Diablo® III

The Wisdom of Tyrael

Do you want me to explain what D3athStrik3 was talking about or not?


I thought you just did.


That's right and you complained about it.

The statement is deeply flawed as it implies that anyone who fights evil will become evil. This is why the passerby asks why they should fight evil when it will just result in them becoming evil.


Flawed maybe, but not idiotic.


It's idiotic because it's flawed. Tyrael is basically saying that fighting evil = becoming evil, yet he wants people to fight evil. There's no logic behind that statement.

Didn't Leah get captured by guards? Tyrael didn't know about their disguise yet, so maybe he didn't want to cause unnessiary blood shed.


That doesn't explain why Tyrael didn't stop the guard's capture Leah or how he avoided being captured.

And by your logic nothing exists in Sanctuary beyond what we have already seen. We can assume he wasn't being a coach potato. Tyrael is an angel, I'd assume hes pretty motivated to stop the burning hells.


Given that a map of the Sanctuary was shown during two cut scenes it's safe to assume that this is the whole Sanctuary.

Just because Tyrael is an angel doesn't mean he's motivated to stop the burning hells. None of the other angels seemed bothered by demons attacking the Sanctuary. Also just because Tyrael is fighting against demons doesn't make him wise or a tactical genius who can lead an army. He's shown as a strong warrior, nothing more.

Fine.... Just wait and see what they do with it when an expansion comes out. Why judge something before we see what it was ment for?


If Tyrael acts wisely in a sequel I'll admit he became wise. However until this happens all the evidence indicates that Tyrael isn't wise and has made some bad decisions.
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That's right and you complained about it.


Because hes basing a statement on the Bible which has it's own "lore" which Diablo's is not nessiarily a part of.

It's idiotic because it's flawed. Tyrael is basically saying that fighting evil = becoming evil, yet he wants people to fight evil. There's no logic behind that statement.


Giving into evil would speed the proccess along, while on the other hand they can hold out for as long as they can and perhaps ultimately "win" with the help of the nephalem. It may be flawed, but they don't extactly have a better option.

That doesn't explain why Tyrael didn't stop the guard's capture Leah or how he avoided being captured.


Does it need to be explained?

Given that a map of the Sanctuary was shown during two cut scenes it's safe to assume that this is the whole Sanctuary.


A map has been shown but nothing else, all the map shows are locations and areas. And anything the map doesn't show, and we dont know about, (by reading books stories or playing the games) doesn't exist. Logic....

Just because Tyrael is an angel doesn't mean he's motivated to stop the burning hells. None of the other angels seemed bothered by demons attacking the Sanctuary. Also just because Tyrael is fighting against demons doesn't make him wise or a tactical genius who can lead an army. He's shown as a strong warrior, nothing more.


Those other angels are bound by law, Tyrael is essentially rebelling against that law. They most likely don't know about all the details about whats happening on Sanctuary. Tyrael is on sanctuary against those laws, is one of the major angels on the council and clearly does what needs to be done. I'd say its fairly safe to say hes motivated. Have you read the books? Do you know all of Tyrael's backstory? (I don't) It's not really much of an army, does it really take a master strategist to command less then 300 active troops to hold out in a defensive position?
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/15/2012 5:14 PM PDT
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07/15/2012 05:01 PMPosted by AscendedOne
It's not really much of an army, does it really take a master strategist to command less then 300 active troops to hold out in a defensive position?


Yes. Yes, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo
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Yes. Yes, it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo


But did they have a super powerful nephalem going and carving a path through all the demons while they only had to deal with the leftovers?
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07/15/2012 05:01 PMPosted by AscendedOne
It's idiotic because it's flawed. Tyrael is basically saying that fighting evil = becoming evil, yet he wants people to fight evil. There's no logic behind that statement.


Giving into evil would speed the proccess along, while on the other hand they can hold out for as long as they can and perhaps ultimately "win" with the help of the nephalem. It may be flawed, but they don't extactly have a better option.


That's nothing like what Tyrael said. Tyrael said to the nephalem that those who fight evil become evil. That's not something you'd say to someone who you wanted to fight evil with you.

That doesn't explain why Tyrael didn't stop the guard's capture Leah or how he avoided being captured.


Does it need to be explained?


It does if you want to explain how Leah got captured without Tyrael being a complete idiot.

A map has been shown but nothing else, all the map shows are locations and areas. And anything the map doesn't show, and we dont know about, (by reading books stories or playing the games) doesn't exist. Logic....


Well unless there's a lost continent somewhere that nobody knows about it's safe to say that there isn't anywhere else in the world.

Those other angels are bound by law, Tyrael is essentially rebelling against that law. They most likely don't know about all the details about whats happening on Sanctuary. Tyrael is on sanctuary against those laws, is one of the major angels on the council and clearly does what needs to be done. I'd say its fairly safe to say hes motivated. Have you read the books? Do you know all of Tyrael's backstory? (I don't)


What laws are you talking about? The ones made by the Angiris Council, of which Tyrael is a member.

The angels do know what is happening in the Sanctuary and put Tyrael on trial because of what he did in the Sanctuary.

I do know Tyrael's back story. He constantly clashed with Imperius, Izual and Inarius served under him, he descended to the Sanctuary during the Sin War to investigate it, he initially decided to destroy humanity but changes his mind after Uldyssian sacrificed himself, helped the Horadrim capture the prime evils with soulstones over several decades, tried to prevent Baal being freed by Diablo, and destroyed the world stone.

During this entire time he never felt the need to become a mortal to do any of this. Nor did he want to directly fight against any of the lords of hell (expect to prevent Diablo freeing Baal). That's why Tyrael becoming a mortal and wanting to fight against Azmodan and Belial was not only out of character but stupid. He'd witnessed humanity capture the 3 prime evils, beat the 3 prime evils and 2 lesser evils; yet for some reason felt that he had to intervene personally to defeat the last 2 lesser evils.

It's not really much of an army, does it really take a master strategist to command less then 300 active troops to hold out in a defensive position?


You'd be surprised how easy it is to lose a defensive position if your enemy is a master strategist or has a very large army.

Also why would they give Tyrael control of the Keep if they had a better strategist?
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That's nothing like what Tyrael said. Tyrael said to the nephalem that those who fight evil become evil. That's not something you'd say to someone who you wanted to fight evil with you.


Well it isn't, but I don't see your point there. The nephalem will likely be able to resist the demonic influence for a good portion of their life and is determined to stop the demonic war from coming to Sanctuary.

It does if you want to explain how Leah got captured without Tyrael being a complete idiot.


So you will go on assuming that it is because hes stupid, and i'll go on assuming it is because there was a reason for it.

Well unless there's a lost continent somewhere that nobody knows about it's safe to say that there isn't anywhere else in the world.


Not talking something along the lines of a lost continent, stuff more like, caves, small towns, carvans, people we haven't see but obviously exist as there is obviously people we haven't seen. Or again, your logic..... NONE OF THOSE THING EXIST BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SEEN THEM.

What laws are you talking about? The ones made by the Angiris Council, of which Tyrael is a member. The angels do know what is happening in the Sanctuary and put Tyrael on trial because of what he did in the Sanctuary.


K... Don't know why you brought up that he was in the Council. He doesn't have the power or authority to ignore or create laws without a majority vote on the Council. I said details, they obviously know demons are down there, stuff like:

How many?
How many have joined with the demons in the cults n stuff?
How many are under demonic influence but not quite "there"?
ETC

I do know Tyrael's back story. He constantly clashed with Imperius, Izual and Inarius served under him, he descended to the Sanctuary during the Sin War to investigate it, he initially decided to destroy humanity but changes his mind after Uldyssian sacrificed himself, helped the Horadrim capture the prime evils with soulstones over several decades, tried to prevent Baal being freed by Diablo, and destroyed the world stone.

During this entire time he never felt the need to become a mortal to do any of this. Nor did he want to directly fight against any of the lords of hell (expect to prevent Diablo freeing Baal). That's why Tyrael becoming a mortal and wanting to fight against Azmodan and Belial was not only out of character but stupid. He'd witnessed humanity capture the 3 prime evils, beat the 3 prime evils and 2 lesser evils; yet for some reason felt that he had to intervene personally to defeat the last 2 lesser evils.


Back then he was able to do that stuff without the Council knowing, now that the Council knows he is doing stuff in Sanctuary, they aren't going to let it slide. Becoming mortal was his way to contiune helping Sanctuary out. At that current point in time where he didn't want to fight against any of the Prime or Lesser Evils directly, they weren't on Sanctuary. And even on his last adventure they needed him to destroy the corrupted worldstone or else they would have fallen prey to the legions of demons coming for them.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to lose a defensive position if your enemy is a master strategist or has a very large army.

Also why would they give Tyrael control of the Keep if they had a better strategist?


Again... Nephalem carving through troops, only defending from leftovers after the guy leaves the keep. My assumption would be that the old strategist died or was not in the keep at the time of the invasion.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/16/2012 8:48 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17275
07/16/2012 05:00 PMPosted by uanime5
Tyrael said to the nephalem that those who fight evil become evil. That's not something you'd say to someone who you wanted to fight evil with you.


"Kulle was once a tireless enemy of Hell. From his life, let us learn—the longer we fight evil, the more it can corrupt our hearts."

Tyrael says evil "can corrupt", not "will corrupt". One can fight evil indefinitely and never succumb to that corruption... it's all a matter of willpower.

Kulle felt empty and bitter. His desire for power grew into an obsession and he had no compunctions about using the souls of demons to strengthen himself. A more principled hero wouldn't give in to the same sort of temptations.
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That's nothing like what Tyrael said. Tyrael said to the nephalem that those who fight evil become evil. That's not something you'd say to someone who you wanted to fight evil with you.

Well it isn't, but I don't see your point there. The nephalem will likely be able to resist the demonic influence for a good portion of their life and is determined to stop the demonic war from coming to Sanctuary.


Why? Why is the nephalem going to resist the demonic influence when Izual was unable to? If anything he should be more susceptible to the demon's influence because he is not an angel.

It does if you want to explain how Leah got captured without Tyrael being a complete idiot.

So you will go on assuming that it is because hes stupid, and i'll go on assuming it is because there was a reason for it.


Assume away. Fact is that Tyrael left with Leah and she got captured. Something happened that got her captured and he's still free and he doesn't explain the situation, but seeing as it sort of was his duty to protect her, he's obviously failed. And because he doesn't have a good explanation why he failed, we assume he was an idiot.

Not gonna quote on the rest, not really interested in the map discussion, don't really care to be honest, it could go either way. But rest of the argument is pretty weak.
The council did not know? They made a pact with hell and they never bothered to check if hell was keeping their part of the bargain? That's just stupid.

And biggest stupidity, Tyrael had to fall and raise the dead so he could do what exactly besides advance the plot? Tell Caine that Belial was in Caldeum? Everybody knew that when you get there so it wasn't really news. Him falling was utterly pointless.
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Why? Why is the nephalem going to resist the demonic influence when Izual was unable to? If anything he should be more susceptible to the demon's influence because he is not an angel.


Well A. Izual was tortured back in hell and didn't they use demonic magic on him while imprisioned or whatever? And B. The nephalem in particular seems to have strong willpower and ETC.

Assume away. Fact is that Tyrael left with Leah and she got captured. Something happened that got her captured and he's still free and he doesn't explain the situation, but seeing as it sort of was his duty to protect her, he's obviously failed. And because he doesn't have a good explanation why he failed, we assume he was an idiot.


People can fail to do something without it being their fault for failing. You shouldn't need a complete mapped out scenario for one small thing.

Not gonna quote on the rest, not really interested in the map discussion, don't really care to be honest, it could go either way. But rest of the argument is pretty weak.
The council did not know? They made a pact with hell and they never bothered to check if hell was keeping their part of the bargain? That's just stupid.


Sigh..... I was saying you were stupid for assuming nothing exists intill they actually tell us about it, after you called my thing stupid for assuming Tyrael is doing something when they didn't say he was doing something. It wasn't about the map. I wasn't talking about hells involvement in Sanctuary going unnoticed, I was talking about Tyrael's involvement. From what I know, they know about Hell breaking the pact but they STILL aren't doing anything, could be wrong. I don't see anything that is weak about my arguement.

And biggest stupidity, Tyrael had to fall and raise the dead so he could do what exactly besides advance the plot? Tell Caine that Belial was in Caldeum? Everybody knew that when you get there so it wasn't really news. Him falling was utterly pointless.


It sounds like your not talking about Tyrael anymore, and instead talking about Blizzards decision to make him fall. What are you talking about? I don't remember anyone in the game knowing that Belial was in Caldeum. I remember something about us deciding to track Magda to Belial, but nothing about Belial being in Caldeum before Tyrael brings it up.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/17/2012 7:19 PM PDT
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07/16/2012 05:47 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Not talking something along the lines of a lost continent, stuff more like, caves, small towns, carvans, people we haven't see but obviously exist as there is obviously people we haven't seen. Or again, your logic..... NONE OF THOSE THING EXIST BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SEEN THEM.


Well if we never see these places and no one every mentions them it's reasonable to assume that they don't exist. After all planet Earth has large areas that are mostly empty and have a very low population, such as the Sahara desert and Siberia.

K... Don't know why you brought up that he was in the Council. He doesn't have the power or authority to ignore or create laws without a majority vote on the Council. I said details, they obviously know demons are down there, stuff like:

How many?
How many have joined with the demons in the cults n stuff?
How many are under demonic influence but not quite "there"?
ETC


Why would you assume Tyrael can't change the laws? Out of the 5 Council members 3 voted to save the Sanctuary, so the majority supports humanity. Only Imperius was ever shown wanting to destroy humanity.

If Tyrael wasn't such an idiot he would have tried to change these laws, rather than throw a tantrum and make himself mortal.

Back then he was able to do that stuff without the Council knowing, now that the Council knows he is doing stuff in Sanctuary, they aren't going to let it slide. Becoming mortal was his way to contiune helping Sanctuary out. At that current point in time where he didn't want to fight against any of the Prime or Lesser Evils directly, they weren't on Sanctuary. And even on his last adventure they needed him to destroy the corrupted worldstone or else they would have fallen prey to the legions of demons coming for them.


Why do you assume the council won't approve of what Tyrael's doing in the Sanctuary? The majority voted to spare the Sanctuary so they're not going to let the demons destroy it.

The notes make it clear Belial has been in Caldium for sometime and Tyrael makes it clear that he wants to fight against the last 2 demon lords before he tears off his wings. So your claim that the Lesser Evils weren't in the Sanctuary and that Tyrael didn't want to fight them is wrong. Worse still despite all his speeches about helping humanity Tyrael spends almost all his time in the camp and never tries to fight against any of the demon lords. It seems that his idea of helping humanity is standing around doing nothing.

Tyrael didn't need to become mortal to save the Sanctuary as humanity demonstrated very clearly that they can defeat Prime and Lesser evils. Becoming mortal was a stupid and pointless decision.

Finally people would realise Belial was in Caldium if all the cultists that worship Belial start heading there.

07/17/2012 05:50 PMPosted by AscendedOne
People can fail to do something without it being their fault for failing. You shouldn't need a complete mapped out scenario for one small thing.


Tyrael knew Belial was in Caldium yet failed to protect Leah from being captured by the Imperial Guards, while at the same time managing to escape. That's a pretty serious blunder; especially for someone who wants to be the personification of wisdom.
Edited by uanime5#2771 on 7/18/2012 11:54 AM PDT
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07/18/2012 11:49 AMPosted by uanime5
Tyrael knew Belial was in Caldium yet failed to protect Leah from being captured by the Imperial Guards, while at the same time managing to escape. That's a pretty serious blunder; especially for someone who wants to be the personification of wisdom.


He's the angel of justice, not competence.
Edited by LittleDisco#1482 on 7/18/2012 12:08 PM PDT
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"Kulle was once a tireless enemy of Hell. From his life, let us learn—the longer we fight evil, the more it can corrupt our hearts."

Tyrael says evil "can corrupt", not "will corrupt". One can fight evil indefinitely and never succumb to that corruption... it's all a matter of willpower.

Kulle felt empty and bitter. His desire for power grew into an obsession and he had no compunctions about using the souls of demons to strengthen himself. A more principled hero wouldn't give in to the same sort of temptations.


In the English language the word “Can” means ‘ability’ or ‘able.’
I can type (ability), I can’t spell (ability). Can you tell the difference between typos and spelling errors? (ability)
You can (ability) say such things as; “It can (possibility) rain today.” and everyone would know what you mean, however, everyone would also know that what you said is grammatically incorrect.

Thus … <…the more it can corrupt …> doesn’t mean possibility, chance, or could, it means the more that it is ABLE to corrupt.
“The more we fight evil, the more it is able to corrupt us”
Emphasis on the word “Can” doesn’t change the meaning (or meaninglessness) of the statement.

The immediate consequences of Tyrael’s statement are:
1) There is no such thing as ‘fighting evil’ there are only various stages of corruption.
1a) It is therefore pointless to “fight evil” or to interpret your actions as ‘fighting evil.’ Since the more you fight evil, the more you enable evil to corrupt you.
2) Assuming the existence of the High Heavens and their eternal war with evil, the High Heavens will ultimately lose and fall to corruption.

If Tyrael is attempting to generalize about the situation and draw some insight or wisdom, his generalization is immediately refuted by the existence and death of Deckard Cain.

If Tyrael’s statement were true, then Evil, becoming evil, would be the same as Death, an eventuality that no one escapes.

There’s only three things in this world you have to do. Pay Taxes. Die. And become corrupted by Evil. ???
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Well if we never see these places and no one every mentions them it's reasonable to assume that they don't exist. After all planet Earth has large areas that are mostly empty and have a very low population, such as the Sahara desert and Siberia.


Sigh.... All I'm saying is you can't assume the only things in the game are the things they have shown us so far, that the game is a motionless existance beyond the screen of our game's camera. Events, things, and people exist beyond what we have been shown in D3 and other sources of lore.

Why would you assume Tyrael can't change the laws? Out of the 5 Council members 3 voted to save the Sanctuary, so the majority supports humanity. Only Imperius was ever shown wanting to destroy humanity.

If Tyrael wasn't such an idiot he would have tried to change these laws, rather than throw a tantrum and make himself mortal.


So uhh.... You quote an instance of a majority vote as a reponse to me saying Tyrael can't make laws without a majority vote? You do realize that if he was going to change the laws, he would have attempted to do so before he went to Sanctuary at all rather then to justify going back? I don't know all the details about it, but I'm pretty sure that it would not have been overturned.

Why do you assume the council won't approve of what Tyrael's doing in the Sanctuary? The majority voted to spare the Sanctuary so they're not going to let the demons destroy it.

The notes make it clear Belial has been in Caldium for sometime and Tyrael makes it clear that he wants to fight against the last 2 demon lords before he tears off his wings. So your claim that the Lesser Evils weren't in the Sanctuary and that Tyrael didn't want to fight them is wrong. Worse still despite all his speeches about helping humanity Tyrael spends almost all his time in the camp and never tries to fight against any of the demon lords. It seems that his idea of helping humanity is standing around doing nothing.


Because they made the laws, and they will follow them as well. They will not interfer with Sanctuary regardless of how stupid it is not to considering hell broke the pact.

You misunderstand me, I ment at the time he didn't want to fight them directly, they weren't on Sanctuary yet. Don't assume that Tyrael wasn't doing something while your fighting Belial and Azmodan.......

Tyrael didn't need to become mortal to save the Sanctuary as humanity demonstrated very clearly that they can defeat Prime and Lesser evils. Becoming mortal was a stupid and pointless decision.

Finally people would realise Belial was in Caldium if all the cultists that worship Belial start heading there.


If Tyrael did not come to Sanctuary in D2, the Worldstone would still be corrupted and who knows what would have happened in the events before D1 and D2 without his help. Tyrael is not the type to just lay back and let stuff happen. What makes you think cultists don't exist in other parts of the world? They were in Tristram, not just Caldeum. What makes you think that the people of Caldeum know that Belial is on Sanctuary?

Tyrael knew Belial was in Caldium yet failed to protect Leah from being captured by the Imperial Guards, while at the same time managing to escape. That's a pretty serious blunder; especially for someone who wants to be the personification of wisdom.


Just because Tyrael knew Belial was in Caldeum doesn't make able to protect Leah from getting captured in every possible scenario. I'm going to say he didn't want to be wisdom at that time, and that probably has nothing to do with being wise. Just because you know something might happen doesn't make it an impossiblity.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/18/2012 9:00 PM PDT
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07/14/2012 05:10 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Fine.... Just wait and see what they do with it when an expansion comes out. Why judge something before we see what it was ment for?


The past is a good indicator of the future, so don't expect anything good. We'll probably have to decanonize the expansion, too.
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Fine.... Just wait and see what they do with it when an expansion comes out. Why judge something before we see what it was ment for?


The past is a good indicator of the future, so don't expect anything good. We'll probably have to decanonize the expansion, too.


Ah, so you think that because a few people on the forums say it isn't cannon it isn't cannon? Go ahead and ignore the game's lore, it doesn't change anything.

Edit: I don't believe it is possible to have the expansion be canon and the orginal game "decannoned".
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/18/2012 11:34 PM PDT
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07/18/2012 08:36 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Sigh.... All I'm saying is you can't assume the only things in the game are the things they have shown us so far, that the game is a motionless existance beyond the screen of our game's camera. Events, things, and people exist beyond what we have been shown in D3 and other sources of lore.


I consider any lore in the game as something shown to the player. So if the player goes to a place, is shown a place, or someone mentions a place then it exists.

Going back to the source of this allegory, as no one in Bastions Keep mentioned that Tyrael was a good commander and we never observed him demonstrating any tactical abilities it's clear that Tyrael was pretty useless. I think the only think he does is tells you to light the signal fires and asks the king of Westmarsh for help. For everything else at least 2 or 3 other people mention what you need to do.

So uhh.... You quote an instance of a majority vote as a reponse to me saying Tyrael can't make laws without a majority vote? You do realize that if he was going to change the laws, he would have attempted to do so before he went to Sanctuary at all rather then to justify going back? I don't know all the details about it, but I'm pretty sure that it would not have been overturned.


Tyrael didn't tell the angels about the prime evils being in the Sanctuary because he was worried that the angels would vote to destroy it, so he secretly helped the humans capture the prime evils.

The only prohibition against acting in the Sanctuary was the agreement between the angels and demons, something the demons had clearly broken when they corrupted the Worldstone. Why Imperius was demanding Tyrael obey this broken contract was never explained, though I suspect it's because the plot was so badly written.

Becoming mortal was a stupid decision when Tyrael clearly has other options available, such as having the archangels vote on whether the angels should help humanity fight against the demons.

You misunderstand me, I ment at the time he didn't want to fight them directly, they weren't on Sanctuary yet. Don't assume that Tyrael wasn't doing something while your fighting Belial and Azmodan.......


Your ignorance of D3 is painful to read.

Tyrael's message to humanity is that Belial is in Caldium so unless Tyrael saw Belial as he was falling from heaven it's clear that Belial must have been in the Sanctuary before Tyrael became a mortal.

Also during the player's fights with Belial and Azmodan Tyrael is quite clearly seen standing around in the Hidden Camp and Bastion's Keep doing nothing. Seriously what could be more important for Tyrael than fighting against the demon lords when his whole reason for becoming mortal was to fight against the demon lords.

If Tyrael did not come to Sanctuary in D2, the Worldstone would still be corrupted and who knows what would have happened in the events before D1 and D2 without his help. Tyrael is not the type to just lay back and let stuff happen. What makes you think cultists don't exist in other parts of the world? They were in Tristram, not just Caldeum. What makes you think that the people of Caldeum know that Belial is on Sanctuary?


Tyrael didn't need to become a mortal in the past or during D2 to be helpful.

The Cultists came to Tristram because Tyrael fell from heaven near Tristram (the player also came to Tristram for the same reason). The Cultists are in Tristram because of Tyrael and his sword, and in Caldium because that's were Belial is. That's why they don't show up until you try to find Tyrael's sword and disappear once you defeat their leader (Magna).

Magna is part of a cult that worships the demon lords, specifically Belial. The notes show that Belial is in contact with her and that the demons pretending to be guards are getting sacrifices for Belial. Finally once Belial attacks everyone for revolting against him it's very clear that Belial is in Caldium.

Just because Tyrael knew Belial was in Caldeum doesn't make able to protect Leah from getting captured in every possible scenario. I'm going to say he didn't want to be wisdom at that time, and that probably has nothing to do with being wise. Just because you know something might happen doesn't make it an impossiblity.


Tyrael specifically when with Leah to protect her. Yet someone she got captured and he was able to escape. So either he failed to protect her (not wise) or he let her get captured (not just).
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I consider any lore in the game as something shown to the player. So if the player goes to a place, is shown a place, or someone mentions a place then it exists.

Going back to the source of this allegory, as no one in Bastions Keep mentioned that Tyrael was a good commander and we never observed him demonstrating any tactical abilities it's clear that Tyrael was pretty useless. I think the only think he does is tells you to light the signal fires and asks the king of Westmarsh for help. For everything else at least 2 or 3 other people mention what you need to do.


If you teleport back between the signal fires and the catapults, Tyrael will tell you to go raise the catapults. They most likely had that guy there as to not interrupt gameplay by forcing you back to the keep. The lack of tacticalness shown by Tyrael is because they focused on what your charcter is doing, not what Tyrael was doing.

Tyrael didn't tell the angels about the prime evils being in the Sanctuary because he was worried that the angels would vote to destroy it, so he secretly helped the humans capture the prime evils.

The only prohibition against acting in the Sanctuary was the agreement between the angels and demons, something the demons had clearly broken when they corrupted the Worldstone.

Becoming mortal was a stupid decision when Tyrael clearly has other options available, such as having the archangels vote on whether the angels should help humanity fight against the demons.


In the cutscene Tyrael appears to be under the belief that regardless of Hells action on Sanctuary, that the Council will not break their part of the agreement. Then theres the fact that Tyrael just broke their laws and may not get the chance to voice his opinion in the council.

Your ignorance of D3 is painful to read.

Tyrael's message to humanity is that Belial is in Caldium so unless Tyrael saw Belial as he was falling from heaven it's clear that Belial must have been in the Sanctuary before Tyrael became a mortal.

Also during the player's fights with Belial and Azmodan Tyrael is quite clearly seen standing around in the Hidden Camp and Bastion's Keep doing nothing. Seriously what could be more important for Tyrael than fighting against the demon lords when his whole reason for becoming mortal was to fight against the demon lords.


But how does he know that Belial is still in Caldeum? It has been 20 years after all. Perhaps he found out the location of Belial while he was mortal (srsly, Magda has let so much stuff slip, it is getting kinda rediculous) and came to Sanctuary with only a warning?

He is standing there in camp because of a gameplay mechanic. They want you to be able to speak with him whenever you want. He could still be doing something useful.

Tyrael didn't need to become a mortal in the past or during D2 to be helpful.

The Cultists came to Tristram because Tyrael fell from heaven near Tristram (the player also came to Tristram for the same reason).

Magna is part of a cult that worships the demon lords, specifically Belial. The notes show that Belial is in contact with her and that the demons pretending to be guards are getting sacrifices for Belial. Finally once Belial attacks everyone for revolting against him it's very clear that Belial is in Caldium.


A situation changed, he wouldn't have been able to sneak off to Sanctuary anymore.

Yes, there was a reason for them to be in both Tristram and Caldeum. What makes you think there isn't a reason for them to exist elsewhere in Sanctuary? The messages from Belial were found by the nephilim, not the towns folk. And yes, it was obvious that their city was under siege by demons, but that is after all events happen, not before.

Tyrael specifically when with Leah to protect her. Yet someone she got captured and he was able to escape. So either he failed to protect her (not wise) or he let her get captured (not just).


Tyrael knew that Belial was in Caldeum. What other pieces of knowledge could he possibly have to prevent Leah from being captured? (other then of course intel about the situation which he didn't extactly have a way of getting at the time without going into the field) He was going into a scenario with minimal intel. To protect Leah he would have needed power, not wisdom. Power which he did not have. (if we assume that my theory that he was avoiding bloodshed is invalid for the situation)
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/23/2012 1:10 AM PDT
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Imperius *trollface*: kukuku...Soon, Tyrael...Soon...There's can only be one...
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07/22/2012 03:45 PMPosted by AscendedOne
If you teleport back between the signal fires and the catapults, Tyrael will tell you to go raise the catapults. They most likely had that guy there as to not interrupt gameplay by forcing you back to the keep. The lack of tacticalness shown by Tyrael is because they focused on what your charcter is doing, not what Tyrael was doing.


Irrelevant. The fact is that a sergeant knew what we should be doing, so Tyrael telling us to raise the catapults isn't evidence of his tactical ability. Neither is attacking the demons in the Keep or destroying the siege weapons as these were obvious dangers that even the lowliest soldier would recognise.

In the cutscene Tyrael appears to be under the belief that regardless of Hells action on Sanctuary, that the Council will not break their part of the agreement. Then theres the fact that Tyrael just broke their laws and may not get the chance to voice his opinion in the council.


Tyrael is on the council so unless they remove him from it he won't have any problems voicing his opinion.

But how does he know that Belial is still in Caldeum? It has been 20 years after all. Perhaps he found out the location of Belial while he was mortal (srsly, Magda has let so much stuff slip, it is getting kinda rediculous) and came to Sanctuary with only a warning?


I don't know how he knows about Belial but after you defeat the Butcher and give him back his sword he tells you that Belial is in Caldium.

If Tyrael found out where Belial is after he becomes mortal then why did her become mortal in the first place? Did he decide to become mortal simply to descend to the Sanctuary and say:

"There are two remaining demon lord who may be in the Sanctuary but they may also be in Hell and have no plans to ever come to the Sanctuary. Be on your guard."

If true then Tyrael became mortal to warn people of a threat that might not happen for thousands of years, if ever.

He is standing there in camp because of a gameplay mechanic. They want you to be able to speak with him whenever you want. He could still be doing something useful.


Tyrael says he became mortal because he wants to help humanity but stands around doing nothing and is never shown helping people. It's clear that he doesn't have any clue what he's doing.

As long as Tyrael was in an area the player could go then you could talk to Tyrael no matter what he was doing.

Yes, there was a reason for them to be in both Tristram and Caldeum. What makes you think there isn't a reason for them to exist elsewhere in Sanctuary?


The only things Belial is interested in are the black soulstone and the falling star, so there's no reason for the cultists to go elsewhere.

The messages from Belial were found by the nephilim, not the towns folk. And yes, it was obvious that their city was under siege by demons, but that is after all events happen, not before.


The Iron Wolves suspected something was wrong and had they gone to Alcarnus they would have all the proof they needed that Belial was attacking people. Also Belial kicked everyone out the City before you arrive so there was already a lot of unrest.

The rest of the act involving Adria, Zoltun Kulle, and the black soulstone doesn't have any effect on the people revolting against Belial so it wouldn't matter whether the Iron Wolves investigated this or not.

Tyrael knew that Belial was in Caldeum. What other pieces of knowledge could he possibly have to prevent Leah from being captured? (other then of course intel about the situation which he didn't extactly have a way of getting at the time without going into the field) He was going into a scenario with minimal intel. To protect Leah he would have needed power, not wisdom. Power which he did not have. (if we assume that my theory that he was avoiding bloodshed is invalid for the situation)


Tyrael didn't need intel to prevent Leah being captured, he just need to help her escape. Something he failed to do.

Also Tyrael does have power, which was demonstrated in Acts 3 and 4 when he briefly helps you. He would have been strong enough to delay anything in Act 2 which Leah ran away.
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