Diablo® III

Reason behind my RMAH account lock explained

No, I've seen enough of forum posts like this:
"I was hacked, but have an authenticator"
<blue poster enters>: sorry, you attached it AFTER you were compromised.

"I won this roll for an item (WoW), but never received it"
<blue poster enters>: sorry, you rolled a 99. XYZ in your party rolled a 100. Perhaps it scrolled off your screen, but you did not win it.

etc, etc, etc. Forum posters lie. And as I've said, if he's legit and getting nowhere with Blizzard, he needs to contact his bank. Forums are the wrong place.


Everybody lies at some point. But that doesn't mean we operate under the assumption that every stated thing is a lie. That's counterproductive. Perhaps a better choice of words would have been "We may not know the whole story here." You see how I said something similar to your statement, without sounding like a douchebag?
talk to your bank and a lawyer.
We aren't conversing about stopping cheats. We are conversing on how to correct this as well as why blizzard didn't protect the average consumer.


You are trying to protect the consumer from himself though. In this case it was the consumer who admits he made a mistake in not updating his account info and caused the issue. Use the "but for" test of liability. "But for" the actions of the user not updating his account, the whole issue wouldn't have happened.

Oh I agree! And had the average consumer of read the entire EULA then they would have known.

I suppose it just feels like you have been cheated when there is no warning out in the opening. It is in the EULA but more measures could have been taken to prevent this.

Imagine the amount of account jackings that could of been thwarted were accounts locked when a user logged in from an inappropriate region. Again they could spoof it but that would require understanding blizz's region policy. Do they break it into continents only? Countries? Do they use the american system of region such as mid west, west coast etc? And if so, why not, as a security feature, check for these upon login?

It just baffles me how this happens. Banks have it, PayPal has it, man even a lot of normal websites log your region and will restrict access should they not match up.

Considering how much cash they move I feel this is just illogical.

Again, why did they allow a login from a different region, perhaps even a transfer and website login from a seperate region?

They could have implemented a security question upon a failed region auth and asked for further verification and then asked them to update their information before being allowed access, without stipulating what region they know they logged from.

As well as used his cell number, similar to PayPal, to verify his login from an unauthorized computer. It feels that it's obvious to them that the region was incompatible.

Perhaps their servers check for these things but are cron jobbed for every 10-30minutes, which is a lot of time considering most people want to buy as soon as they log in.

EDIT: I understand that they break regions into NA Europe Korea etc. But it could be taken further and we don't know. A lot of grey area works in their favor.
Edited by HenryGuy#1194 on 6/29/2012 5:24 PM PDT
Yeah, complain and complain.

If they don't resolve it for you call the BBB and file a dispute. As well as go to your bank and explain that you deposited money into a bank account with blizzard. They then require you to forfeit your account balance since it exceeds their limit.

The manager will be able to advise you on further action you can take with your bank to get your funds back as well as places you can call. With direct numbers and people that answer, since calling blizz is damn near impossible.

These authorities will be capable of demanding your money back. Since this is probably the first time I have heard of this, I'd say it's very uncommon.

Even if they cannot "transfer money from currency to another", technically they can and are able to. The worst that should really happen is they charge you conversion fees.

They cannot keep your money and as they have essentially become a bank with this whole blizz bucks thing, they must adhere to all standards held by any money holding institution.


Pretty sure to be classified as a bank you have to allow withdrawals of funds, which blizzard does not. That is actually the main reason AFAIK that they do not allow withdrawals since they can skate by the banking rules.


Nah. The B.Net Balance is ideally treated as Unearned Revenue on the general journal. Once the player spends that money, the Unearned Revenue account is debited and Earned Revenue is credited. So technically speaking, it isn't a "money holding" operation at all. It is pure revenue that hasn't been realized (realization principle). There are hundreds of thousands of corporations with "no refund" policies and they are, unfortunately, quite legal.

When adding to your B.Net Balance you need to realize that you're technically spending money on a future product or service that Blizzard Entertainment offers, but a product or service that you haven't necessarily received yet (which falls completely on you).

As far as players losing items and money goes, regardless of the medium (RMAH transactions failing, player loses an item or cash) and also their Terms of Services and End User License Agreement, this is still illegal. You are paying for a future or current product or service as stated above; if you never receive a product or service from Blizzard Entertainment, the realization principle fails and they cannot legally write off Unearned or "Prepaid" Revenue. If they were audited with continuous disparity to customers in the form of "we can't help you get your money back for whatever reason even though you have received no service or product", they will be broken off something huge with fines, legal fee's, and payouts.
Edited by Cole#1472 on 6/29/2012 5:35 PM PDT
90 Undead Death Knight
6125
No, I've seen enough of forum posts like this:
"I was hacked, but have an authenticator"
<blue poster enters>: sorry, you attached it AFTER you were compromised.


You do realize, this actually has happened now. There was a post going for a week or so where a guy got hacked, the 'hacker' contacted customer service and had the authenticator removed. People asked for screenshots of the ticket, his email, the resolved ticket customer service's apology, etc... he provided everything anyone asked for to prove it.

"I won this roll for an item (WoW), but never received it"
<blue poster enters>: sorry, you rolled a 99. XYZ in your party rolled a 100. Perhaps it scrolled off your screen, but you did not win it.


Like this hasn't actually happened either. Where some guild changes a raids loot rules to give an item to a guildy instead of some pick up guy that got a lucky roll.

06/29/2012 05:12 PMPosted by CyberGoat
etc, etc, etc. Forum posters lie. And as I've said, if he's legit and getting nowhere with Blizzard, he needs to contact his bank. Forums are the wrong place.


Some do without a doubt. Maybe even the OP of this thread. But its a dismal way to go through life assuming everyone is lying to you.
06/29/2012 05:22 PMPosted by HenryGuy
Imagine the amount of account jackings that could of been thwarted were accounts locked when a user logged in from an inappropriate region. Again they could spoof it but that would require understanding blizz's region policy. Do they break it into continents only? Countries? Do they use the american system of region such as mid west, west coast etc? And if so, why not, as a security feature, check for these upon login?


There actually is a feature on Battlenet accounts, but there is AI behind it that learns your "normal" play locations. If you deviate from that, use WiFi, or allow a child to logon from a different region your account is locked. Players on the WoW forums complain constantly about it.

4G connections are notorious for switching geoIPs midstream and they can show up as various regions in the country. I was on one once and showed up as Boston, then Seattle, then Miami. It's truly amazing. So you don't want to tick off your real customers, which is what the IP locking does.

Hackers know all the rules and tend to get addresses along with the account information when they phish. That allows them to spoof the correct location. They are more cognizant of rules than the players.
Regardless of all the bickering on both sides of every issue i see like this,
It all follows the same road, to the same destination:

People, as a trend (not all of them mind you) will stop spending their money on Blizzard's games and services, further impacting the company's ability to produce a game or service of any notable quality.

Whether you get your money back or not, and you may not agree with this now...
you have learned a valuable lesson about the extreme care which must be taken when engaging in real money online transactions such as this. The main difference being that most other companies are not so buried under a deep pile that they cannot even help you out of THEIR red tape.

I'd like to thank you for at least posting about this situation. Hopefully others will see this and think twice about giving any more money to a company which is so obviously flawed by greed and internal confusion.

At the end of the day, the only thing that will influence Blizzard's decisions is the amount of cash flowing into their coffers, or lack therof. Choose wisely who to give your money to.
Some do without a doubt. Maybe even the OP of this thread. But its a dismal way to go through life assuming everyone is lying to you.
Sorry, I find gamers tend to lie the most. Forums posters of a gamer site? It's all lies. Just like everyone on the internet is a dude until proven otherwise.

And my wife plays Diablo.

You do realize, this actually has happened now. There was a post going for a week or so where a guy got hacked, the 'hacker' contacted customer service and had the authenticator removed. People asked for screenshots of the ticket, his email, the resolved ticket customer service's apology, etc... he provided everything anyone asked for to prove it.
If you are quick enough, you can use a man-in-the-middle attack to defeat an authenticator. You can also remove it from a battle.net account (rather than just logging in to Diablo) by logging in on the website.

Authenticators are not undefeatable, just highly unlikely it would happen. If I can "see" your authenticator, I might as well have possession of it.

But it's w/e. The OP just needs to contact his bank. End of story.
06/29/2012 04:36 PMPosted by Killabyte
blatant theft... The ToS agreement cant override the law of the land, since this is REAL money commerce standard commerce laws apply... they cant just take your money.


This statement always makes me laugh. As if Blizzard doesn't have a legal team that overlooks this stuff.

Have you ever been given a gift card?

Have you ever read the small print on the back of the card?

Prepared to be shocked. The balance on the gift card expires after a certain amount of time. Real money was used to fund the gift card. That is what a battle.net balance is.

It isn't fair, it isn't right, and last I heard it was being looked into by the Canadian government. But that was 2 years ago, and I doubt anything has changed.

TL:DR

Blizzard has lawyers too.
Sounds like a major ego trip on Blizzards part. Seriously all this hassle to play a damn video game? I could buy a house with less issues and probably in less time. Just wow...
90 Human Death Knight
9600
This isnt blizz being thieves, this is a guy that doesnt understand e-money and international borders. Sorry blizz isnt here to launder money for you to china, and they have these rules to prevent account theft and stealing your funds, can you imagine the uproar if people got hacked and they sent their balance to asia and could never get it back? They are covering their !@# and how can you blame them, everything is in the faqs and TOU, stop scrolling ahead to the accept button and get your stuff in order before you start throwing your money away online.
That makes sense with the 4G.

I myself never play unless on a LAN line so I am less aware of those types of issues. I wonder why nothing came up before he paid for the items though? Or made the deposit?

I suppose it just seems like these types of things should arise during the day long deposit review process and not after having used some of the "money" since we can basically not call it that when it enters blizzards "account".

As well as with the blizz bucks thing. I never thought to equate it to buying a game card though it is when you word it that way.

I am not sure, but is there a warning when depositing cash that stipulates you are purchasing blizz bucks and not transferring your money to an account that could be used on their RMAH?

They could have easily allowed PayPal to handle transactions directly but that would of cut blizzard out of their % on withdraw to PayPal.

What you stated on the realization thing makes sense though. Even the most basic of Facebook games guarantee you realization of service with guaranteed results. Buying power ups etc.

But blizzard is saying that they are not liable for "holding" your money and the aftermath of failing to understand one of their many buried rules. I think you are right and that it isn't legal.

We shall see how Korea handles this and hopefully it doesn't destroy the company, which could happen with the amount of players in Korea. But that is probably just one satellite of blizzards corporate underling corporations and I am unsure on if they can file individually for bankruptcy or if the parent company becomes responsible for said inability to pay.
90 Undead Death Knight
6125
06/29/2012 05:53 PMPosted by CyberGoat
If you are quick enough, you can use a man-in-the-middle attack to defeat an authenticator. You can also remove it from a battle.net account (rather than just logging in to Diablo) by logging in on the website.


Yeah, a MitM attack is possible - but difficult. The irony of the other post was that the 'hacker' didn't even bother. He just opened a ticket and asked a rep to remove it. And they did. Hmm, seems that thread is deleted now. lol

As for the OP, he should probably try a bit more to work out something with Blizzard. I would think that after explaining the situation to a supervisor or something they could work it out with him. I would only use the bank as a last resort. If he uses his bank and charges everything back, he will lose the account.
Edited by Runebane#1766 on 6/29/2012 6:05 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
9600
06/29/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Runebane
If you are quick enough, you can use a man-in-the-middle attack to defeat an authenticator. You can also remove it from a battle.net account (rather than just logging in to Diablo) by logging in on the website.


Yeah, a MitM attack is possible - but difficult. The irony of the other post was that the 'hacker' didn't even bother. He just opened a ticket and asked a rep to remove it. And they did. Hmm, seems that thread is deleted now. lol

As for the OP, he should probably try a bit more to work out something with Blizzard. I would think that after explaining the situation to a supervisor or something they could work it out with him. I would only use the bank as a last resort. If he uses his bank and charges everything back, he will lose the account.


I remember that thread, its true the rep disabled the authenticator without him giving the seriel number and that help desk guy should be out of a job, also, the owner of the account had disabled the authenticator like a dozen times in the course of a year and reset it for god knows what reason, can only lose your phone so many times, his own paranoia is what did him in, if he hadnt disabled it ever i doubt they would have unlocked it so easily.
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