, and this highlights its importance to this type of game. If drop rates are too low, finding better gear takes too long, and those moments of exhilaration when you find something good come too few and far between. If the drop rates are too high, better gear is found too quickly, and the game loses its purpose. In Diablo 1 and 2, drop rates were set according to the idea that the only place for getting better gear was through random drops. Yes, a trading economy existed in Diablo 2, but it wasn't efficient. You had to first figure out what gear you wanted. Then you had to find someone with that gear. Then you had to find gear to trade for the gear you wanted. All of this took time and effort, and as such it was not necessarily an alternative to finding gear through killing monsters, but rather a supplement.

Diablo 3 has made "trading" (through the GAH or RMAH) too efficient. When Auction Houses are set up in-game, Blizzard must accommodate for this method of acquiring new gear by adjusting the drop rates. Drop rates that would be perfect if farming were the only (or primary) method of acquisition are too high when the Auction Houses are taken into consideration. The likelihood of getting an upgrade through farming has to be adjusted down, otherwise the Auction House would be flooded with quality items. It would be too easy to get gear upgrades overall, even though getting gear upgrades purely through farming would be just right. The game would become stale, as gear would be worthless.

I propose another mode for Diablo 3. We have regular and hardcore, with hardcore having some restrictions on Auction House use. I suggest a third mode with no Auction House functionality whatsoever, and to accommodate for this, higher drop rates overall. We could call it "Legacy" mode. Trading could exist in much the fashion of Diablo 2, but would be unregulated. There could be a warning when creating a Legacy character that "any items lost due to trading will NOT EVER NEVER EVER NEVER be reimbursed." And items could only be traded with other Legacy characters. The entire ecosystem would need to be completely isolated from the Auction Houses.

TL;DR Auction Houses are too efficient, we need a mode without AH access

Also, if this idea has been suggested before, my apologies. And this is just my 2 pennies. Any constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. For those of you who instead prefer to say something like "go back to wow" or "don't like it, don't play" or "butt hurt" or any other senseless jibber jabber, that's cool, just as long as you realize that you're not a part of the conversation.

EDIT: If you agree with this post, press Like! Lets get our voices heard!
Edited by Skeletor#1740 on 6/29/2012 1:16 PM PDT
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06/29/2012 09:36 AMPosted by Skeletor
In Diablo 1 and 2, drop rates were set according to the idea that the only place for getting better gear was through random drops.


This is also the case in D3. Then they added a way to get that gear in 1/100 of the time it would to grind for the gear. So yes AH is the problem. It basically negates any drop rates. Before drop rates did not matter because if some random person on the east coast found the item yo uwere looking for, you never knew. Now it takes you exactly 1 minute to find the item and another 30 seconds to get it. Why grind for gear?

Full disclosure. I only play with found gear and have not as much as opened the AH yet. I find upgrades about every 2- 3 days of casual gaming.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10430
I suggest a third mode with no Auction House functionality whatsoever, and to accommodate for this, higher drop rates overall. We could call it "legacy" mode. Trading could exist in much the fashion of Diablo 2, but would be unregulated. There could be a warning when creating a Legacy character that "any items lost due to trading will NOT EVER NEVER EVER NEVER be reimbursed." And items could only be traded with other Legacy characters. The entire ecosystem would need to be completely isolated from the Auction Houses.


I (and the group I play with) could get behind this idea. Right now we are extremely unhappy with the drop rates being tied to what's on the AH. We want to be able to play, get drops and move on. I would prefer to not use the AH for gear. Buying my gear just doesn't tickle me, I want to go out and slay things and see the goodies drop. I play in a 3 man group, we do trade items between ourselves if we get a drop that's good for the other players. That's cool.
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06/29/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Rofladin
If you want to play without ah, you can, but it will take many weeks, possibly months to farm out the gear. And the gear is out there.


Again, as I stated in the OP, I am aware that no one is "forcing" me to use the AH's. But the fact that they exist is impacting my gameplay if I decide not to use them. This is a choice. Diablo 3 was designed with the AH's in mind, and drop rates are set accordingly. Diablo 3 was not designed as a super difficult game whereby you could ease the difficulty by utilizing the AH's. Diablo 3 was designed to be a difficult game when all aspects were utilized appropriately (including the AH's). My argument is that the AH's are too efficient, and that drop rates are too low to find upgrades at a reasonable rate. Yes, I could take weeks to find an upgrade, but that is not fun. I want upgrades faster, and I don't want to sell the gear I do find for gold, then use that gold to buy upgrades. I like the sound gear makes when it goes "tink" and hits the ground. I don't care for the sound the Auction House makes when I buyout an item.

06/29/2012 09:43 AMPosted by Rofladin
In a nutshell: rmah is cheating at solitaire, theres nothing after you win, just enjoy the grind


I desperately want to enjoy the grind, but it is too slow. Because the drop rates aren't designed to "just enjoy the grind."
Edited by Skeletor#1740 on 6/29/2012 9:54 AM PDT
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06/29/2012 09:57 AMPosted by Rofladin
So your problem is not AH nor RMAH, your problem is that there is no "interesting common" items to keep you playing.


No, that's not my problem. My problem is that gear upgrades don't come fast enough because of the RMAH/AH. Of course, I am in favor of more interesting gear as well. I appreciate your suggestions, but that is not the direction I was going with this thread. The RMAH/AH may be fun, but they should not have such a large impact on players who don't want to use them. As I'm sure you've seen other people post, I want to play Diablo where I kill monsters for loot and use loot to kill monsters. I don't want to play Auction House Tycoon (even if it is fun).

06/29/2012 09:57 AMPosted by Rofladin
Please note I am not bashing you


Noted, and I appreciate your suggestions. There are many things wrong with Diablo 3, but I chose to focus on the AH's.
Edited by Skeletor#1740 on 6/29/2012 10:05 AM PDT
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06/29/2012 09:50 AMPosted by Skeletor
Diablo 3 was designed to be a difficult game when all aspects were utilized appropriately (including the AH's).


Inferno =/= Diablo 3 for most people.
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I agree we need better loot with more variety. We also need to take a hard look at the skill system. Just so we stay on topic though, I for one am in favor of a Legacy mode with no Auction House access and therefore increased item drop rates. I'm tired of endless farming runs to get equipment to sell on AH to get gold so I can buy one piece I do need. Then I find due to inflation my 300k I had that was to little, one week later at 1.5 mil... I'm still to poor. The game isn't currently ran by Blizzard it is ran by those who control market prices. I didn't buy the game to play a real life simulation of the economy.

Legacy Mode!!
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06/29/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Rofladin
If good items dropped in solo mode often, the ah would be flooded with best items, like 32% stormshield, which is enough to beat inferno easily, and kill the game because there is no incentive to keep playing.


This is precisely my point! I want a solo mode where good items do drop often, and I don't have to worry about flooding the AH because there IS not AH in "Legacy" mode. We are both arguing the same point. I say that good equipment doesn't drop at a fast enough pace to keep the game interesting for people who don't want to use the AH's. My solution is to implement a mode where the AH's are not accessible. You say that good equipment doesn't drop at a fast enough pace to keep the game interesting, but your solution is to prevent people from selling certain gear on the AH. I don't believe this would work. The gear, even if it was account bound, would still have to drop at a slow pace. If I were playing Diablo 3 and consistently got two types of gear, the first had boring subpar stats, dropped at a slow pace, and could be sold on the AH, and the second had exciting stats, and dropped at a faster pace, but couldn't be sold, I would never use the AH.

06/29/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Grashnak
Inferno =/= Diablo 3 for most people.


I beg to differ. I would argue that Inferno does equal Diablo 3 for most people (or rather it is the other way around, Diablo 3 does equal Inferno for most people). Inferno is the "endgame" of Diablo 3. It is the difficulty where the best gear drops, and the majority of players will spend the majority of their time. Also, people who either don't make it to Inferno difficulty or don't play once they get to Inferno difficulty would benefit from a Legacy mode, as drops would be increased throughout all difficulties.

Also, simply making a blunt statement with no argument to back it up really doesn't add much to the discussion.
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06/29/2012 11:22 AMPosted by Rofladin
If we all played alone, the game would be no different than playing Diablo 2 with hero editor, sure it's fun to get geared fast, beat the game over and over, and never get items that are unique, because you've seen it all, and can get anything.


This statement makes no sense. I'm not advocating that items should drop at such a blindingly fast rate as to make the game pointless. I'm suggesting that items should drop at a faster rate than now because the very efficient and effective method of obtaining items that is the AH would no longer exist for those characters.

06/29/2012 11:22 AMPosted by Rofladin
Essentially, the point is to gear up the whole community so that we can PvP/run around doing fun stuff/etc.


PvP does not exist, and the form it takes when (if) it is implemented is unknown, so it can't really be speculated upon.

Legacy mode is simply out of the question.

It neglects global economy and that's the whole point of Diablo 3. You gear up, then you look for items other people would want.


My issue is that while the "whole point" of Diablo 3 may be to find gear other people can use, and then sell that gear for gold, then use the gold to buy gear you can use, that detracts from the excitement of finding gear that YOU can use, and then, instead of selling that gear, USING that gear. You seem to be saying that while Diablo 1 was "kill monsters, find upgrades, use upgrades to kill more monsters," and Diablo 2 was "kill monsters, find upgrades, use upgrades to kill more monsters," Diablo 3 is now "kill monsters, find salable items, sell items, buy upgrades, use upgrades to kill more monsters." They both have the same results, but I don't enjoy the intermediate step required in Diablo 3. And I understand that Diablo 3 is a different game from Diablo 1 and 2. I am simply suggesting an addition to the game that I think would make it more enjoyable for a large group of people.

Your argument seems to be that a Legacy mode is not an option because it's not already included as part of the game. I am suggesting that it be ADDED as an option, and that addition would require changes. And perhaps I'm the only person who likes the idea of upgrading my gear through drops instead of through gold.

As a side note, if you think that the introduction of a Legacy mode where players were isolated from the AH's would destroy the purpose of Diablo 3 by ruining the AH's, then that suggests that a large number of people would prefer to play a Legacy mode instead of the AH mode we currently have.
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Here's the basic contradiction: what "fun" is even playing the game if you don't get the interesting stuff dropping? Why bother? Even if you blew hundreds of $ to get the best stuff and could, perhaps, make a go at surviving anything in Infero, what's the point if all you get after that is more junk?

Blizzard clearly got taken over by suits whose idea of playing games is Tetris, if that. Bad businessmen at that because they've taken an epic franchise and murdered it out of sheer stupidity.
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06/29/2012 11:42 AMPosted by Prometheus
Blizzard clearly got taken over by suits whose idea of playing games is Tetris, if that. Bad businessmen at that because they've taken an epic franchise and murdered it out of sheer stupidity.


That may or may not be the reality of the situation. Perhaps they simply thought that since the trading economy existed in Diablo 2, they could improve upon it and streamline it in Diablo 3. But I think Diablo 3 is too streamlined. I think it needs less structure, and a little more chaos.

And this is not an attack on you, but I don't want this to turn into a "we hate Blizzard" rant. There are enough of those going around the forums for everyone. Although, perhaps if I had thrown in something about calling the FBI, or boycotting the AH's, or made some witty comment about trolls, then this thread would have gotten more attention than it has.
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06/29/2012 11:27 AMPosted by Skeletor
Also, people who either don't make it to Inferno difficulty or don't play once they get to Inferno difficulty would benefit from a Legacy mode, as drops would be increased throughout all difficulties.


The people above will always be the majority. There is no way around that.

Drops are just fine in lower difficulties in my opinion. Keeps the game challenging for an average player like myself and hard core gamers can just fly through it.
It would be fun to find legendaries while you are leveling, but you still level so quick it doesn't seem worth it hunt for those.

I guess the catch is raising drop rates does not change anything as long as you can acess 100,000 other players' drops in 3 minutes. Only way to make personal drops meaningfull would be by removing the AH. No matter what the drop rates are there is no way the game can be tuned so that on any given run you would find even a single better item than any of the other million players who might be posting their wares on the AH.
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06/29/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Grashnak
Only way to make personal drops meaningfull would be by removing the AH.


Exactly my point. And I'm not trying to remove the AH for everyone, or even remove it for anyone. I'm simply suggesting that a game mode without access to the AH would be enjoyed by many. And it appears that you feel the same way.
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There was a reason D2 lasted as long as it HAS. The system was enjoyable. In this case I can see they attempted to better the trading system, which they did! In game trading system is far better than what D2 had. Why use it though? The AH lets you stay isolated and just mindlessly farm gold or items in the hope of being able to BUY gear you want.

That being said, I've seen blues (and I don't wish to find posts to link to) say that they are trying to make adjustments so that the end game goal is farming entire levels to make your game fun. That is fine except the fact is we're only farming entire levels to use the AH. I would love to farm entire levels and have a Legendary drop. I'd love to see more set items and see one of those drop.

People didn't run Baal to get an item to sell on an AH to store up gold. People ran Baal to see that drop that was something they had dreamed of. I can't express how much more of a reward it is to FIND YOUR OWN items dropping. It's a sense of accomplishment.
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Thanks for the discussions, the three or four that participated. Either no one agrees with these ideas, or my title wasn't catchy enough. Not sure which.
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