Diablo® III

little plot holes

There's problems with the story. There's big problems that other people have addressed but there are also other little problems.
For example: The whole thing with the Khaza staff.
After the spider caves, you can't get through a plot door without a maguffin. Ok. That's fine. That's a staple of videogames I don't have a problem with.

But the plot door is literally a bunch of sticks and hides and far weaker than the doors you've broken down before. So you kill your way through goatmen to recover their stolen/lost staff to later present to them as a peace offering to let you travel through their territory. These are the same Khaza/goatmen (demons of Baal in D2) that the nephlem dismisses as being unimportant and an obstacle to be casually killed in an earlier quest for the first sword piece.
Because YOU can't possibly knock down their sticks and kill your way through them. THEY have to knock down their sticks so you can kill your way through them... O.o

You could have exactly the same gameplay and remove the plot hole by changing a couple of lines. The goatmen's magic controls the normal animals so the cultists are controlling the goatmen with the staff/maguffin. Break the maguffin and the cultists lose control. Everything still continues to attack you but at least now there's an in game reason why everything gangs up on the player, but doesn't attack each other. Plot gate opens because cultists are dead.

Or another example:
Skeleton King's crown (the one that was a 100% quest drop in Diablo 1 and some adventurer took/sold to a merchant) is needed to open the door next to where you first meet Cain. mkay.

But you also need the crown to place on the intact skeleton left sitting on the throne. Which is apparently the same bunch of bones destroyed in Diablo 1 to awaken the already awake and incorporeal skeleton king... so you can kick over the throne and get through the door under it to the crater which is your actual goal. Which you couldn't do with the inanimate bones on the throne. Guess they were heavy or something.
Instead the crown/bones don't even have to be there. The SK could hold his ground in that room because you're messing with his throne and he doesn't like anyone doing that.

It doesn't fix other issues like why the Prime Evil of Sin and =tactics= is attacking the most fortified keep anywhere in order to get the black soulstone that isn't there yet. Which you either arrive at after it's besieged for weeks through the hordes of demons, or before it's besieged and stand on top of admiring the view of the battle for weeks. (I still can't quite figure which one it was.) But you eventually help by fire = good. Makes men happy seeing fire? As opposed to putting out fires and raising flags that say "This part of the keep is safe, keep fighting and I'll get to your part next."

The game is full of this stuff. And all it is just yellowkeycard in the yellowdoor. But instead yellowcat into the yelllowpillow. With just a few minor changes it could actually make some sense while keeping exactly the same gameplay.

Though you're absolutely right not to let the players have a rope in Act 1. Skipping half of Act 1 with a simple and common item like that would have been bad too.

I guess what I'm really saying:
I'd like a button to turn off the story. Just let me kill what I want to kill in the order I want to kill it. Even if I'm killing Kuel before Magda. The more I have to go through each distinct quest/chapter with nonsense objectives on the right side of screen, the more it's bothering me.
Edited by Tautology#1787 on 7/4/2012 8:18 AM PDT
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I guess what I'm really saying:
I'd like a button to turn off the story. Just let me kill what I want to kill in the order I want to kill it. Even if I'm killing Kuel before Magda. The more I have to go through each distinct quest/chapter with nonsense objectives on the right side of screen, the more it's bothering me.

Farming is no fun if the "story" is constantly slowing it down.

I've had Fortune shrines expire seconds before I kill a boss because of the wasted time at the start to do the slow fade in/wait a moment/slow fade out that you still get when you instantly cancel a cutscene. I've had my Archon form fade midway through a fight because the action stopped so somebody (Maghda, in this case) could yap at me and I couldn't skip it.

A big +1: Let me turn off the story, if I'm playing Diablo I just want to kill things.
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Bcoz the Dev this time round is ActiBlizz not blizzard north.
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Posts: 1,194
In your first example you are talking about the Khaza staff. That is most likely the remnants of the removed Artisian's questline whom you saved in the spider cave. The reason why they attacked you is because they are being manipulated by the cultists, as well as you having their staff.

I don't understand why they had an ambush around the area with the cart, but they didn't retrieve their staff when it was in plain view.

In the second example of the SK n all, you didn't need to kill the Skeleton King to reach the the Fallen Star. But it would be a horrible idea to let him wreck havoc in his incorporeal form to the town of New Tristram. So you force his spirit into his body, and send him back to the unformed lands or wherever he'd go. I don't remember what happened in the first game, but I'd say it would be a safe assumption to say we didn't destroy him. We just incapacitated his spirit.

I dont really understand what your problems with the third act were, other then the whole Azmodan thing. The whole act kinda reminded me of Lord of the Rings. Maybe a bit too much......

I'm perfectly fine with the options to skip dialogue we have now. Space to skip dialogue segments and esc to skip whole sections.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/4/2012 10:41 PM PDT
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07/04/2012 10:40 PMPosted by AscendedOne
That is most likely the remnants of the removed Artisian's questline whom you saved in the spider cave. The reason why they attacked you is because they are being manipulated by the cultists, as well as you having their staff.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. You can rip out a section of story but it has to be the whole section. If you only rip out a part of it then you are going to create a plot hole.
  • Story - Plot point = Plot hole
This is my problem with the staff quest. The removed artisan stuff has nothing to do with plot except in the sense it created a plot hole. IE if a part is broken on your car you remove and replace it. If you only remove it, it will be very noticeable. A story suffers the same way.

Get enough of these together and all you are left with is random nonsense. The sad thing is that a couple of very simple lines of dialogue patches these holes. But because of the Act/chapter/quest system -- which is completely irrelevant to the gameplay* -- it becomes very obvious, jarring, distracting and annoying. Games don't need a good story to be a good game. Hell, they don't need any story at all. Bejeweled is fine with no story. But they really can't have a bad story that you are constantly tripping over and getting in the way of the core gameplay.
07/04/2012 10:40 PMPosted by AscendedOne
In the second example of the SK n all, you didn't need to kill the Skeleton King to reach the the Fallen Star. But it would be a horrible idea to let him wreck havoc in his incorporeal form to the town of New Tristram. So you force his spirit into his body, and send him back to the unformed lands or wherever he'd go. I don't remember what happened in the first game, but I'd say it would be a safe assumption to say we didn't destroy him. We just incapacitated his spirit.

You do need to kill the SK to reach the fallen star. Killing him opens a plot door. You can't avoid, skip or do anything else. Yes it's a horrible idea to let him continue doing his bad stuff, but that's completely irrelevant to the plot door of the broken star. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other except the fact that the throne is a literal plot door. That's not enough. If the SK was interacting with the crater or the stranger in any way shape or form or a hundred other easy fixes then it would make a little sense. If the SK was keeping Tyreal prisoner or had a spell on him to paralyze him, etc etc etc there would some sort of relationship between the plot and the plot door. But there isn't. They are completely unrelated to each other =except for= the plot door. And because they are unrelated you can ask "If my goal is to get to the bottom of a big hole, why don't I use a big rope?"

For the record:
The goatmen are attacking because the sword piece has them all riled up. Also because they are Khaza and they regularly attack people according to a log book. (So how the sword piece is making them act different... idk.)

The cultists have nothing to do with the goatmen, nor vice-versa. There is no stated reason why goatmen don't just attack the cultists too. It doesn't say they are being controlled by cultists. There is no reason (plot wise) why everything in the game attacks you but nothing attacks each other. That's fine gameplay-wise, but not story-wise.

The skeleton king was defeated by a hero many years ago. That's the story repeated stated in Diablo 3, and Diablo 1 you were that hero. But apparently after the hero repeatedly hit the physical bones of the skeleton king with his +10 mace of keen sharpness until the SK stopped moving <i>he then picked up all the bones and arranged them neatly on the throne</i> for the player to find in D3. The whole "incapacitated his spirit" thing is something you just made up. (Which makes more sense, but isn't in the game.) In fact the whole spirit/body thing isn't explained at all in the story of the game. Again, easily fixed with a single sentence. Point is, it's not there.

*note that the developers have officially defined the core game as "the item hunt". Anything that does not support, complement nor add to the core game play shouldn't be there. But anything that detracts from it definitely should not be there. The story detracts because it is nonsense and you are constantly reminded of that nonesense because it's constantly on the right side of the screen.
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Since you don't understand the problems with Act3, here are some of them:

--There is no reason for Azmodan to attack Bastion's Keep -for weeks- but there's lots of reasons for him not to.
--There is no reason why Azmodan has not been attacking Sanctuary for the past 20 years since the worldstone was destroyed.
--It makes no sense how the player got there either through the army of demons, or why the hero let things get as bad as they are when the player starts playing.
--Raising catapults helps fight battles. Signal fires do not. Signal fires tell people that are far away and not standing next to the fire some info. They do not "raise spirits".
--All of the walls are overrun with demons. But apparently the real threat to the keep is a big demon (Ghom) that can't get through small doorways. He went into the sub-basement from the basement instead of higher into the keep. Plus Ghom is a bigger threat down in the sub-basement than controlling the bridge to the keep, the demons immediately outside the gate, or Azmodan himself. There is no plot reason why he can't be skipped. He's not even blocking a plot door. There are far more important things story wise to worry about.
--The sin hearts. They are a maguffin with absolutely no point. They power the demon armies outside of hell. IE the demons you've just destroyed getting into hell to destroy the sin hearts.

tl;dr
The plot objectives that make some sense in Act 3 are:
  • Keep siege weapons
  • Demon siege weapons
  • Seigebreaker
  • Azmodan

The plot objectives that make NO sense in Act 3 are:
  • Everything else
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Posts: 1,194
Since you don't understand the problems with Act3, here are some of them:

--There is no reason for Azmodan to attack Bastion's Keep -for weeks- but there's lots of reasons for him not to.
--There is no reason why Azmodan has not been attacking Sanctuary for the past 20 years since the worldstone was destroyed.
--It makes no sense how the player got there either through the army of demons, or why the hero let things get as bad as they are when the player starts playing.
--Raising catapults helps fight battles. Signal fires do not. Signal fires tell people that are far away and not standing next to the fire some info. They do not "raise spirits".
--All of the walls are overrun with demons. But apparently the real threat to the keep is a big demon (Ghom) that can't get through small doorways. He went into the sub-basement from the basement instead of higher into the keep. Plus Ghom is a bigger threat down in the sub-basement than controlling the bridge to the keep, the demons immediately outside the gate, or Azmodan himself. There is no plot reason why he can't be skipped. He's not even blocking a plot door. There are far more important things story wise to worry about.
--The sin hearts. They are a maguffin with absolutely no point. They power the demon armies outside of hell. IE the demons you've just destroyed getting into hell to destroy the sin hearts.


I said I didn't understand what YOUR problems with act 3 were, not that I didn't understand that act 3 had problems.

1. He probably didn't have a choice, Bastions keep was probably blocking him off from the rest of the world. But yes it was never explained why he was attacking Bastion's keep.
2. He was preparing, he probably couldn't go into sanctuary as soon as the World Stone was destroyed and it wasn't a great idea for him to go unprepared.
3. Who says he didnt? They just didn't use that part in their story. It probably got that bad because the hero isn't capable of teleporting halfway across the world in a moment.
4. The signal fires ment that the hero was able to fight the demons off the wall, pushing the demons back. Perhaps a small victory was enough to restore spirits.
5. The walls weren't as bad as they were when the hero killed all the demons up there. The keep was being flooded from the ground up. The hero needed to clear all the demons down there. It wasn't a good idea to leave a major demon down there.
6. They were..... But they did empower all nearby demons, not just the ones outside the Crater. It probably wouldn't have been a good idea to leave them alive to empower Azmodan. They didn't need to be in the plot at all.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/5/2012 6:40 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,194
You do need to kill the SK to reach the fallen star. Killing him opens a plot door. You can't avoid, skip or do anything else. Yes it's a horrible idea to let him continue doing his bad stuff, but that's completely irrelevant to the plot door of the broken star. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other except the fact that the throne is a literal plot door. That's not enough. If the SK was interacting with the crater or the stranger in any way shape or form or a hundred other easy fixes then it would make a little sense. If the SK was keeping Tyreal prisoner or had a spell on him to paralyze him, etc etc etc there would some sort of relationship between the plot and the plot door. But there isn't. They are completely unrelated to each other =except for= the plot door. And because they are unrelated you can ask "If my goal is to get to the bottom of a big hole, why don't I use a big rope?"


Gameplay wise, yes they forced you to kill him to get to the star. But I dont believe they ever said you needed the SK dead to get to Tyrael. It was merely closed because you should be killing him before you meet up with Tyrael.

For the record:
The goatmen are attacking because the sword piece has them all riled up. Also because they are Khaza and they regularly attack people according to a log book. (So how the sword piece is making them act different... idk.)

The cultists have nothing to do with the goatmen, nor vice-versa. There is no stated reason why goatmen don't just attack the cultists too. It doesn't say they are being controlled by cultists. There is no reason (plot wise) why everything in the game attacks you but nothing attacks each other. That's fine gameplay-wise, but not story-wise.


There are lore books that state that the cultists are manipulating the khaza.

*note that the developers have officially defined the core game as "the item hunt". Anything that does not support, complement nor add to the core game play shouldn't be there. But anything that detracts from it definitely should not be there. The story detracts because it is nonsense and you are constantly reminded of that nonesense because it's constantly on the right side of the screen.


I have never been significantly hindered by the story unless I allowed it.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/5/2012 10:34 PM PDT
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07/05/2012 05:59 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Gameplay wise, yes they forced you to kill him to get to the star. But I dont believe they ever said you needed the SK dead to get to the Tyrael. It was merely closed because you should be killing him before you meet up Tyrael.


The falling star left a giant hole through the cathedral so explain why the hero didn't just buy rope.
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Posts: 1,194
07/05/2012 08:11 PMPosted by LittleDisco
Gameplay wise, yes they forced you to kill him to get to the star. But I dont believe they ever said you needed the SK dead to get to the Tyrael. It was merely closed because you should be killing him before you meet up Tyrael.


The falling star left a giant hole through the cathedral so explain why the hero didn't just buy rope.


Cuz the crater is "blue" hot, your rope would burn up when you throw it in, regardless of whether or not it is touching the edges.
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07/05/2012 08:16 PMPosted by AscendedOne


The falling star left a giant hole through the cathedral so explain why the hero didn't just buy rope.


Cuz the crater is "blue" hot, your rope would burn up when you throw it in, regardless of whether or not it is touching the edges.


Have a rope enchanted with fire resistance.

Or boots enchanted with Spock.
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Posts: 1,194


Cuz the crater is "blue" hot, your rope would burn up when you throw it in, regardless of whether or not it is touching the edges.


Have a rope enchanted with fire resistance.

Or boots enchanted with Spock.


The shopkeepers have lost their rope shipment to treasure goblins, and you did not have the foresight to bring rope with you.
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Have a rope enchanted with fire resistance.

Or boots enchanted with Spock.


The shopkeepers have lost their rope shipment to treasure goblins, and you did not have the foresight to bring rope with you.


You know...I thought that mayor was up to something shady.

Think he's a treasure goblin in disguise?
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Posts: 1,194
You know...I thought that mayor was up to something shady.

Think he's a treasure goblin in disguise?


No. Hes gotta be at least 4 goblins. 1 for the head, one for the base, and 2 for his belly.
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Posts: 25
If you look at the map, it would appear as if Bastions keep would be the port access to the Arreat Crater. Thus, you need to take the keep or walk through water. Of course that's not clearly explained. There's also the fact that Bastions keep was designed to keep the Barbarians in the north, so it probably was located at one of the few spots that you could reasonably navigate through.

There's still plenty of plot holes, and it's more than a bit weak at times, but the door thing I usually chalk up to "If this was a book, there would have been an entire chapter on the rituals of opening the door, but it's a game, so you kill the baddie and it magically opens."

Edit: Wallpaper on this site: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/media/wallpapers/?keywords=&view#/wallpaper008
Edited by FireTornado#1848 on 7/5/2012 10:49 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,194
07/05/2012 10:30 PMPosted by Kujas
If you look at the map,


Where is this map?
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