Diablo® III

The Wisdom of Tyrael

Irrelevant. The fact is that a sergeant knew what we should be doing, so Tyrael telling us to raise the catapults isn't evidence of his tactical ability. Neither is attacking the demons in the Keep or destroying the siege weapons as these were obvious dangers that even the lowliest soldier would recognise.


Perhaps he was sent by Tyrael. The lack of evidence does not prove that he has no tactical ability.

Tyrael is on the council so unless they remove him from it he won't have any problems voicing his opinion.


They aren't just going to let him on to the council after breaking laws with no repercussions.

If Tyrael found out where Belial is after he becomes mortal then why did her become mortal in the first place? Did he decide to become mortal simply to descend to the Sanctuary and say:

If true then Tyrael became mortal to warn people of a threat that might not happen for thousands of years, if ever.


He went down to help, he wasn't just coming down to deliver a message. He wanted to help Sanctuary. Hell was on the move, it was only a matter of time. Thousands of years sounds a little unrealistic for Azmodan to wait that long, and Belial was already rooted in Caldeum, trying to expand his power.

Tyrael says he became mortal because he wants to help humanity but stands around doing nothing and is never shown helping people. It's clear that he doesn't have any clue what he's doing.

As long as Tyrael was in an area the player could go then you could talk to Tyrael no matter what he was doing.


It would be more convient to the player if Tyrael was in the camp vs anywhere else. Why is it so clear he doesn't know what hes doing? Maybe hes trying to figure out where Belial is, was attacked by Belial's minions (while the city is under attack) or talking with Adria about their next move.

The only things Belial is interested in are the black soulstone and the falling star, so there's no reason for the cultists to go elsewhere.


How do you know that? He knew little about the Black Soulstone and was just torturing Adria for information. He would have been very interested in anything that could give him more power or influence. He wouldn't just stop with controling Caldeum, surely he would have had to spread his influence to other cities.

The Iron Wolves suspected something was wrong and had they gone to Alcarnus they would have all the proof they needed that Belial was attacking people. Also Belial kicked everyone out the City before you arrive so there was already a lot of unrest.


A iron wolf had a message sent to another iron wolf. I'm pretty sure the message was found on a corpse, so..... I'd say that the message didn't get through. It could have also been a fairly recent message. They knew about Alcarnus, which was the work of cultists, not Belial directly. Belial kicking everyone out does not directly infer that he is Belial, it could have been any number of other things. The child king is corrupt, a puppet, incredibly inexperienced or just a jackass.

Tyrael didn't need intel to prevent Leah being captured, he just need to help her escape. Something he failed to do.

Also Tyrael does have power, which was demonstrated in Acts 3 and 4 when he briefly helps you. He would have been strong enough to delay anything in Act 2 which Leah ran away.


He failed to help her escape because he didn't have enough power. He had power, he just didn't have enough because he lost his status of being an Archangel. Intel would also probably have done it. And I disagree, if Tyrael had been in the wrong place at the wrong time, 8+ guards could have prevent Tyrael from helping Leah, espacially if he didn't want to cause unnecessary bloodshed. Tell me what pieces of wisdom could have helped him escape with Leah which power and intel would have failed to do.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/25/2012 4:41 PM PDT
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07/25/2012 04:33 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Perhaps he was sent by Tyrael. The lack of evidence does not prove that he has no tactical ability.


If there's no evidence to prove Tyrael has tactical ability then there's no reason to assume that he does.

Assuming Tyrael has tactical ability when he never displays any is like assuming Tyrael is a dancer even though there's no evidence he can dance.

They aren't just going to let him on to the council after breaking laws with no repercussions.


He already is on the council and there's no one who can replace him. The same angels have always been on the council because they're immortal.

He went down to help, he wasn't just coming down to deliver a message. He wanted to help Sanctuary. Hell was on the move, it was only a matter of time. Thousands of years sounds a little unrealistic for Azmodan to wait that long, and Belial was already rooted in Caldeum, trying to expand his power.


Why did he want to help humanity when they were able to defeat 5 demon lords? They'd already proved they could handle themselves.

Hell wasn't on the move. The demon lords want to destroy heaven, not the sanctuary, so they have no reason to invade the sanctuary. Azmodan only invaded to get the black soulstone and become the prime evil, not because the sanctuary was important.

While Belial had Caldeum his ability to rule was poor and as a result the people revolted against him. Also demons have a bad track record of ruleing over humans, for example Diablo wasn't able to rule Khanduras when he possessed Leoric and Mephisto turned Travincal into an overgrown jungle. I suspect that all Belial would have done was turn Caldeum into a desert wasteland.

It would be more convient to the player if Tyrael was in the camp vs anywhere else. Why is it so clear he doesn't know what hes doing? Maybe hes trying to figure out where Belial is, was attacked by Belial's minions (while the city is under attack) or talking with Adria about their next move.


Tyrael is never shown interacting with anyone, and if you talk to him it's clear he doesn't have a clue where Belial might be or what Belial could be planning. Tyrael simply doesn't do anything in Act 2.

How do you know that? He knew little about the Black Soulstone and was just torturing Adria for information. He would have been very interested in anything that could give him more power or influence. He wouldn't just stop with controling Caldeum, surely he would have had to spread his influence to other cities.


If Belial knew nothing about the black soulstone then how does Azmodan know about it? When you fight Belial he specifically mentions that Azmodan knows what it's for.

What benefits would controlling other cities bring to Belial? Remember that the goals of the demon lords are controlling hell and attacking heaven, not ruling the sanctuary. At best Belial is a diversion so the angels will attack the sanctuary and Azmodan can attack the defenceless heaven.

A iron wolf had a message sent to another iron wolf. I'm pretty sure the message was found on a corpse, so..... I'd say that the message didn't get through. It could have also been a fairly recent message. They knew about Alcarnus, which was the work of cultists, not Belial directly. Belial kicking everyone out does not directly infer that he is Belial, it could have been any number of other things. The child king is corrupt, a puppet, incredibly inexperienced or just a jackass.


Once the Iron Wolves investigated Alcarnus (which contains messages from Belial to Magna), the revolt started, and Belial used his meteors on the city they'd probably figure out that something powerful was in the palace.

He failed to help her escape because he didn't have enough power. He had power, he just didn't have enough because he lost his status of being an Archangel. Intel would also probably have done it. And I disagree, if Tyrael had been in the wrong place at the wrong time, 8+ guards could have prevent Tyrael from helping Leah, espacially if he didn't want to cause unnecessary bloodshed. Tell me what pieces of wisdom could have helped him escape with Leah which power and intel would have failed to do.


Why are you assuming Tyrael didn't have enough power? He never mentions lacking power and wouldn't have volunteered to protect Leah if he was too weak.

Why do you believe intel would have helped Tyrael? Using basic logic, such as stay close to Leah and help her escape is all he needed to do. Letting her get captured by someone who could have been working for Belial shows just how inept he is.

Finally if Tyrael didn't want bloodshed he could have tried to restrain the guard without killing them. Instead he didn't prevent Leah getting captured yet managed to save himself. Hardly a noble action.
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Assuming Tyrael has tactical ability when he never displays any is like assuming Tyrael is a dancer even though there's no evidence he can dance.


Well, as a small amount of evidence that he does have some, he had Izual as a lieutenant, they wouldn't have given him one if he didn't have some tactical knowledge would they? And he has been fighting in an eternal war, I'd assume hes picked some stuff up even if he wasn't ever commanding a large force. I don't think he really needed it during Act 3 either way.

They did show him as a commanding figure in Bastion's Keep. Did you ever see him doing the Tango or wearing dancing shoes?

He already is on the council and there's no one who can replace him. The same angels have always been on the council because they're immortal.


So? They still wouldn't have allowed him to voice his opinions without consequence after breaking their laws.

Why did he want to help humanity when they were able to defeat 5 demon lords? They'd already proved they could handle themselves.

Hell wasn't on the move. The demon lords want to destroy heaven, not the sanctuary, so they have no reason to invade the sanctuary. Azmodan only invaded to get the black soulstone and become the prime evil, not because the sanctuary was important.

While Belial had Caldeum his ability to rule was poor and as a result the people revolted against him. Also demons have a bad track record of ruleing over humans, for example Diablo wasn't able to rule Khanduras when he possessed Leoric and Mephisto turned Travincal into an overgrown jungle. I suspect that all Belial would have done was turn Caldeum into a desert wasteland.


Again, even though humanity was able to defeat 5 of the major evils, they would have fallen pray to Hell if Tyrael was not there to destroy the Worldstone. The corrupted Worldstone would have allowed Hell's armies access to Sanctuary without being limited like in the past, without the Nephalem regaining their power. They needed him last time he was on Sanctuary, who's to say they wouldn't have needed him again? Sanctuary may not have been any of the demons orginal goals, but both factions realized the Nephalem's power. Controling the Nephalem could give either side the upper hand.

That was not Diablo's intent at the time, espacially since he was only controling a few people. He was attempting to free himself, which he suceeded at doing. Belial is an aspect of deception, not destruction for the sake of destruction. He had a purpose in Caldeum beyond just running the place into the ground. He was not attempting to be a beloved leader, he was attempting to break his people. He could have just ordered his guards to kill them after sending the iron wolfs away, but he had other plans.

Tyrael is never shown interacting with anyone, and if you talk to him it's clear he doesn't have a clue where Belial might be or what Belial could be planning. Tyrael simply doesn't do anything in Act 2.


He isn't shown doing anything in Act 2, I'd say theres a difference.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/28/2012 1:15 AM PDT
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If Belial knew nothing about the black soulstone then how does Azmodan know about it? When you fight Belial he specifically mentions that Azmodan knows what it's for.

What benefits would controlling other cities bring to Belial? Remember that the goals of the demon lords are controlling hell and attacking heaven, not ruling the sanctuary. At best Belial is a diversion so the angels will attack the sanctuary and Azmodan can attack the defenceless heaven.


Well if he knew so much about it, then why did he ask her what it was? Azmodan claimed that he could hear the occupants of the Black Soulstone, Belial never claimed that. In addition, they weren't even in the Black Soulstone intill after your confrontation with Kulle. Sanctuary may not have been any of the demons orginal goals, but both factions realized their power. Controling the Nephalem could give either side the upper hand. Belial most likely realized that for whatever reason, the High Heavens are too stupid to make a move because of the pact. It was not a diversion.

Once the Iron Wolves investigated Alcarnus (which contains messages from Belial to Magna), the revolt started, and Belial used his meteors on the city they'd probably figure out that something powerful was in the palace.


K. So they figured out after Belial attacked the city, yay for them?

Why are you assuming Tyrael didn't have enough power? He never mentions lacking power and wouldn't have volunteered to protect Leah if he was too weak.

Why do you believe intel would have helped Tyrael? Using basic logic, such as stay close to Leah and help her escape is all he needed to do. Letting her get captured by someone who could have been working for Belial shows just how inept he is.

Finally if Tyrael didn't want bloodshed he could have tried to restrain the guard without killing them. Instead he didn't prevent Leah getting captured yet managed to save himself.


Well I sincerely doubt becoming a mortal didn't involve a loss of his former power, and I doubt he'd be able to stop numerous guards from capturing Leah. He wouldn't have volunteered to protect Leah if he had a choice and believed he was incompetent, there was no one else. If he had known where guards were coming from, or that they were actually demonic he'd have been able to either avoid them or kill them without regret. Restraining one guard would be easy, but restraining 8 or more would have been alot harder espacially when considering that he was also attempting to protect an innocent.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/28/2012 2:41 AM PDT
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07/28/2012 01:05 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Well, as a small amount of evidence that he does have some, he had Izual as a lieutenant, they wouldn't have given him one if he didn't have some tactical knowledge would they? And he has been fighting in an eternal war, I'd assume hes picked some stuff up even if he wasn't ever commanding a large force. I don't think he really needed it during Act 3 either way.


According the lore Tyrael was never described as a general or as commanding any soldiers. It's also foolish to assume that someone will be able to command an army simply because they've been in a lot of wars.

As Tyrael is the embodiment of justice, it can be assumed that Izual was his lieutenant because he was associated with justice. Just like Azmodan's lieutenant's are associated with the various sins (such as gluttony and lust).

They did show him as a commanding figure in Bastion's Keep. Did you ever see him doing the Tango or wearing dancing shoes?


They said he was the commander but he never demonstrated any tactical abilities, so at best he was a figure head. Also you don't need any specific clothes to dance.

So? They still wouldn't have allowed him to voice his opinions without consequence after breaking their laws.


Unless the majority voted to allow him to voice his opinions. Remember than only Imperius criticised Tyrael, the other 3 did not.

Again, even though humanity was able to defeat 5 of the major evils, they would have fallen pray to Hell if Tyrael was not there to destroy the Worldstone. The corrupted Worldstone would have allowed Hell's armies access to Sanctuary without being limited like in the past, without the Nephalem regaining their power. They needed him last time he was on Sanctuary, who's to say they wouldn't have needed him again? Sanctuary may not have been any of the demons orginal goals, but both factions realized the Nephalem's power. Controling the Nephalem could give either side the upper hand.


Tyrael states very clearly that his motivation for coming to the sanctuary to fight against the last 2 demon lords, even though he witness them defeat 5 demon lords. They clearly didn't need his help.

While both the heavens and hell thought about using the Nephalem the 4 lesser evils grew tired of waiting for the Nephalem to choose good or evil, overthrew the 3 prime evils, banished them to the sanctuary, and hoped that this would distract heaven long enough for them to launch an attack on heaven (Diablo 1 manual).

Once Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto are free they try to reconquer hell and corrupt the worldstone, rather than trying to rule over the Nephalem or convince them to join the armies of hell. So even though the 3 prime evils believe that the sanctuary may be useful they haven't done much to try to gather support and have destroyed large parts of it to achieve their goals.

That was not Diablo's intent at the time, espacially since he was only controling a few people. He was attempting to free himself, which he suceeded at doing. Belial is an aspect of deception, not destruction for the sake of destruction. He had a purpose in Caldeum beyond just running the place into the ground. He was not attempting to be a beloved leader, he was attempting to break his people. He could have just ordered his guards to kill them after sending the iron wolfs away, but he had other plans.


Baal is destruction, Diablo is terror.

What was Belial's purpose for being in Caldium? Why did he want to break the people? You'd think if he was trying to manipulate everyone he's set up a military dictatorship or a new religion rather than try to run the country into the ground.

It can't be the black soulstone because he didn't know what it did, it wasn't located in Caldium, he never leaves Caldium to try and get it, and he never uses his power as emperor to get it (he could have sent his demons even if he wasn't the emperor). By contrast Baal marched his army all the way up Arreat to get the worldstone because he wanted it.

He isn't shown doing anything in Act 2, I'd say theres a difference.


Talk to Tyrael he doesn't have any dialogue about Belial, even though he's mean to be helping you fight against him. He also doesn't help you deal with Zoltan Kulle or help the citizens when Belial attacks them.
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07/28/2012 01:06 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Once the Iron Wolves investigated Alcarnus (which contains messages from Belial to Magna), the revolt started, and Belial used his meteors on the city they'd probably figure out that something powerful was in the palace.


K. So they figured out after Belial attacked the city, yay for them?


Now they know where the demon lord is they call for adventurers to help them. Just like every other city that was attacked by a demon lord.

Well I sincerely doubt becoming a mortal didn't involve a loss of his former power, and I doubt he'd be able to stop numerous guards from capturing Leah. He wouldn't have volunteered to protect Leah if he had a choice and believed he was incompetent, there was no one else. If he had known where guards were coming from, or that they were actually demonic he'd have been able to either avoid them or kill them without regret. Restraining one guard would be easy, but restraining 8 or more would have been alot harder espacially when considering that he was also attempting to protect an innocent.


Tyrael never has any problems when fighting against Azmodan's and Diablo's armies of demons so numerous guards wouldn't be a problem. Even if they were armies of demons disguised as guards.

Tyrael could have prevented the guards capturing Leah but didn't. He didn't even try to rescue her. This is his failure no one else's.

Just because you like Tyrael doesn't make him a good character. Let's look as the problem with him.

1) He sacrifices his immortality rather than try one of the numerous other options available.

2) He sacrifices his immortality to help humanity fight against a threat they've so far been able to beat.

3) Despite sacrificing his immortality to fight against the demon lords Tyrael just stands around in the camp not providing any useful information about the demon lords or helping the player fight against these demon lords.

4) His whole contribution to helping humanity is to tell them that Belial is in Caldium; even though he never felt it necessary to tell anyone that Diablo was in Tristram, Diablo would attack Lut Gholein to get to his brother, Mephisto had corrupted the Zakarum, and that Baal was trying to destroy the worldstone.

5) In act 3 he just tell everyone to do very obvious things such as "signal fire not lit, then light them", "large weapons not being used, then use them", "demons are attacking the Keep, stop them while I don't help in any way despite being nearby", "catapults are attacking the Keep, stop them", "Azmodan has sin hearts, destroy them". But once you get inside Arreat he goes back to doing nothing.

6) The only time Tyrael ever helps the player is when he tags along and helps you against the Siege Breaker and Izual. The rest of the time he could have died after Act 1 and it would be the same.

7) Despite never showing any wisdom he believes that he can replace Malthael.

Personally I feel Tyrael would have worked better as a companion, rather than an NPC. At least then it would be clear why he stands around doing nothing.
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According the lore Tyrael was never described as a general or as commanding any soldiers. It's also foolish to assume that someone will be able to command an army simply because they've been in a lot of wars.

As Tyrael is the embodiment of justice, it can be assumed that Izual was his lieutenant because he was associated with justice. Just like Azmodan's lieutenant's are associated with the various sins (such as gluttony and lust).


Do the Archangels of Fate and Hope have lieutenants? What about when Wisdom was still around, did he have one? Azmodan was a tactician/general, it makes sense for him. I don't assume that he is able to lead an army, but thats not what he was doing. He was assisting in the defense of Bastions Keep. Did he need to have a tactical quality to do that?

They said he was the commander but he never demonstrated any tactical abilities, so at best he was a figure head. Also you don't need any specific clothes to dance.


Did you see him doing the Tango then? But I believe there are shoes for dancing (don't tap dancers wear special shoes most of the time?) and thats all I was talking about.

Unless the majority voted to allow him to voice his opinions. Remember than only Imperius criticised Tyrael, the other 3 did not.


So.... There would be a small chance of a safety net if both the Archangel of Fate and Hope voted to let Tyrael slide with it. On the other hand, I think it is far more likely that one of them wouldn't allow it.

Tyrael states very clearly that his motivation for coming to the sanctuary to fight against the last 2 demon lords, even though he witness them defeat 5 demon lords. They clearly didn't need his help.

While both the heavens and hell thought about using the Nephalem the 4 lesser evils grew tired of waiting for the Nephalem to choose good or evil, overthrew the 3 prime evils, banished them to the sanctuary, and hoped that this would distract heaven long enough for them to launch an attack on heaven (Diablo 1 manual).

Once Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto are free they try to reconquer hell and corrupt the worldstone, rather than trying to rule over the Nephalem or convince them to join the armies of hell. So even though the 3 prime evils believe that the sanctuary may be useful they haven't done much to try to gather support and have destroyed large parts of it to achieve their goals.


They currently commanded the majority of the host of Hell. It wouldn't just be killing both of them, it would be slaughtering an army getting to them. And again, whos to say they wouldn't have needed his help when they did need it last time?

Which Diablo and I believe the other 2 prime evils masterminded to happen. With two of the lesser evils helped him out anyways. Azmodan and Belial without the 3 Prime evils couldn't hope to overtake Heaven without some sort of advantage.

Belial convinced all the cultists to help him out in some way or another. But being upfront about it isn't really his style being the aspect of deception and whatnot. Azmodan is a commander, he'd rather see Sanctuary under his crab legs then to try a diplomatic approach.

Baal is destruction, Diablo is terror.

I realize that.

What was Belial's purpose for being in Caldium? Why did he want to break the people? You'd think if he was trying to manipulate everyone he's set up a military dictatorship or a new religion rather than try to run the country into the ground.

It can't be the black soulstone because he didn't know what it did, it wasn't located in Caldium, he never leaves Caldium to try and get it, and he never uses his power as emperor to get it (he could have sent his demons even if he wasn't the emperor). By contrast Baal marched his army all the way up Arreat to get the worldstone because he wanted it.


His purpose was to control Caldeum and then spread his influence from there. (I assume) A broken foe is easier to control. He also didn't realize where the Black soulstone was. But he did send his forces to find it after he realized that it posed a threat to him.

Talk to Tyrael he doesn't have any dialogue about Belial, even though he's mean to be helping you fight against him. He also doesn't help you deal with Zoltan Kulle or help the citizens when Belial attacks them.


Meh, I don't think that disproves the statement.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/29/2012 5:44 PM PDT
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Now they know where the demon lord is they call for adventurers to help them. Just like every other city that was attacked by a demon lord.


I don't believe there was enough time for that.

Tyrael never has any problems when fighting against Azmodan's and Diablo's armies of demons so numerous guards wouldn't be a problem. Even if they were armies of demons disguised as guards.

Tyrael could have prevented the guards capturing Leah but didn't. He didn't even try to rescue her. This is his failure no one else's.

Just because you like Tyrael doesn't make him a good character. Let's look as the problem with him.


I don't think that Tyrael would have problems dispatching of a dozen or so demonic guards. But would he be able to do that and protect Leah at the same time AND not be killing any of his foes only knocking them out? You did rescuse her pretty quick, perhaps he was attempting to plan a rescue while you were with Belial n stuff? Tyraels charcter is ok, not great. I just don't think hes an idiot. (also he looked pretty freakin awesome when he was an Angel)

1) He sacrifices his immortality rather than try one of the numerous other options available.

Numerous? I dont think so. Either way it would have been risky to do anything else, instead of becoming mortal.

2) He sacrifices his immortality to help humanity fight against a threat they've so far been able to beat.

With his help.

3) Despite sacrificing his immortality to fight against the demon lords Tyrael just stands around in the camp not providing any useful information about the demon lords or helping the player fight against these demon lords.

Or is he? I stand by my arguement that he is still doing something while hes in camp.

4) His whole contribution to helping humanity is to tell them that Belial is in Caldium; even though he never felt it necessary to tell anyone that Diablo was in Tristram, Diablo would attack Lut Gholein to get to his brother, Mephisto had corrupted the Zakarum, and that Baal was trying to destroy the worldstone.

For Tristram, he didn't realize Diablo was getting loose yet. Tyrael was rushing over to stop Diablo from freeing his brother. I don't know if he knew about Mephisto's corruption of the Zakarum yet, he may have been a bit busy. He may have not know Baal's objective yet, but if he did he he talked about it after you defeated Diablo which took priority at the time. He was helping you out along the way as well, not just telling you where.

5) In act 3 he just tell everyone to do very obvious things such as "signal fire not lit, then light them", "large weapons not being used, then use them", "demons are attacking the Keep, stop them while I don't help in any way despite being nearby", "catapults are attacking the Keep, stop them", "Azmodan has sin hearts, destroy them". But once you get inside Arreat he goes back to doing nothing.

So what if they are obvious or not? And who says hes doing nothing while hes back in Bastion's Keep?

6) The only time Tyrael ever helps the player is when he tags along and helps you against the Siege Breaker and Izual. The rest of the time he could have died after Act 1 and it would be the same.

That is only if we assume hes doing nothing at all behind the scenes, which I would not do. But for the purpose of the story, yes it would essentially be the same, because they wouldn't be accounting for his actions. Which to be technical, they haven't accounted for his actions yet.

7) Despite never showing any wisdom he believes that he can replace Malthael.

He shows a few bits and pieces of wisdom, but I do see what people are talking about here. I do not believe he is as stupid as some people are making him out to be though. I don't particularly understand where Blizzard is going with it, but it might make for an interesting story in the expansion.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/29/2012 5:46 PM PDT
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07/10/2012 12:54 PMPosted by wongkeiying
Tyrael: It just goes to show you, the more you fight evil the more it corrupts you.

if you meant tyrael's quote after defeating belial then you seriously missed the very important word "CAN".

i believe he said " the more it CAN corrupt your soul." tyrael implies an increase in possibility, not a definite consequence. if he said "the more it WILL corrupt your soul." then your whole post would make sense.
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Tyrael: It just goes to show you, the more you fight evil the more it corrupts you.

if you meant tyrael's quote after defeating belial then you seriously missed the very important word "CAN".

i believe he said " the more it CAN corrupt your soul." tyrael implies an increase in possibility, not a definite consequence. if he said "the more it WILL corrupt your soul." then your whole post would make sense.


Here is a quotation of an earlier post of mine. I CAN totally understand why you missed it.

"Kulle was once a tireless enemy of Hell. From his life, let us learn—the longer we fight evil, the more it can corrupt our hearts."

Tyrael says evil "can corrupt", not "will corrupt". One can fight evil indefinitely and never succumb to that corruption... it's all a matter of willpower.

Kulle felt empty and bitter. His desire for power grew into an obsession and he had no compunctions about using the souls of demons to strengthen himself. A more principled hero wouldn't give in to the same sort of temptations.


In the English language the word “Can” means ‘ability’ or ‘able.’
I can type (ability), I can’t spell (ability). Can you tell the difference between typos and spelling errors? (ability)
You can (ability) say such things as; “It can (possibility) rain today.” and everyone would know what you mean, however, everyone would also know that what you said is grammatically incorrect.

Thus … <…the more it can corrupt …> doesn’t mean possibility, chance, or could, it means the more that it is ABLE to corrupt.
“The more we fight evil, the more it is able to corrupt us”
Emphasis on the word “Can” doesn’t change the meaning (or meaninglessness) of the statement.

The immediate consequences of Tyrael’s statement are:
1) There is no such thing as ‘fighting evil’ there are only various stages of corruption.
1a) It is therefore pointless to “fight evil” or to interpret your actions as ‘fighting evil.’ Since the more you fight evil, the more you enable evil to corrupt you.
2) Assuming the existence of the High Heavens and their eternal war with evil, the High Heavens will ultimately lose and fall to corruption.

If Tyrael is attempting to generalize about the situation and draw some insight or wisdom, his generalization is immediately refuted by the existence and death of Deckard Cain.

If Tyrael’s statement were true, then Evil, becoming evil, would be the same as Death, an eventuality that no one escapes.

There’s only three things in this world you have to do. Pay Taxes. Die. And become corrupted by Evil. ???
Edited by wongkeiying#1630 on 8/1/2012 7:23 AM PDT
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07/29/2012 12:00 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Do the Archangels of Fate and Hope have lieutenants? What about when Wisdom was still around, did he have one? Azmodan was a tactician/general, it makes sense for him. I don't assume that he is able to lead an army, but thats not what he was doing. He was assisting in the defense of Bastions Keep. Did he need to have a tactical quality to do that?


How was Tyrael assisting them? Most of the time he just stood around doing nothing.

Seriously he was never shown leading them or making a strategy to fight against the demons beyond the obvious.

So.... There would be a small chance of a safety net if both the Archangel of Fate and Hope voted to let Tyrael slide with it. On the other hand, I think it is far more likely that one of them wouldn't allow it.


Why? When did either of them object to what Tyrael was doing? They didn't object to the nephlem being in heaven and helping.

They currently commanded the majority of the host of Hell. It wouldn't just be killing both of them, it would be slaughtering an army getting to them. And again, whos to say they wouldn't have needed his help when they did need it last time?


You know who else had an army of hell protecting them, every other demon lord. Don't forget that Mephisto had the all the Zakarum he corrupted, Diablo was in hell and literally surrounded by the entire army of hell, and Baal brought as much of the army as he could a Arreat. Tyrael had observed time and time again that humanity was capable of fighting the armies of hell.

Which Diablo and I believe the other 2 prime evils masterminded to happen. With two of the lesser evils helped him out anyways. Azmodan and Belial without the 3 Prime evils couldn't hope to overtake Heaven without some sort of advantage.

Belial convinced all the cultists to help him out in some way or another. But being upfront about it isn't really his style being the aspect of deception and whatnot. Azmodan is a commander, he'd rather see Sanctuary under his crab legs then to try a diplomatic approach.


It's clear that Azmodan and Belial weren't working with Diablo and didn't know that Leah had part of Diablo inside of her. They never mention working with Diablo or that they need Leah to resurrect him.

Also Azmodan wasn't interested in the Sanctuary, he wanted the black soulstone so he could become the prime evil.

His purpose was to control Caldeum and then spread his influence from there. (I assume) A broken foe is easier to control. He also didn't realize where the Black soulstone was. But he did send his forces to find it after he realized that it posed a threat to him.


Seriously the demon lords aren't Saturday morning cartoon villains who want to rule the world. The Sanctuary isn't their enemy and they don't have any reason to rule it. Their goal is ruling hell and the destruction of heaven.

So while it makes sense for Belial to come to the Sanctuary to find the black soulstone it doesn't make any sense for him to become emperor, then not use any of the empire's resources to find the black soulstone.
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07/29/2012 12:44 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I don't think that Tyrael would have problems dispatching of a dozen or so demonic guards. But would he be able to do that and protect Leah at the same time AND not be killing any of his foes only knocking them out?

He just needed to delay them long enough for Leah to escape. Yet he couldn't do that.

You did rescuse her pretty quick, perhaps he was attempting to plan a rescue while you were with Belial n stuff? Tyraels charcter is ok, not great. I just don't think hes an idiot. (also he looked pretty freakin awesome when he was an Angel)


You're only able to rescue Leah because the Iron Wolves help you and because Belial doesn't have her killed.

Also looking cool doesn't make Tyrael a good character.

2) He sacrifices his immortality to help humanity fight against a threat they've so far been able to beat.

With his help.


The player was able to beat Andarial, Duriel, Mephisto, and Baal without any help. The only help he provided against Diablo was reviving your mercenaries. Though he did destroy the corrupted worldstone.

So humanity hasn't ever needed his help in battle against the demon lords or the armies of hell. The player is also capable of beating Belial and Azmodan with his help.

3) Despite sacrificing his immortality to fight against the demon lords Tyrael just stands around in the camp not providing any useful information about the demon lords or helping the player fight against these demon lords.

Or is he? I stand by my arguement that he is still doing something while hes in camp.


Does Tyrael mention that he's doing anything? No he doesn't.

Does anyone else mention Tyrael doing anything? No they don't.

Face it Tyrael just stands around doing nothing.

For Tristram, he didn't realize Diablo was getting loose yet. Tyrael was rushing over to stop Diablo from freeing his brother. I don't know if he knew about Mephisto's corruption of the Zakarum yet, he may have been a bit busy. He may have not know Baal's objective yet, but if he did he he talked about it after you defeated Diablo which took priority at the time. He was helping you out along the way as well, not just telling you where.


Tyrael didn't notice that the temple and the surrounding area where Mephisto's soulstone was kept had become overgrown with a jungle and was full of demons. That's a pretty huge thing to miss. Especially since he knew that Baal and Diablo were free, and the location of all 3 soulstones.

In D2 act 4 after you defeat Diablo Tyrael even tells you that Baal is heading towards mount Arreat for the Worldstone, yet despite the Worldstone's importance to the Sanctuary he doesn't feel that he should do anything. Yet in D3 all of a sudden Tyrael decides that the world needs his help despite not helping during the previous crisis.

That is only if we assume hes doing nothing at all behind the scenes, which I would not do. But for the purpose of the story, yes it would essentially be the same, because they wouldn't be accounting for his actions. Which to be technical, they haven't accounted for his actions yet.


Tyrael never mentions doing anything, no one else mentions Tyrael doing anything. He's clearly not doing anything. Face it Tyrael is useless.

He shows a few bits and pieces of wisdom, but I do see what people are talking about here. I do not believe he is as stupid as some people are making him out to be though. I don't particularly understand where Blizzard is going with it, but it might make for an interesting story in the expansion.

Please post the top 5 pieces of wisdom from Tyrael and why you think they show he's wise. I'm interested to see what Wisdom Tyrael displays.

Also just because Tyrael may be better in the expansion doesn't excuse him being useless in D3.
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CAN means alot more than that in english.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/can
c —used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive> <those things can happen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may

Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence,


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/can
a. Used to indicate possibility or probability: I wonder if my long lost neighbor can still be alive. Such things can and do happen.
c. Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances: They can hardly have intended to do that.
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He just needed to delay them long enough for Leah to escape. Yet he couldn't do that.


And they just needed to distract Tyrael long enough to make off with Leah, and possibly a situation which favored them. Say Tyrael split from leah by a good 4-7 feet, element of surprise and a surround. They wouldn't have been able to overpower Tyrael, but I don't see it as an impossiblity for them to be able to capture Leah.

You're only able to rescue Leah because the Iron Wolves help you and because Belial doesn't have her killed.

Also looking cool doesn't make Tyrael a good character.


Well, Belial was an idiot who practically gave her to you, gift wrapped. She helped us get inside with her authority, but I'm not really sure that we needed her to rescue Leah, Leah's power decimated half the guards a few seconds into the fight.

Edit: NVM redid the section, he said we couldnt hope to rescue Leah without rescuing the Emperor first.

It was a sidenote.

The player was able to beat Andarial, Duriel, Mephisto, and Baal without any help. The only help he provided against Diablo was reviving your mercenaries. Though he did destroy the corrupted worldstone.

So humanity hasn't ever needed his help in battle against the demon lords or the armies of hell. The player is also capable of beating Belial and Azmodan with his help.


K. I realize that humanity didn't need all that much help last time, but they still needed him.

Does Tyrael mention that he's doing anything? No he doesn't. Does anyone else mention Tyrael doing anything? No they don't. Face it Tyrael just stands around doing nothing.


Again, just because they never mention his actions in game, isn't enough of a reason for me to think that he does nothing during acts 2 and 3.

Tyrael didn't notice that the temple and the surrounding area where Mephisto's soulstone was kept had become overgrown with a jungle and was full of demons. That's a pretty huge thing to miss. Especially since he knew that Baal and Diablo were free, and the location of all 3 soulstones.

In D2 act 4 after you defeat Diablo Tyrael even tells you that Baal is heading towards mount Arreat for the Worldstone, yet despite the Worldstone's importance to the Sanctuary he doesn't feel that he should do anything. Yet in D3 all of a sudden Tyrael decides that the world needs his help despite not helping during the previous crisis.


I don't recall ever hearing what Tyrael was doing during act 3, and I was talking about before D1 and D2. But he obviously found that something was more important at that current point in time, perhaps he was keeping apperances up in Heaven as he was just imprisioned for a peroid of time. He was most likely not able to help due to his involvement in the politics of the High Heavens.

Tyrael never mentions doing anything, no one else mentions Tyrael doing anything. He's clearly not doing anything. Face it Tyrael is useless.


Hes Tyrael, the former Archangel of justice, hes not useless and hes certainly doing what is needed of him whenever he can.

How was Tyrael assisting them? Most of the time he just stood around doing nothing. Seriously he was never shown leading them or making a strategy to fight against the demons beyond the obvious


This is just more of the same. You assume nothing happens that we dont see, I dont assume that nothing happens we dont see. In the game it is claimed that he has great leadership qualities.

Why? When did either of them object to what Tyrael was doing? They didn't object to the nephlem being in heaven and helping.


They didn't object to the Nephalem being in Heaven and helping because the Arch Angel of Hope and Fate both realized that Nephalem were their only chance of survival. In addition, they wouldn't have objected to Nephalem being in Heaven in their time of need, only interference with the Nephalem in Sanctuary. Tyrael would have been breaking the law. Angels are displayed as beings of order. It's highly likely they wouldn't have allowed Tyrael to break the law and go unpunished for his actions. To be honest, Tyrael shouldn't have been allowed back into Heaven right after the conflict was over.

You know who else had an army of hell protecting them, every other demon lord. Don't forget that Mephisto had the all the Zakarum he corrupted, Diablo was in hell and literally surrounded by the entire army of hell, and Baal brought as much of the army as he could a Arreat.


An army? Naw, the others (short of Baal* and MAYBE Diablo) only had what they could wrangle up at the time. I see it as likely that Diablo didn't have an army ready to fend you off as soon as you followed him into Hell, Azmodan and Belial likely ceased control as much of it as possible before he renetered hell. I do not know how large Baal's army was, but it was the first "real army" you had to fight.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 8/13/2012 1:59 PM PDT
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It's clear that Azmodan and Belial weren't working with Diablo and didn't know that Leah had part of Diablo inside of her. They never mention working with Diablo or that they need Leah to resurrect him.

Also Azmodan wasn't interested in the Sanctuary, he wanted the black soulstone so he could become the prime evil.


I was talking about Duriel and Andariel. Fair point, but I'd say it's fairly likely that he still wanted to control Sanctuary to use it against the High Heavens and shifted his attention to the Black Soulstone after the five souls were absorbed into it.

Seriously the demon lords aren't Saturday morning cartoon villains who want to rule the world. The Sanctuary isn't their enemy and they don't have any reason to rule it. Their goal is ruling hell and the destruction of heaven.

So while it makes sense for Belial to come to the Sanctuary to find the black soulstone it doesn't make any sense for him to become emperor, then not use any of the empire's resources to find the black soulstone


Ah.... So their only goal is to destroy the High Heavens because of a rivalary? Naw, they want to assert their power over any they can, including eachother. Their main goal is the destruction of the High Heavens and all the Angels in them, but they do see Sanctuary as an advantage in their war. And if they do manage to destroy the High Heavens, they will most certainly turn their eye to Sanctuary and kill, control or destroy all who live there.

I doubt Belial knew of the Black Soulstone before coming to Sanctuary, unless Izual somehow knew about it then told him and Azmodan about it. I'm under the belief that he only recently learned of the Black Soulstone as you arrive in Caldeum. If not, who's to say he wasn't using some of his resources to find it? Would he really make it a priority if he didn't even know what the Black Soulstone was intill some point after he captured Adria?

Please post the top 5 pieces of wisdom from Tyrael and why you think they show he's wise. I'm interested to see what Wisdom Tyrael displays.


I don't know if I'd be able to find 5 pieces of wisdom from Tyrael, it is a short game afterall, (for a single playthrough of normal) espacially considering he wasnt really in act one intill the end.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 8/2/2012 12:03 AM PDT
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CAN means alot more than that in english.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/can
c —used to indicate possibility <do you think he can still be alive> <those things can happen> ; sometimes used interchangeably with may

Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence,


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/can
a. Used to indicate possibility or probability: I wonder if my long lost neighbor can still be alive. Such things can and do happen.
c. Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances: They can hardly have intended to do that.

First, you had to ignore the etymology of the word “CAN.” You also had to ignore the primary meanings of the word “CAN”; 1) Know How 2) Able 3) Ability.

You also ignored the fact that the Merriam-Webster.com definition of the word CAN had to be clarified, explained, in a section entitled “USAGE DISCUSSION.”

We all know that <…Can I have more loot please…> is grammatically incorrect. And the correct phrase would be; <…May I have more loot, please…> However because no one uses the correct phrasing, common USAGE has led to the word “CAN” being accepted and understood in such phrases as “Can I have …”

In my discussion, I acknowledge that the word CAN is and can be used in various ways that leave the actual meaning of the word far behind.
<<“…You can (ability) say such things as; “It can (possibility) rain today.” and everyone would know what you mean, however, everyone would also know that what you said is grammatically incorrect …”>>
You can say: Can I have more loot, please? Everyone understands what you mean, and everyone understands that it is grammatically incorrect.

In the English language the word “Can” means ‘ability’ or ‘able.’

I should have set this statement apart from the rest of my post. I should have put it in bold, and italics, and underlined it. Thus ….
Emphasis on the word “Can” doesn’t change the meaning (or meaninglessness) of the statement.

even if we grant that the word “CAN” in the statement made by Tyrael means “possibility or might or could” that still doesn’t change the meaning (or meaninglessness) of the statement.
Because the statement sets up a condition or a conditional, and that conditional does not hinge on the word CAN.

"Kulle was once a tireless enemy of Hell. From his life, let us learn—the longer we fight evil, the more it can corrupt our hearts."

Allow me to underline, bold and italicize the conditions.
... the longer we fight evil the more it can corrupt our hearts.

The Longer, The More.
The Longer you run the More tired you become.
Oh. Wait.
The LONGER you run the MORE tired you CAN become.

Is becoming Tired a possibility that you can escape? No. Because the Longer the More.

The ability, the possibility of being corrupted by evil, of evil corrupting our hearts is increased, becomes greater, is MORE, the longer we fight. The ability, the possibility of being corrupted by Evil is in direct proportion to the duration of fighting evil. The Longer, the More.

The longer you fight evil the GREATER the ability of evil to corrupt you. Lets assume the word can means ‘possibility.’ The longer you fight evil the GREATER the Chance evil will corrupt you.

The chances of being corrupted by evil would therefore be greatest in an or in any ETERNAL war/fight against evil. There’s no longer duration than eternity.

If the possibility of evil to corrupt you INCREASES in direct proportion to the amount of resistance you expend, your corruption is assured.
Thus ….
Emphasis on the word “Can” doesn’t change the meaning (or meaninglessness) of the statement.
Edited by wongkeiying#1630 on 8/2/2012 11:36 AM PDT
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make a comparison of tyrael in d2 and in d3
its not the same character, completely different, as in it was remade from scratch (except the angel outfit).
idk maybe tearing his wings caused brain damage.
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has anyone checked if diablo angels get tired from running?

putting aside the usage of CAN. i disagree that the increase of possibility would eventually lead to its assurance. just like how resting can prevent you from getting tired (run 10 meters, break 5 mins, repeat). fighting evil increases the possibility, but there are other factors that should naturally decrease the possibility too. and from tyrael's comment about how imperius just hides in heaven, we know that angels didnt actively attack evil all the time, which is their rest. though its called the eternal conflict, they dont even fight each other everyday.
Edited by Forthwind on 8/2/2012 5:02 PM PDT
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has anyone checked if diablo angels get tired from running?

putting aside the usage of CAN. i disagree that the increase of possibility would eventually lead to its assurance. just like how resting can prevent you from getting tired (run 10 meters, break 5 mins, repeat). fighting evil increases the possibility, but there are other factors that should naturally decrease the possibility too. and from tyrael's comment about how imperius just hides in heaven, we know that angels didnt actively attack evil all the time, which is their rest. though its called the eternal conflict, they dont even fight each other everyday.

Trying to have your cake and eat it too?

How could Tyrael have come to such a conclusion when everything that he knows speaks against it? Tyrael is an angel, just as angels don’t become tired from running, angels don’t become corrupted from evil simply from fighting evil, they don’t become corrupted by evil simply from fighting evil for long durations, even eternity. That’s the point that I was trying to make in the OP.

At one point, iirc, Tyrael says something like: You mortals face darkness everyday, and yet you still find the courage to go on fighting. Not the most brilliant of statements, yet this also demonstrates that everything Tyrael knows speaks against his statement about being corrupted by evil the longer you fight evil.

Just as you point out there are “Other factors involved” in determining Who, When, Why and How individuals are corrupted by evil. However, it is Tyrael that fails to take these “other factors” into account. It is Tyrael that calls the duration of fighting evil the cause of being corrupted by evil.

Courage. Belief in Yourself. Belief in a higher power. Faith. There are numerous “other factors” that would enable an individual, like Deckard Cain, to go on fighting evil indefinitely without ever succumbing to corruption by evil. It is Tyrael that fails to take those other factors into account.
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08/01/2012 08:30 PMPosted by AscendedOne
K. I realize that humanity didn't need all that much help last time, but they still needed him.


What exactly does humanity need Tyrael for? They can defeat the demon lords so they don't need Tyrael to do that and there's no longer a worldstone so they don't need him to destroy it.

Again, just because they never mention his actions in game, isn't enough of a reason for me to think that he does nothing during acts 2 and 3.


All the evidence clearly shows Tyrael isn't doing anything. He doesn't help you rescue Leah, he doesn't help you find the body parts of Zoltan Kulle, he doesn't help you get the black soulstone, he doesn't try to figure out who Belial is, he doesn't help the people when Belial attacks them, he doesn't fight Belial, he doesn't help light the signal fires, he doesn't help raise the catapults, he doesn't help fight against the demons that invade the keep, he doesn't help fight against Ghom, he doesn't help destroy the siege weapons, he doesn't help in the fight against the sin hearts, he doesn't help you fight Cydaea, and he doesn't help you fight Azmodan.

If Tyrael is doing something it isn't related to fighting against the demon lords, even though his only reason for becoming a mortal was to fight against the demon lords.

I don't recall ever hearing what Tyrael was doing during act 3, and I was talking about before D1 and D2. But he obviously found that something was more important at that current point in time, perhaps he was keeping apperances up in Heaven as he was just imprisioned for a peroid of time. He was most likely not able to help due to his involvement in the politics of the High Heavens.


In D1 Tyrael never appears. In D2 Tyrael is present but never tries to help you, it's more like you just meet him a few times on your journey.

If D3 tyrael was like D2 Tyrael you would meet him after act 1 and learn Belial was in Caldium, he would be absent in act 2, in act 3 he would give you some quests to kill Azmodan and his lieutenants but otherwise do nothing, and in act 4 he wouldn't appear until after you killed Diablo.

Hes Tyrael, the former Archangel of justice, hes not useless and hes certainly doing what is needed of him whenever he can.


What's needed of him is to fight the demons and demon lords (you know the thing he became mortal in order to do), not stand around in the camp doing nothing.

This is just more of the same. You assume nothing happens that we dont see, I dont assume that nothing happens we dont see. In the game it is claimed that he has great leadership qualities.


Who claims Tyrael has great leadership qualities? But serious if Tyrael is never shown doing anything it's safe to assume he's not doing anything. Especially not anything plot related.
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