Diablo® III

Can Blue Post Why Gear Swap Button Is Bad?

07/03/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Lylirra
what actually happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.


I honestly don't believe this. The claim is that Blizzard knew that by allowing gear swapping, certain players would do it and benefit from it, and other players wouldn't want to do it for whatever reason and would therefore choose not to do it, and not gain the benefit. Now, Blizzard's saying that certain players were "caught in the crossfire" (wrong terminology to use there; nobody was caught in any crossfire; what does that even mean?) and ended up gear swapping because they "have to" even though the don't enjoy it.

So if players are doing things they don't enjoy but CHOOSE to do in order to progress in the game, Blizzard is suddenly standing up to help these players? I'm sorry, but there are many things in D3 that players don't want to do but have to in order to progress. The game is designed this way. Why focus on MF gear swapping as your virtuous challenge to make the game better for players?

The reason: Because messing with gear swapping is in NO WAY actually benefiting the players. Blizzard has a different reason for doing it, and they aren't being forthcoming.

Here are some comparisons:
1) Drop rates: Many players feel that, although they don't want to, the only way to be "most efficient" is to purchase items on the RMAH or GAH. However, Blizzard isn't making any changes to the game to try and give players more options so that they don't have to do something that don't enjoy.
2) Repair costs and overpowered elites: Many players feel that, although they don't want to pay repair costs, that the only way to get better gear is to farm in acts that contain ridiculously overpowered elites that can one shot in the blink of an eye. It's a grueling chore to fend off these elites, die, respawn, pay high repair costs, wash-rinse-repeat, but it's the only way players can be "most effective" lest they go back to a lower difficulty level or act and have no chance of getting good drops. Is Blizzard concerned about this enough to make it better for the players "caught in the crossfire"? No, they're making it more difficult.

I don't buy the "we're doing this for the players who don't like gear swapping but feel they have to do it in order to become more effective". Last time I checked, this game is becoming less fun and more of a chore, and the reason why is that Blizzard is making the game worse under the guise of "we're doing it to make it better".

tl;dr - Justifying the complete removal of gear-swapping with "certain players don't want to do it but feel they have to in order to be more efficient" is logic so flawed I can only assume it's a lie. What's the real reason for doing this?
because it is the same issue we having right now?

the idea is TO FIX PLAYERS SWAPPING TO MF GEAR BEFORE SOMETHING DIES.
NOT MAINSTREAM IT.

Right now, we're opening discussion to the community on how best to move forward. We're considering a lot of different solutions (some of which were pulled from ideas posted in these forums) and would like your feedback. We realize that there are pros and cons to every solution we listed, and want to get your take on them as well. If you have alternative ideas, please feel free to share them!

(By the way, saying that you'd prefer a button over the other options is totally valid feedback, but just keep in mind that our goal is to come up with a viable solution to the problem of players feeling like they need to gear swap even if they don't actually feel like it's fun gameplay.)


Diablo 2 had the gear swap button. I think this will help with MANY issues that people face when fighting mobs in Inferno. It will help those wanting to do MF, and others who have specific gear for dealing with specific mobs/bosses in the game.

Leave MF alone and allow for an alternate set of gear to be equipped/swapped at the push of a button and let us decide what we feel is 'needed'.

If Diablo 3 was ANYTHING like the D2 in regards to the QUALITY of 'rare' items when one DID drop, this discussion about MF would not even be an issue.
Edited by Mistico#1413 on 7/3/2012 11:38 AM PDT
Why, if you have no philosophical problem with MF gear swapping, did you not include an option to have a gear swap button/alternative gear set?


Parting the veils a little bit here...

There was some debate about Magic Find gear swapping before the game shipped. Some of our developers and testers thought it was fun way to game the system, while others felt it was too much of a hassle. In the end, we decided to allow gear swapping, thinking that the players who wanted to do it would, and the players who don't enjoy the practice wouldn't. Of course, what actually happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.

So, when Wyatt says we "didn't have a problem with it philosophically," it means we were aware of the practice of gear swapping and understood that the player base had differing opinions on it, but didn't want to make any changes to it unless the community asked for it outright (since we knew it was fun for a select group of players). It did not mean it was deliberately a practice we wanted to encourage everybody to do. Supporting and promoting gear swapping by adding a button could only complicate the current problem of players feeling like the they need to gear swap in order to be really efficient, even if they don't enjoy it; it also increases the need for storage space (both server-side and in a player's inventory) and adds complexity to a UI that's otherwise designed to be very simple and straightforward.

So, more or less this:

[quote]Right now, we're opening discussion to the community on how best to move forward. We're considering a lot of different solutions (some of which were pulled from ideas posted in these forums) and would like your feedback.


Seriously though, I feel bad for you. I feel bad for you because you work in the same company as the people who made the game, and therefore I think you should quit your job and start do something else, something more successfully than this !@#$.

You guys always says "We listen, we want your feedback" and when we tell you all that you guys suck and swallow, why don't you listen?
You guys know what to fix, yet you ask us 10,000 questions about other improvements / things that should been changed like the MF stuff - which is basically not an issue compare to the Auction House, Bots taking over the game etc.

If I were you, stop ask us for feedbacks - and fix this %^-*.

- Darkimba
Edited by Darkimba#2642 on 7/3/2012 11:37 AM PDT
...what actually happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.


So what?

So what?

And I say that as someone who has no interest in MF gear swapping.

There is no crossfire. No crossfire.

Yes, in order to be efficient at something you have to, you know, actually effort at it.

The problem is not that people have to effort, it's that the effort (the incredibly kludgy manual system) is soooo easily fixed. And that would kill half the whine all by itself.

And really, Blizz, this is all on you for creating a game with this underlying structure. There is a very thin layer of play, which lasts through Normal, and then it is all about loot loot loot and sell on the RMAH for your profit.

Fix your wretched premise or make it easier for those who enjoy it. Period.

Period!
07/03/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Lylirra
Why, if you have no philosophical problem with MF gear swapping, did you not include an option to have a gear swap button/alternative gear set?


Parting the veils a little bit here...

There was some debate about Magic Find gear swapping before the game shipped. Some of our developers and testers thought it was fun way to game the system, while others felt it was too much of a hassle. In the end, we decided to allow gear swapping, thinking that the players who wanted to do it would, and the players who don't enjoy the practice wouldn't. Of course, what actually happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.


Wait, so the reason why it isn't a feature is because a small group of casual players don't like collecting gear.... in a game all about collecting gear?

You have to be kidding me.
Stop making this complicated. If you aren't going to outright stop it from happening, then mainstreaming it is exactly what needs to happen. It's still a players choice. I have friends that have no desire to play Inferno. They get that where the big gear drops, but they "just don't want to work that hard." The game will still be plenty fun for them. The gear swap button is such a perfect solution it's ridiculous. And yes, your servers will be strained more. Sorry, but that's the business we're in. I work in restaurants. When we get busier, we order more food and hire more servers to handle it.

Oh, and yes, they DO have to carry around more gear to be efficient about it! That's the whole point! More gear!
Edited by Dolomedes03#1398 on 7/3/2012 11:38 AM PDT
07/03/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Lylirra
happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.

So why exactly are you gonna cater to people with misguided perception, as you stated, what they "felt" happens in their heads, not because its true or neccessary, just because they "felt" that way. This is a really bad road to get on, obliging the mental difficient. You could easily explain to them (or could have before the community lost all faith in responses) that is was a lapse in their own perception and to just not look at it that way, the player base is assumed to be too dumb for what we are asking for but then you respond in action to the dumbest cross-section of the demographic.
Here is a perfect example of why the whole process of swapping gear quickly for the sole purpose of MF is bad.

John Doe has a level 60 in inferno.
John Doe decides to go full glass cannon, and has 200k+ DPS and only 8k life.
John Doe has a magic button that will instantly switch every single piece of gear in the blink of an eye.

Suddenly John Doe sees a fireball coming at him, that's going to hit him for 100k. There is no way for John to avoid this, so he hits his magic button, and it instantly switches all his gear with gear that maxes out his vitality at the cost of damage or anything, and suddenly now he has 108k life, so he survives the attack, and is able to switch back, and he's back in his DPS gear again, with all 8k life, ready to hit his magic button again should need arise.

...

Except it doesn't work like that. When you swap gear and add vitality, it isn't an instant heal, is it? No, it only raises your max, you still have to use a potion/regenerate/leech that health back up, because if you didn't have to, wouldn't that completely break the game? What would be the point of having vitality in the first place if you could simply just switch to it when you needed it?

Why should magic find be any different?


How does jondoe heal up the hp difference untill the missile lands?
Even if his hp increases after swap,he still gonna be 2000/ 1000000 hp , rather then 2000*/8000, no?
School....

(By the way, saying that you'd prefer a button over the other options is totally valid feedback, as is saying that you'd prefer to see no change at all. Just keep in mind that our goal, if possible, is to come up with a viable solution to the problem of players feeling like they need to gear swap even if they don't actually feel like it's fun gameplay.)


Yes please add a button


If Diablo 3 was ANYTHING like the D2 in regards to the QUALITY of 'rare' items when one DID drop, this discussion about MF would not even be an issue.


THIS. Finally someone else realized the real ROOT CAUSE
Edited by Stigma#1959 on 7/3/2012 11:38 AM PDT
a gear swap option or leave it as is
[quote="60084711086"]
By the way, saying that you'd prefer a button over the other options is totally valid feedback, as is saying that you'd prefer to see no change at all. Just keep in mind that our goal is to potentially come up with a viable solution to the problem of players feeling like they need to gear swap even if they don't actually feel like it's fun gameplay.


This is hypocritical. This translates into "You can say you want no change/swap button and this is a valid feedback. However we won't take it into account."

Then why on earth are you even asking us?
07/03/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Lylirra
Right now, we're opening discussion to the community on how best to move forward. We're considering a lot of different solutions (some of which were pulled from ideas posted in these forums) and would like your feedback. We realize that there are pros and cons to every solution we listed, and want to get your take on them as well. If you have alternative ideas, please feel free to share them!


After you decide to focus on changing aspects of the game based on feedback on the forums, couldn't we be allowed to vote on it?

Would you really zero out MF after gear swap because 1-5% of the player base complained, when the majority either likes the way it is or could care less about it?
85 Orc Hunter
9265
07/03/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Lylirra
So, when Wyatt says we "didn't have a problem with it philosophically," it means we were aware of the practice of gear swapping and understood that the player base had differing opinions on it, but didn't want to make any changes to it unless the community asked for it outright (since we knew it was fun for a select group of players).


So you are aware then, that having a gear set with 300+ yields the best chance for decent gear to drop. And the reason you need so much MF on a gear set is because of the drop mechanics in the game, right? Drop mechanics that were created by you guys.

Diablo 3 is a fun game that requires a lot of skill to be great at and like ever game made ever, there are people who want to get to that next level. If that means gear swapping, then thats what it means. Gear swapping is a skill that requires a certain level of micro (clicking on individual items fast enough) and comes with a certain risk (possibly your toon dying, which is a bigger financial risk now) and also hinders the amount of bag space we have. I gear swap because I want better gear and I am willing to risk it and don't mind jumping back to town to sell/craft/stash items. But I am also in situations where I don't want to risk dying, because I would rather just kill the elite and move on. In the end its MY CHOICE to gear swap to my higher MF set.

Magic Find has been a staple in Diablo games and no, maybe there was no official blue post on how to get the best gear by gear swapping MF sets, but the GAME encourages you to do this by design. When I first started playing, I was confused as to what MF was and how it worked but when I saw the payoff of switching to high sets and I understood drop mechanics, I saw the benefit of gear swapping. If someone doesn't want to gear swap ever, then let them sit with the MF they have and they can farm and farm to their hearts content until they either get lucky and get a drop with decent dps/surivival stats, or they can buy upgrades from the AH.

My point is MF benefits the player but comes at a risk. If you change MF there must be a change in drop rate/mechanics. None of the solutions that have been offered seem to benefit the player and will discourage a lot of people from playing. I WANT TO KEEP PLAYING THIS GAME!!!! But constant changing to core mechanics of Diablo is very discouraging.
07/03/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Sleepfazt
AVERAGE ALL THE MF IN YOUR INVENTORY AND STASH


How does this even mathematically work out?


How does your suggestion not devalue real gear with MF? If you get your MF from this secondary set (which is for MF purposes only) then there's no reason to ever get MF on real gear.

OR are you suggesting that this is done in addition to using the MF on whatever your primary gear set is? If that's the case, then how does this solve anything? People will continue to swap their primary set out.


It doesn't devalue it. It leaves its value as is CURRENTLY. As it stands right now, people that want to swap into an MF set do. My solution allows them to swap into an MF set permanently so to speak, without having to hit 16654 keys each time to do it. That is all.

A 350% cap means that players are free to hit the cap however they want. So if they find a piece of combat gear and want to equip it, and then find a blue with 20% Mf they put that in the 'magic stone'.

Its literally no different than saying that MF in a players inventory will now count toward their MF. It does nothing but eliminate hotkey/scripting to swap gear. The players that are currently swaping into an MF set obviously don't value mf on combat gear or they wouldn't be swaping.

Hence, no change in current value of MF combat gear. Whatever value those players give it now, they will continue to give it after my solution.


Everyone will put MF gear into that magic stone. For any given player, is that gear sufficient to hit the cap?

If YES - No reason to ever use real MF gear, because it's better to just get all your MF for free (the magic stone) and dedicate your primary set to real stats.

If NO - Players still have an incentive to get more MF. Since primary gear still raises MF, the initial gear swappers will still swap their primary gear for MF gear. The problem isn't addressed, you just made it easy for everyone to get free MF.
Buff NV Stacks
stack 1=35
stack 2=65
stack 3=95
stack 4=130
stack 5=160
.....
Stack 6=190
Stack 7=220
Stack 8=250

The last 3 stacks are removed if you die....
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