Diablo® III

Witch Doctor Pet Guide part 2 (old)

We smashed the post limit for the 3rd time! New thread is here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6246946715

This thread contains useful information about pets, including how to make them survive more than one hit. Yes, pets can survive in Inferno. Feel free to suggest any useful information to be added.

TLDR Version: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209#2

Terihlon#1660 wants to test a 4-Witch Doctor CC-fest for Inferno Act 3. If interested, please add him to your friends list.

For the people adding me as a friend, please leave a message that you are not a gold seller, because I am trying to avoid them.

Updates
14th July: Leeching Beasts rune of Zombie Dogs will heal 50% of the damage they do. This includes thorns! E.g. if you have 10,000 thorns damage, each time an enemy hits your dog, you will be healed for 2,500 and your dog that got hit will also be healed for 2,500.
But that 50% will be reduced to only 10% in Inferno mode.

Table of Contents
1. My Pets Die In 1 Hit. Pets Suck!
2. Basic Information of Pets
3. The CC Build
4. Inferno Mode

1. My Pets Die In 1 hit. Pets Suck!
No they do not suck. This is a very common misconception about our pets that happens due to wrong gear, and it is precisely why this guide was created to clear this up. Pets currently need some buffs but they are not as useless as people claim.

The reason why your pets are dying is because your gear does not have defensive stats to benefit them. Witch Doctors instinctively stack intelligence to increase their damage. They naturally ignore defensive stats. The problem is our pets scale off our defensive stats like armor and dodge, and because your gear lacks them, that is why they are dying.

To make your pets survive better, stack things that will make YOU survive better, like strength (improves armor), dexterity (improved dodge), intelligence (improves resistances), armor, resistances and Life Regeneration.

Vitality and Block do not benefit your pets.

With proper gear, it is possible for your pets to survive comfortably up to Inferno Act 1. They can survive in Acts 2, 3 and 4 but it will be difficult. Pets currently cannot work against bosses like Belial and Ghom.

2. Basic Information of Pets
Approximate Health of Pets at Level 60
Dog = ~11000 life
Gargantuan = ~31500 life

Defensive Stat Priority
Note: The ideal ratio of Armor to Resistances is 10:1. Don't follow this rule, use it as a guide.
E.g. 7500 armor and 750 resistances has the same overall damage reduction as 6000 armor and 926 resistances. 7500 armor and 750 resistance is slightly more efficient, but it is not necessarily easier to aim for than 6000 armor and 926 resistances.

  • 1. Stun/Freeze/Fear/Knock Back
    Stops an enemy from attacking your pets, thus completely avoiding damage. See the CC Build section below for more information.
  • 2a. Armor/Strength
    Armor reduces all damage, not just physical damage. Armor is a more efficient stat because it exists in higher numbers than Strength.
  • 2b. Resist All
    Resist All reduces not just magic damage, even physical damage because there is a Physical Resistance stat.
  • 3. Life Regeneration (Must take Fierce Loyalty Passive)
    Due to diminishing returns of damage reduction from either armor or resistance, and due to there being a max to how much you can get, it is not possible to stack enough to reduce damage to a manageable amount for your pets.
    After reaching a certain damage reduction, Life Regeneration will be a more efficient stat to keep your pets alive.
  • 4. Intelligence
    Increases all resistance by 10% of the Intelligence value. Also increases your damage.
  • 5. Vitality (Must take Fierce Loyalty Passive)
    Note, vitality DOES NOT increase your pets' health. It does not benefit your pet directly.
    But, it can indirectly help your pets by using Spirit Walk (Healing Journey), which converts 7% of your Maximum Life into Life Regeneration, which does benefit your pets if you have the Fierce Loyalty Passive.


Optional Defensive Stats
  • Individual Resists
    Outside of Resist All, you can get additional individual resists. Poison, Fire and Electric are more important because champions with Plagued, Desecrated and Electrified affixes do very high aoe damage.
  • Dexterity
    Dodge completely stops and attack but it is unreliable. It also suffers from heavy diminishing returns. Up to 100 Dexterity, 1 dexterity = 0.1% dodge. But from 100 to 500 Dexterity, 1 dexterity = 0.025% dodge.


Offensive Stat Priority
  • 1. Intelligence
    Intelligence is the main offensive stat.
  • 2. Bleed
    Bleed is a good offensive stat because it stacks. Due to the proc nature of Witch Doctors that can trigger something as low as 5% into something that happens 80% of the time, something like Bleed chance which can be as high as 33%, will stack to very high amounts. A single bleed tick of 60 damage can stack up to 1000+ damage if lucky.


3. The CC Build
The CC Build was discovered during brainstorming in the previous thread as people tried to make the Witch Doctor's pets work in Inferno.

CC stands for "Crowd Control", which is something that temporarily disables an enemy like stun or freeze. The CC Build thus involves stacking CC stats in order to apply lots of CCs to enemies.

The small % chance of CCs like stun and freeze are deceptive, because the Witch Doctor can make it happen like 80% of the time. This is due to the unique fact that the Witch Doctor has pets, and can generate relatively more hits than other classes through them. The Witch Doctor can apply CCs through his spells, his pet attacks, and his pet auras.

With the CC build, a single boss can even CCed so much that he barely gets out an attack, resulting in a slow but safe victory.

The CC build should also work well in co-op games because ranged classes like the wizard and the demon hunter will enjoy safely killing enemies from a distance while your pets tank and CC them.

CCs From Gear
Not all gear can have all possible CCs. Most of the item slots can have only one possible CC, with the exception of weapons and off-hands which can have all types.

Here are the CCs that you can get from gear. It is not necessary to get all, but the more the better because certain enemies are immune to certain CCs.
  • Amulet - Chance to Blind on Hit (Stat exists but search criteria isn't available)
  • Belt - Chance to Freeze on Hit
  • Boots - Chance to Immobilize on Hit
  • Bracers - Chance to Knockback on Hit
  • Gloves - Chance to Stun on Hit
  • Helm - Chance to Fear on Hit
  • Pants - Chance to Slow on Hit
  • Shoulders - Chance to Chill on Hit
  • Weapon - Bleed Chance + all of the above CCs
  • Off-Hand - Bleed Chance + all of the above CCs


Important CCs
  • Stun
    To stop enemies from moving or attacking your pets, increasing survivability.
  • Freeze
    Same as Stun, but has a chance to be removed if a frozen enemy is damaged.
  • Fear
    Makes enemies run away from you. Fear is as good as stun or freeze in stopping enemies from attacking you, only that it makes enemies run away.
  • Blind
    Causes enemies to miss their attacks on you. More enemies are immune to it and currently there is no search option for amulets for that stat in the AH.
  • Knock Back
    Makes your enemies fly away from you, briefly delaying their attack while airborne.


Optional CCs
  • Chill
    Slows attack speed and movement speed. Useful to prevent enemies from running away or reaching you, and slows down enemy dps.
  • Immobilize
    Stops enemies from moving. Useful to stop enemies from running away or reaching you.
  • Slow
    Slows movement speed. Useful to prevent enemies from running away or reaching you.


Abilities to Use
Not all spells have the same chance to make a CC happen. Some abilities can make CCs happen more than others. The chance to apply CCs seems to loosely follow the numbers found in the Witch Doctor Life Leech Per Hit, By Skill thread by Karisu.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5271499223

Important Abilities and Runes
  • Gargantuan + Big Stinker Rune (15% area poison damage per second).
    Best area damage rune for Gargantuan to trigger CCs.
  • Summon Zombie Dogs + Burning Dogs Rune (2% area fire damage per second).
    Best area damage rune for dogs to trigger CCs.
  • Firebomb + Fire Pit Rune (8% area fire damage per second for 3 seconds).
    Cheap main attack spell to generate CCs.
  • Plague of Toads + Rain of Toads Rune (130% area poison damage over 2 seconds).
    Expensive main attack spell to generate CCs. Better in damage and can do damage over obstacles like walls. But costs more mana than Firebomb. Use this instead of Firebomb if you have a lot of mana.
  • Spirit Walk + Healing Journey (7% of Maximum Life converted to Life Regeneration)
    Almost compulsory ability for all Witch Doctors to escape danger. Combined with Fierce Loyalty passive skill, this is your pets' health pot! It will heal them for a lot.


Optional Abilities and Runes
  • Corpse Spiders + Spider Queen Rune (16% area poison damage per second).
    Good "damage-over-time" aoe to generate CCs, lasts 15 seconds per cast.
  • Horrify + Frightening Aspect (Extra 100% armor for 8 seconds)
    Good defensive ability that will chase away enemies that get close to you. Also keeps your pets alive longer by increasing their armor for short periods of time.
  • Big Bad Voodoo + Ghost Trance Rune (Heals 2% health per second for 20 seconds).
    Faster personal attack speed means your main ability will trigger CCs more, and the heals are useful to keep your pets alive.
  • Hex + Hedge Magic (Periodically heals allies.)
    Good defensive ability that will hex any enemy that gets close to you. Also keeps your pets alive through heals.


Recommended Passive Skills
  • Jungle Fortitude (Reduces damage taken by you and pets by 20%).
    Keeps pets alive longer. Dead pets don't generate CC.
  • Zombie Handler (Extra dog and health of pets increased by 20%).
    Extra dog is useful to generate extra CC. Also keeps pets alive longer.
  • Fierce Loyalty (Pets benefit 100% from Life Regeneration and Thorns).
    The only way to heal pets to keep them alive longer.


Optional Passive Skills
  • Bad Medicine (Reduces enemy damage by 20% for 3 seconds if you inflict poison damage to them)
    Keeps pets alive longer. Dead pets don't generate CC. But it is a bit limited because you are forced to use poison damage, and there is no guarantee that you will hit enemies with it before they hit your pets. Due to dogs having only 11000 health, Zombie Handler passive will give your pets roughly the same effective health as Bad Medicine, but Zombie Handler gives you an additional dog for dps and CC.
  • Blood Ritual (1% of Max Life as Life Regeneration)
    Use in combination with Fierce Loyalty and a very high Life for good pet healing.
  • Pierce the Veil (Damage increased 20%, mana costs increased 30%)
    The best defense is a good offense, kill your enemies before your pets die.


Recommended Follower
  • Level 1 to 45: Templar
    The Templar's Loyalty skill is the only ability that can reliably heal your pets before you get Fierce Loyalty at level 45.
  • Level 45 to 60: Sorceress
    Once you get Fierce Loyalty, you can get a much higher Life Regeneration for your pets than what the Templar can give at level 60 (only 155).
    The Sorceress' Power Armor (+15% armor) is thus more valuable after that point in keeping your pets alive.


4. Inferno Mode
This section will attempt to guide you with a CC build in Inferno Mode.

For Inferno Mode, enemy damage and defenses are increased, but their damage is increased far more than their defenses. This means that ironically, your damage is the key to your pets survival, where the best defense is a good offense comes to mind. You kill enemies long before they can kill your pets.

Keep in mind that Inferno is the hardest difficulty mode and it is not possible to steamroll it unless you have superior gear. You are still expected to die despite your best efforts, but it is not impossible.

Ways to Combat Elite Affixes
  • Arcane Enchanted - Surprisingly, pets are nearly immune to arcane sentries and can stand in them. They are considered "environmental damage" which pets take reduced damage from. Move away if one spawns near you.
  • Avenger - Harmless.
  • Desecrator - Desecrator tends to target YOU rather than your pets. Heavy CC may reduce the frequency of desecration on the ground. Move away if one is on your feet. Navigate yourself in such a way that pets won't step on them when attacking elites.
  • Electrified - Difficult because despite being CCed, they will still throw out electric charges. Prepare to move back often to give your pets breathing space while Life Regeneration heals them. Try to push them back through Fear and Knock backs. Use Spirit Walk and Horrify as much as possible.
  • Extra Health - Harmless. Just takes longer to kill them.
  • Fast - Your pets should keep them pinned down and prevent them from reaching you most of the time.
  • Fire Chains - Try to keep them at the edge of your screen through firebombs which will trigger fear and knockback. This will ensure that your pets are always in front of them and won't be in the path of fire chains too much.
  • Frozen - Heavy CC may reduce the frequency of frozen orbs. If they do spawn, time your Horrify and Spirit Walk so that your pets take reduced damage.
  • Health Link - Harmless. They take longer to die, but they die together.
  • Horde - Be prepared to move back to prevent minions from swarming you.
  • Illusionist - Be prepared to move back to prevent illusions from swarming you. Kill illusions off quickly.
  • Invulnerable Minions - These are difficult because they often ignore your pets and aim for you. Be prepared to escape a lot using Spirit Walk and Horrify, while trying your best to kill the main elite.
  • Jailer - Harmless on its own, but can be dangerous with other dangerous affixes like Arcane Enchanted and Desecrator. Save Spirit Walk to escape.
  • Knockback - Harmless.
  • Missile Dampening - Harmless, but be prepared to move in to damage elites, since fire bombs are dampened.
  • Molten - Use fire bombs to keep elites at the edge of the screen so that your pets can pin them there and prevent them from getting molten. Watch out for their explosions once they die.
  • Mortar - Move in to avoid damage, but can be very dangerous when combined with other affixes like Arcane Enchanted. Try to pin them against a wall while you dps down, to prevent them from getting feared or knocked back.
  • Nightmarish - Harmless.
  • Plagued - Heavy CC can reduce the frequency of plague pools. When one spawns, quickly use Horrify to save your pets, and Spirit Walk one screen away so that your pets will respawn next to you. Be prepared to kite a lot to move your pets out of plague pools.
  • Shielding - Not as bad as invulnerable minions but can be annoying. Shielded elites can still be CCed. Focus fire on non-shielded elites to kill them off faster.
  • Teleporter - Harmless on its own but can mess up your attempts to herd all the elites together. Use Horrify, Spirit Walk or Hex to escape if one teleports near to you.
  • Thorns - Harmless because a Pet CC Build naturally has low dps and any reflected damage can be healed by Life Regeneration easily.
  • Vampiric - Harmless on its own but can be problematic if combined with aoe affixes like electrified, desecrator and plague pools, all of which can heal them. Be prepared to kite to prevent pets from taking too much damage.
  • Vortex - Can be very dangerous if combined with Arcane Enchanted. Save Spirit Walk to escape once vortexed. Try to stay far off screen to prevent from getting vortexed.
  • Waller - Can be dangerous if combined with Arcane Enchanted and Desecrator. Also annoying because Fire Bombs cannot pass through walls but Rain of Toads can. Save Spirit Walk to escape dangerous situations.


Act 1
Here are the bare minimum numbers that I had to beat the Butcher in Inferno Mode. It is recommended to get higher numbers, but if it is too expensive, it is still possible to beat the Butcher.

Entry-Level Numbers
  • Damage: 10,000
  • Armor: 3200
  • Dodge: 19%
  • Resistances: 550
  • Life: 15,000
  • Life Regen: 500
  • 11% combined chance for Stun and Freeze


Abilities
  • Firebomb + Fire Pit
  • Hex + Hedge Magic
  • Summon Zombie Dogs + Burning Dogs Rune
  • Gargantuan + Big Stinker Rune
  • Spirit Walk + Jaunt
  • Horrify + Frightening Aspect


Passive Skills
  • Jungle Fortitude
  • Fierce Loyalty
  • Pierce the Veil


Follower
  • Sorceress


Strategy
The main strategy of the CC build is to CC-lock your mobs to death. This build should be effective against 99% of normal mobs, simple Champions and bosses, so they are not an issue.

Champion Packs
Against Champion Packs with strong aoe combinations like plagued, molten, electrified and frozen, you have to semi-kite them. You cannot CC lock them because your pets cannot survive too much aoe damage from them, and you have to keep moving away in order to force them to move out of dangerous aoe.

While you are moving away, the Champions will try to move towards you. During that brief kiting process, your pets are still attacking them, and their damage is pretty good if you have at least 10,000 damage. But you should try to stop and throw a few fire bombs at them to help out your pets.

Your pets will still die with this strategy, but you must keep kiting till the cooldown is up to re-summon them. It is possible to kill most champions before the "Out of time" debuff appears, even those with Extra Health modifier.

Use Horrify to chase away Champions that reach you, or use them for the huge armor bonus once you know your pets is about to take heavy damage, like frozen orbs materializing or a plague pool is spawned.

Use Spirit Walk to escape dangerous situations.

Hex will occasionally heal your pets and also hex any Champion that gets near you.

Butcher
Stay in melee range.

By staying in melee range, you will prevent him from doing his hook which is followed up by a hook smash. You may survive it, but your dogs won't. And you need your dogs alive in order to CC lock him. In melee range, he will just do his normal melee attack and a rabbit-hop followed by a smash.

Always position him so that he is facing away from his pets, so that when his charge happens, it won't hit any of your pets.

If 10,000 damage is not be enough before the entire room fills with fire (soft enrage), you can swap out Hex and Horrify for other damage abilities.

In order to compensate for the low suggested stat numbers, you have to be more pro-active in avoiding damage and keeping your pets alive in Inferno. Obviously bigger numbers are better and will make life easier.

Act 2
This setup can get you to Kulle.

Numbers
  • Damage: 10,000
  • Bleed: 33.6% for 1471-2618 damage
  • Armor: 6500
  • Dodge: 22%
  • Resistances: 650
  • Life: 20,000
  • Life Regen: 1500
  • 15.5% combined chance for Stun, Freeze, Fear, Knockback


Abilities
  • Firebomb + Fire Pit
  • Big Bad Voodoo + Ghost Trance
  • Summon Zombie Dogs + Burning Dogs Rune
  • Gargantuan + Big Stinker Rune
  • Spirit Walk +Healing Journey
  • Horrify + Frightening Aspect


Passive Skills
  • Jungle Fortitude
  • Fierce Loyalty
  • Zombie Handler


Follower
  • Sorceress


Strategy
The bees at the start are probably the most difficult mobs in the game due to their bullets which should be avoided. Strategically use Horrify, Spirit Walk and even Big Bad Voodoo to help your pets last a few seconds of those bullets.

Zoltun Kulle
Zoltun Kulle is as easy as elites, except for his ceiling debris and tornadoes.

At the start, use Big Bad Voodoo and position yourself in such a way that both you and your pets are in it. Kill the 2 golems first. You should survive almost anything that Kulle throws at you while Big Bad Voodoo lasts.

After Big Bad Voodoo expires, if you see tornadoes, quickly move away. Tornadoes will kill your pets quickly. If Horrify and Spirit Walk are ready, use them to move away faster.

Once both golems are dead, pin Kulle against a wall and CC/dps as normal. Move away from tornadoes if they appear.

Belial
Currently I do not know the strategy to beat Belial with the pet CC build. I had to switch to spamming zombie bears to beat him.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 8/21/2012 4:01 AM PDT
Summary (TLDR)
Pet Health
Dog: ~11000
Gargantuan: ~31500

Do Stats Benefit Pets?
Defensive Stats
  • Strength: Yes (through increasing armor)
  • Dexterity: Yes (through increasing dodge)
  • Intelligence: Yes (through increasing resistances)
  • Vitality: No
  • Block: No (but you want to use shield anyway for the extra armor that pets do benefit from)
  • Dodge: Yes
  • Armor: Yes
  • Physical Resistance: Yes
  • Cold Resistance: Untested
  • Fire Resistance: Untested
  • Lightning Resistance: Untested
  • Poison Resistance: Untested
  • Arcane/Holy Resistance: Untested
  • Missile Damage Reduction: Untested
  • Melee Damage Reduction: No


Offensive Stats
  • Intelligence: Yes (through increasing your damage)
  • Attack Speed: Yes (increases pet damage)
  • Critical Hit Chance: Yes (increases pet crit chance)
  • Critical Hit Damage: No
  • Thorns: Yes (Must take Fierce Loyalty Skill)
  • Bleed Chance: Yes, through their auras, but not their melee attacks. Each separate Bleed also stacks and does not overwrite one another.


Defensive Stat Priority
  • 1. Stun/Freeze/Fear/Knock Back
  • 2a. Armor/Strength
  • 2b. Resist All
  • 3. Life Regeneration (Must take Fierce Loyalty Passive)
  • 4. Intelligence
  • 5. Vitality


Optional Defensive Stats
  • Individual Resists
  • Dexterity


Offensive Stat Priority
  • Intelligence
  • Bleed


Can Pets Be Healed? (must take Fierce Loyalty Skill)
From Stats
  • Life Regeneration: Yes
  • Thorns: Yes (Only for Zombie Dogs. Must use Leeching Beasts. Thorns count as THEIR damage. Be warned that the amount healed from Leeching Beasts will be reduced from 50% to 10% in Inferno mode.)
  • Life Steal: No (needs more testing)
  • Life On hit: No (needs more testing)
  • Life Per kill: No (needs more testing)

From Abilities
  • Firebats + Vampire Bats Rune: No
  • Haunt + Consuming Spirit: No
  • Spirit Barrage + Phlebotomize: No
  • Spirit Walk + Healing Journey: Yes

From Passive Skills
  • Blood Ritual Skill: Yes


CC Information
CCs From Gear
  • Amulet - Chance to Blind on Hit
  • Belt - Chance to Freeze on Hit
  • Boots - Chance to Immobilize on Hit
  • Bracers - Chance to Knockback on Hit
  • Gloves - Chance to Stun on Hit
  • Helm - Chance to Fear on Hit
  • Pants - Chance to Slow on Hit
  • Shoulders - Chance to Chill on Hit
  • Weapon - Bleed Chance + all of the above CCs
  • Off-Hand - Bleed Chance + all of the above CCs


Important CCs
  • Stun
  • Freeze
  • Fear
  • Blind
  • Knock Back


Optional CCs
  • Chill
  • Immobilize
  • Slow


Important Abilities for CC Build
  • Gargantuan + Big Stinker Rune
  • Summon Zombie Dogs + Burning Dogs Rune
  • Firebomb + Fire Pit Rune (Or Plague of Toads + Rain of Toads Rune if you have a lot of mana)
  • Spirit Walk + Healing Journey


Optional Abilities for CC Build
  • Corpse Spiders + Spider Queen Rune
  • Horrify + Frightening Aspect
  • Big Bad Voodoo + Ghost Trance Rune
  • Hex + Hedge Magic


Recommended Passive Skills for CC Build
  • Jungle Fortitude
  • Zombie Handler
  • Fierce Loyalty


Optional Passive Skills for CC Build
  • Bad Medicine
  • Blood Ritual (With Fierce Loyalty & High Maximum Life)
  • Pierce the Veil


Recommended Follower
  • Level 1 to 45: Templar
  • Level 45 to 60: Sorceress
Edited by Peter#1403 on 7/13/2012 10:02 AM PDT
Testimonials of Pet Performance in Inferno Mode
Act 1
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=1#19 lemongroup
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=2#39 boukers
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=3#55 Twelves

Act 2
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=1#16 Terihlon
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=2#26 phoenixcrow
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978460209?page=2#28 crdvis16

Act 3
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6008720970 Dannyboy

Useful Links and Sources
Old Version Of This Thread Containing Research Data
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5271500086
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5594214282

Comprehensive Witch Doctor Build Guide
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4927183159

Witch Doctor Life Leech Per Hit, By Skill
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5271499223

Blue Post Hinting At Plans To Buff Pets.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5271506353?page=19#366

Explanation of Stats
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5594214282?page=2#28
Edited by Peter#1403 on 7/5/2012 2:16 AM PDT
I was trying to say in the previous thread that Belial's final form does take Bleed damage.
Damn 501 posts fly by fast.
Anyway, it doesn't mention it in my post in the last thread (explanation of stats at the bottom of peters post), but I have also started investing in bleed stacking, with great success so far. Act 1 is a breeze, though I dunno how well the bleed damage alone will do in later acts.
Also, I've edited a bit:
At the moment, you kinda have to pick and choose between good CC and good bleed. It sucks but that's how it's going right now.
And basically, bleed can definitely supplement your damage even in lower amounts, but if you aren't packing some serious bleed damage, it's not worth sacrificing too much CC or damage for it.
Entry level bleed damage for inferno would be like 30% chance for 1500 average damage per item, IMO. Of course, if you can find a good CC item with a little bleed on it, it won't hurt. You'll still be relying mostly on weapon damage for you killing, however, or else your overall DPS will be tiny.
Supplementing damage with a little bleed or replacing lots of damage with lots of bleed, both methods can work as long as you keep a balance in order to maintain an effective damage output.
I personally am going max bleed so my pets can actually kill things on their own (It's very satisfying to have them tear though trash with no input from me.) But if you are already good on CC and can't afford good bleed gear, I'd stick with that.

Also, a little tip, use a shield with bleed instead of your weapon, if you are only going to be using one or the other for bleeding. Good bleed damage on a shield can make up from the missing +damage from switching off a mojo. It's easier this way if you're still working for high weapon DPS. (then again, you can just try to be even more offensive and use a mojo with lots of bleed. But you may be sacrificing all the offhand CC, and won't have shield armor to help compensate)
But if you find a good ring with bleed on it too, the more the merrier! Just remember my entry level bleed damage, don't expect tiny bleed damage to be more helpful than other really nice ring stats.
ALSO, this was mentioned at the end of the last thread, so I will respond here.
As a final note I would like to hear peoples (updated :)) idears on the following:
1. Vitality (I am sometimes down to max 12k life because my pets don't get it, how do you guys prioritize this)
2. do you guys go for fear and knock back as peter is suggesting, with my bad medicine strategy fear is out of the question, as helmets with fear, regen and decent other stats does not exist.
3. Confision and hex vs spirit walk and horrify
4. life regen on pets

1. I basically just squeeze it in where I can. I'm usually avoiding damage as much as possible anyway, but yes pets can fail and mortars suck. So you'll want enough to take a few hits. I personally peg 15k health as my lower limit for inferno. But it's fluctuating up and down constantly.

2a. I do have a fearing helm. I'm using a low mana build, so it isn't imperative to have that at the moment.
2b.I'm considering getting knockback again, I'll see if I can use a little and it help me more than annoy.

3a. Confusion is useless against elites, which is the place you need it most. And it has no effect on bosses. Cooldown is too long as well. I ignore it until they fix it.
3b. Hex... Well, I don't hate on hex. It has usefullness sometimes. But it's too unreliable for me in most situations, and its runes are way underpowered/useless. Also, can't hex a boss or large enemies. I ignore it as well.
3c. You need spirit walk to do inferno unless you're going full tank doctor. Otherwise, no exceptions.
3d. I tried horrify for the extra armor. But since I'm not gonna use it AND spirit walk (fetish army is a great time buyer against tough elites, and fits in with my summoning theme. I have no room for two full defensive skills), I had to go with spirit walk instead.a

4.Once you have too much diminishing returns from armor/resist/dex, it seems like the only effective way to further reduce damage to pets is with good (and I do mean good) amounts of health regen. Though, I have not reached that point with defensive stats yet (only 26% dodge chance, which needs to go way up before resorting to this).
My problems with health regen is that it requires using your third and final passive slot, and it also caps out below 5K life/sec. And retaining all these other stats (defensive/CC/int) and then going for high health regen would be a chore. A very expensive chore I imagine.
Edited by BafroomHumor#1121 on 7/1/2012 9:03 AM PDT
07/01/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Peter
Attack Speed: Yes (through increasing your damage)


When was this tested?

Are you referring to your DPS? Because that's not the damage your pets are benefiting from.
07/01/2012 09:10 AMPosted by Lollerman
Attack Speed: Yes (through increasing your damage)


When was this tested?

Are you referring to your DPS? Because that's not the damage your pets are benefiting from.


It was recorded in the first research thread.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5271500086

Using gear with attack speed increased the dog's pet hit damage.
85 Orc Shaman
6665
Posts: 2,679
ALSO, this was mentioned at the end of the last thread, so I will respond here.
As a final note I would like to hear peoples (updated :)) idears on the following:
1. Vitality (I am sometimes down to max 12k life because my pets don't get it, how do you guys prioritize this)
2. do you guys go for fear and knock back as peter is suggesting, with my bad medicine strategy fear is out of the question, as helmets with fear, regen and decent other stats does not exist.
3. Confision and hex vs spirit walk and horrify
4. life regen on pets

1. I basically just squeeze it in where I can. I'm usually avoiding damage as much as possible anyway, but yes pets can fail and mortars suck. So you'll want enough to take a few hits. I personally peg 15k health as my lower limit for inferno. But it's fluctuating up and down constantly.

2a. I do have a fearing helm. I'm using a low mana build, so it isn't imperative to have that at the moment.
2b.I'm considering getting knockback again, I'll see if I can use a little and it help me more than annoy.

3a. Confusion is useless against elites, which is the place you need it most. And it has no effect on bosses. Cooldown is too long as well. I ignore it until they fix it.
3b. Hex... Well, I don't hate on hex. It has usefullness sometimes. But it's too unreliable for me in most situations, and its runes are way underpowered/useless. Also, can't hex a boss or large enemies. I ignore it as well.
3c. You need spirit walk to do inferno unless you're going full tank doctor. Otherwise, no exceptions.
3d. I tried horrify for the extra armor. But since I'm not gonna use it AND spirit walk (fetish army is a great time buyer against tough elites, and fits in with my summoning theme. I have no room for two full defensive skills), I had to go with spirit walk instead.a

4.Once you have too much diminishing returns from armor/resist/dex, it seems like the only effective way to further reduce damage to pets is with good (and I do mean good) amounts of health regen. Though, I have not reached that point with defensive stats yet (only 26% dodge chance, which needs to go way up before resorting to this).
My problems with health regen is that it requires using your third and final passive slot, and it also caps out below 5K life/sec. And retaining all these other stats (defensive/CC/int) and then going for high health regen would be a chore. A very expensive chore I imagine.


I'm jealous of that dodge chance.
07/01/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Melkar
I'm jealous of that dodge chance.

Lol it's not impressive compared to a monk, I'd think. I'm trying to reach 30% dodge chance, which makes my goal 1000 dex. I'm 4/5ths the way there. I just need to stack on more dexterity without losing armor or resists :U It feels strange buying monk and demon hunter gear sometimes.
When an enemy takes bleed damage, does it trigger a chance for CC's to take effect?
07/01/2012 12:16 PMPosted by PackAttack91
When an enemy takes bleed damage, does it trigger a chance for CC's to take effect?

Newp. It would be amazing if it did.
hey everyone! big bad voodoo with life back is amazing! i traded out hex for it, and champ packs are so much easier in a2. give it a try! also, healing from spirit walk is amazing, but i've been using the mana rune... hard to decide which i like better.

@peter: it's gonna be hard using tank spec/gear without a dps partner. i have to drop my NV stacks to kill him, which means it's not worth putting it into the farming rotation. i just end on ZK after i kill all the champs prior. since everything belial does is avoidable, u can keep your stacks and just go straight int/ias gear for high dps (just switch out between phase 2 and 3)... it just means u can't make any mistakes like u could with tank gear.

@azorius: vit to stay alive when pets die (they will), spirit walk is a MUST. i'm not currently using horrify or fear/kb b/c i like keeping my groups clumped. and i'm not using confusion b/c i keep cc'ing them. they won't be doing much damage to each other if they're all cc'd

@bafroomhumor: when bleed his a wall, you just need to use better dps spells and get more int.
also, peter, can you specify in the first post that they have to be act3-ready for my test?
update on my gear and whatnot:

~700 resist all, 4.7k armor with enchantress
1230 hp regen, 300 LoH, 12y pickup radius
32k hp, 13.9k listed dmg + 10% 1k-2k bleed + 20% 1k-1.5k bleed
4.6% stun, 3% freeze, 3.1% blind (testing higher cc upon cast, then switching to this gear)
39 mana regen (to support frog spam.. could use a bit more regen) (note: base is 20)

spirit walk with heal or mana, BBV with heal
burning dogs, big stinker, spider queen, rain of toads
fierce loyalty, zombie handler, jungle fort

dogs can solo a1 without my help for the most part.

i'm comfortably farming a2... can't solo treasure goblins or belial with this build tho. not enough dps. multi aoe dmg champ packs shred my pets, and the wasps are annoying ... i try to intercept them, since my pets being alive and proc'ing LOH keeps me full.. whereas dead dogs don't do much for me. like i said earlier, BBV is amazing for keeping pets alive too.

dogs die to some packs, but i can usually handle cleaning them up myself. you have to have the mentality that though the dogs aren't permanently tanking, they're strong enough to justify their skillslot. and for me, they definitely do.
Edited by Terihlon#1660 on 7/1/2012 4:18 PM PDT
07/01/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Terihlon
@bafroomhumor: when bleed his a wall, you just need to use better dps spells and get more int.

Yea, I'm guessing that's the only way to cope. Keep getting more powerful weapons with strong bleed, and more Int. Hopefully bleed will still be worth it in the later acts to be viable. Otherwise you may be choosing some bleed over other stats that can benefit you more.
85 Orc Shaman
6665
Posts: 2,679
07/01/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Terihlon
dogs die to some packs, but i can usually handle cleaning them up myself. you have to have the mentality that though the dogs aren't permanently tanking, they're strong enough to justify their skillslot. and for me, they definitely do.


My biggest beef is with the passives that are required to have them be viable. It really limits the damage you can output compared to a non-pet, tanking spec.
Edited by Zoltar#1735 on 7/1/2012 3:53 PM PDT
Currently running pet thorn build + little bleed
my pet can do dirty job on act 1. Only those hard hitter, plague stack, fire, elite will kill my dog. But with barbarian war cry they hang abit longer.

stat:
armor 4.4k
resist 600 (min) highest (700)
bleed 30% - 400 to 700 damage
10k dps
19k hp
thorn 10k
life regen 1.8k
loh 100

primary attack : splinter
secondary : rain of toad

passive:
jungle fort
zombie handler
fierce loyalty

having problem at act 2. Most mob aim at me and ignore my pet. 2-3 shot from elite i am dead.

need help.
@lemongroup: more hp, more LoH.
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