Diablo® III

The Wisdom of Tyrael

They didn't object to the Nephalem being in Heaven and helping because the Arch Angel of Hope and Fate both realized that Nephalem were their only chance of survival. In addition, they wouldn't have objected to Nephalem being in Heaven in their time of need, only interference with the Nephalem in Sanctuary. Tyrael would have been breaking the law. Angels are displayed as beings of order. It's highly likely they wouldn't have allowed Tyrael to break the law and go unpunished for his actions. To be honest, Tyrael shouldn't have been allowed back into Heaven right after the conflict was over.


This law you're referring to is an agreement between heaven and hell regarding the sanctuary, an agreement that hell has clearly broken. I doubt Auriel and Itherael will object to Tyrael trying to save humanity.

An army? Naw, the others (short of Belial and MAYBE Diablo) only had what they could wrangle up at the time. I see it as likely that Diablo didn't have an army ready to fend you off as soon as you followed him into Hell, Azmodan and Belial likely ceased control as much of it as possible before he renetered hell. I do not know how large Baal's army was, but it was the first "real army" you had to fight.


Mephisto had control of a military order made up of soldiers and mages, along with a host of demons. He had a major army.

In the D2 expansion cinematics they show just how large Baal's army is. Basically it's large enough to cover mount Arreat and defeat all the barbarians guarding it.

08/01/2012 08:51 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Ah.... So their only goal is to destroy the High Heavens because of a rivalary? Naw, they want to assert their power over any they can, including eachother. Their main goal is the destruction of the High Heavens and all the Angels in them, but they do see Sanctuary as an advantage in their war. And if they do manage to destroy the High Heavens, they will most certainly turn their eye to Sanctuary and kill, control or destroy all who live there.


Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal were the ones interested in the Sanctuary. Belial and Azmodan specifically overthrew the prime evils because they lost interest in the Sanctuary.

I doubt Belial knew of the Black Soulstone before coming to Sanctuary, unless Izual somehow knew about it then told him and Azmodan about it. I'm under the belief that he only recently learned of the Black Soulstone as you arrive in Caldeum. If not, who's to say he wasn't using some of his resources to find it? Would he really make it a priority if he didn't even know what the Black Soulstone was intill some point after he captured Adria?


Then we have the problem why was Belial in Caldium. Also why was he in the Sanctuary?

I don't know if I'd be able to find 5 pieces of wisdom from Tyrael, it is a short game afterall, (for a single playthrough of normal) espacially considering he wasnt really in act one intill the end.


So no wisdom from Tyrael then.

make a comparison of tyrael in d2 and in d3
its not the same character, completely different, as in it was remade from scratch (except the angel outfit).
idk maybe tearing his wings caused brain damage.


I agree. In D2 Tyrael is doing his own thing and just happens to meet the player along the way. He's never shown trying to help the player and barely does anything to help humanity (he tries to stop Diablo freeing Baal and destroys the worldstone but that's it). He doesn't ever try to stop Andarial, Duriel, Mephisto, Diablo, or Baal from destroying the Sanctuary, or try to help the player fight against them.

In D3 he suddenly forgets that humanity beat 5 demon lords and claims that he has to help them defeat the last 2; then stands around doing nothing for most of the game. Maybe the wordlstone exploding caused brain damage.
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What exactly does humanity need Tyrael for? They can defeat the demon lords so they don't need Tyrael to do that and there's no longer a worldstone so they don't need him to destroy it.


Well, they needed to know that Hell was about to attack. Other then that, anything Blizz wants Tyrael to be needed for. They needed him last time, that may be enough of reason for him to come help this time as well.

All the evidence clearly shows Tyrael isn't doing anything. He doesn't help you rescue Leah, he doesn't help you find the body parts of Zoltan Kulle, he doesn't help you get the black soulstone, he doesn't try to figure out who Belial is, he doesn't help the people when Belial attacks them, he doesn't fight Belial, he doesn't help light the signal fires, he doesn't help raise the catapults, he doesn't help fight against the demons that invade the keep, he doesn't help fight against Ghom, he doesn't help destroy the siege weapons, he doesn't help in the fight against the sin hearts, he doesn't help you fight Cydaea, and he doesn't help you fight Azmodan.


Thats not evidence, thats just stuff he didn't do. Theres a million things he didn't do at certain times and there always will be stuff he didn't do. Just because he didn't do some things doesn't mean he didn't do anything at all.

In D1 Tyrael never appears. In D2 Tyrael is present but never tries to help you, it's more like you just meet him a few times on your journey.

If D3 tyrael was like D2 Tyrael you would meet him after act 1 and learn Belial was in Caldium, he would be absent in act 2, in act 3 he would give you some quests to kill Azmodan and his lieutenants but otherwise do nothing, and in act 4 he wouldn't appear until after you killed Diablo.


I don't see your point here. Yes if he was as absent in d3 as he was in d2 it would be something like that, but whats your point?

Who claims Tyrael has great leadership qualities? But serious if Tyrael is never shown doing anything it's safe to assume he's not doing anything. Especially not anything plot related.


I don't remember if theres any one else who claims it, but your charcter for one. I will not assume hes never doing anything since he is down here, after giving him his power and all that.

This law you're referring to is an agreement between heaven and hell regarding the sanctuary, an agreement that hell has clearly broken. I doubt Auriel and Itherael will object to Tyrael trying to save humanity.


I realize it has been broken, but for some stupid reason the Angels are still standing by it. It would not be seen as trying to save humanity, but unnessiary interference and breaking the law. Tyrael would most likely be punished.

Mephisto had control of a military order made up of soldiers and mages, along with a host of demons. He had a major army.


Where is this mentioned? He controled the Zakarum but I don't think he had enough numbers for it to be considered an "army".

Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal were the ones interested in the Sanctuary. Belial and Azmodan specifically overthrew the prime evils because they lost interest in the Sanctuary.

Then we have the problem why was Belial in Caldium. Also why was he in the Sanctuary?


Well, they regained interest then. Espacially with the Worldstone destroyed. Caldeum is a major city, a good place to start influencing the world.

So no wisdom from Tyrael then.


I haven't gotten around to it.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 8/16/2012 11:59 PM PDT
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08/05/2012 03:10 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Well, they needed to know that Hell was about to attack. Other then that, anything Blizz wants Tyrael to be needed for. They needed him last time, that may be enough of reason for him to come help this time as well.


They need Tyrael last two times to provide soultstones and to destroy the worldstone. As the demon lords can corrupt soulstones and the worldstone no longer exists Tyrael isn't needed for either of these. So he has no reason to show up.

I suspect Blizzard just added him because they thought he looked cool and fanboys would enjoy it.

Thats not evidence, thats just stuff he didn't do. Theres a million things he didn't do at certain times and there always will be stuff he didn't do. Just because he didn't do some things doesn't mean he didn't do anything at all.


If Tyrael isn't doing anything to advance the plot then whatever he's doing is useless. I have shown conclusively that Tyrael was completely useless in the fight against the demon lords, you have constantly failed to provide any evidence that Tyrael contributed anything useful.

Face it Adria was more useful than Tyrael because she was relevant to the plot in acts 2 and 3.

I don't see your point here. Yes if he was as absent in d3 as he was in d2 it would be something like that, but whats your point?


I was trying to explain how Tyrael was different in D2 and D3 since you've clearly never played the former. Judging by your posts the only thing you know about this series is D3.

I don't remember everyone who claims it, but your charcter for one. I will not assume hes never doing anything since he is down here, after giving him his power and all that.


Your character never claims Tyrael is useful. The player is the useful one as they're trying to defeat the demon lords, unlike Tyrael who just stands around waiting for someone to defeat the demon lords he said he was going to fight against.

I realize it has been broken, but for some stupid reason the Angels are still standing by it. It would not be seen as trying to save humanity, but unnessiary interference and breaking the law. Tyrael would most likely be punished.


Only Imperius is ever shown standing by this law, so it's unlikely that Tyrael would be punished.

Where is this mentioned? He controled the Zakarum but I don't think he had enough numbers for it to be considered an "army".


In D2 the Zakarum are the military order that the Paladin belongs. If you ever play D2 you'll see that there are enough mages and soldiers for it to be considered an army. Also Mephisto's army destroyed much of Kehjistan and attacked the capital Kurast.

Well, they regained interest then. Espacially with the Worldstone destroyed. Caldeum is a major city, a good place to start influencing the world.


As I already stated Belial and Azmodan aren't villains from a children's cartoon trying to rule the world. They had little interest in the Sanctuary to begin with and the destruction of the Worldstone isn't going to change this. Their goal is the destruction of heaven, not ruling the sanctuary.

As the only thing Belial did in Caldeum was sacrifice as many people as possible, mismanage the city until it revolted, and launched a meteor strike against Caldeum due to the revolt it's clear that Belial wasn't interested in ruling Caldeum.
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They need Tyrael last two times to provide soultstones and to destroy the worldstone. As the demon lords can corrupt soulstones and the worldstone no longer exists Tyrael isn't needed for either of these. So he has no reason to show up.

I suspect Blizzard just added him because they thought he looked cool and fanboys would enjoy it.


Just because those were 2 of the few things he was needed for last time, doesn't mean that he wouldn't be needed in a different way this time. Are you sure that in the lore that Tyrael did NOTHING else of any use at all?

That logic wouldn't make sense because the only time he took the form of an Archangel was in one cutscene. Which is probably why you mentioned it, you believe their logic is flawed.

If Tyrael isn't doing anything to advance the plot then whatever he's doing is useless. I have shown conclusively that Tyrael was completely useless in the fight against the demon lords, you have constantly failed to provide any evidence that Tyrael contributed anything useful.

Face it Adria was more useful than Tyrael because she was relevant to the plot in acts 2 and 3.


Just because hes not doing anything in the spotlight doesn't mean that blizzard wont have him doing anything behind the scenes. You have not proved that Tyrael has been worthless, only that they haven't really shown many actions of his during D3.

I was trying to explain how Tyrael was different in D2 and D3 since you've clearly never played the former. Judging by your posts the only thing you know about this series is D3.


Tyraels interaction with D2's story is different then his interaction with D3's story, but that doesn't mean hes different. I have forgotten a good portion of D2, I wasn't espacially wild about the game.

Your character never claims Tyrael is useful. The player is the useful one as they're trying to defeat the demon lords, unlike Tyrael who just stands around waiting for someone to defeat the demon lords he said he was going to fight against.


The character never says "Tyrael is useful", the character does however mention that he is a good leader. Play act 3 again if your so sure I'm wrong here.

Only Imperius is ever shown standing by this law, so it's unlikely that Tyrael would be punished.


Do you not think that the other two on the council have any respect for the law? If they have even an ounce of respect for the laws that THEY made, there would be a damned good chance that Tyrael would be imprisoned or punished.

In D2 the Zakarum are the military order that the Paladin belongs. If you ever play D2 you'll see that there are enough mages and soldiers for it to be considered an army. Also Mephisto's army destroyed much of Kehjistan and attacked the capital Kurast.


I've never seen anything suggesting that Mephisto's forces were anywhere near the size of army. At the start of act 3, they say forces which is incredibly vague considering numbers. I repeat, where is it mentioned that Mephisto's forces are anywhere near the size of an army? Where is their "army" given a number?

As I already stated Belial and Azmodan aren't villains from a children's cartoon trying to rule the world. They had little interest in the Sanctuary to begin with and the destruction of the Worldstone isn't going to change this. Their goal is the destruction of heaven, not ruling the sanctuary.

As the only thing Belial did in Caldeum was sacrifice as many people as possible, mismanage the city until it revolted, and launched a meteor strike against Caldeum due to the revolt it's clear that Belial wasn't interested in ruling Caldeum.


I never said that they were. They merely acknowledge the power of the Nephalem, and desire it in some way shape or form. In what way does that automaticly mean a mustache twirling villian? And as I said before, they can't possibly hope to conquer Heaven without an advantage as they are missing the other 5 evils.

Belial may have done those things in reaction to your approach to Caldeum, he didn't just arrive as you did. As far as his mismangement of the city goes, if he had killed you instead of vise versa, it would have worked out fine for him. The citizens wouldn't have been able to oppose his rule, nor is it likely that they would have been able to run. Hell, he may have even been able to get his hands on the Black Soulstone and become the Prime Evil, short of Azmodan.
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Tyrael: It just goes to show you, the more you fight evil the more it corrupts you.

Passerby: Pardon me, sir, I wasn’t eavesdropping but I couldn’t help but overhear your last statement. If you don’t mind, would you tell me what you mean?

Tyrael: What do you mean, tell you what I mean?

Passerby: Well, are you saying that the High Heavens will ultimately lose against evil?

Tyrael: What?! Where did you get that from? I didn’t say anything like that!

Passerby: Well, I believe what I heard you say was; “The more you fight evil the more it corrupts you.” That is what you said, isn’t it?


Tyrael: "Oh no, you misheard me - I said that the longer we fight evil, the more it can corrupt our hearts. Kulle serves as a lesson to us all, to be wary."

Passerby: "You are using the word 'can' incorrectly!" *pulls out dictionary, points to it* "See? Colloquialism has no place in such a dire situation!"

Tyrael: *narrows eyes, studies Passerby* "You seem familiar... don't I know you from somewhere?"

Passerby: "Er..."

Tyrael: *eyes widen in recognition* "Of course! wongkeiying, the Archangel of Grammar! We feared that you had fallen to Rakanoth, Lord of Despair, after trying to save the internet."

Passerby: *stares flatly at Tyrael*

Tyrael: *thoughtful* "Good grammar is a facet of Justice, you know. Have you ever considered climbing the Crystal Ladder? I happen to know that there is an opening..."

EDIT: Just for the record, I thought the OP's dialogue was funny - not trying to pick a fight.
Edited by Morduroth#1327 on 8/13/2012 1:49 PM PDT
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Well, as a small amount of evidence that he does have some, he had Izual as a lieutenant, they wouldn't have given him one if he didn't have some tactical knowledge would they? And he has been fighting in an eternal war, I'd assume hes picked some stuff up even if he wasn't ever commanding a large force. I don't think he really needed it during Act 3 either way.

They did show him as a commanding figure in Bastion's Keep. Did you ever see him doing the Tango or wearing dancing shoes?


Understand already that something that you see no evidence of in the game and is just hinted at is just weak. Clearly Tyrael had the ability to lead but it's never shown. So what, I'm supposed to imagine all the epic stuff? Should I imagine that Azmodan is a master strategist just because they say so?

07/28/2012 01:05 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Again, even though humanity was able to defeat 5 of the major evils, they would have fallen pray to Hell if Tyrael was not there to destroy the Worldstone. The corrupted Worldstone would have allowed Hell's armies access to Sanctuary without being limited like in the past, without the Nephalem regaining their power. They needed him last time he was on Sanctuary, who's to say they wouldn't have needed him again? Sanctuary may not have been any of the demons orginal goals, but both factions realized the Nephalem's power. Controling the Nephalem could give either side the upper hand.


You are cherry picking now. So Hell realized the importance of the nephalem but Heaven are still having problems, as they need to respect a pact that only they seem to care about. A pact is only a pact while both sides respect it. The fact that Heaven is more bent on punishing Tyrael for interfering... lol btw, he actually created the Horadrim, taught them how to use souldtones and taught them angelic magic and he never got punished... cool huh?

07/28/2012 01:05 AMPosted by AscendedOne
That was not Diablo's intent at the time, espacially since he was only controling a few people. He was attempting to free himself, which he suceeded at doing. Belial is an aspect of deception, not destruction for the sake of destruction. He had a purpose in Caldeum beyond just running the place into the ground. He was not attempting to be a beloved leader, he was attempting to break his people. He could have just ordered his guards to kill them after sending the iron wolfs away, but he had other plans.


Belial must have been in Caldeum before Tyrael fell because otherwise there would have been no reason for Tyrael to fall. Help humanity? as a human? doing what!? Standing around in camps and doing "important stuff" off screen that we never talk about!?

So if Belial was in Caldeum he must have had other plans not just the Black Plothole because he only found out about that from you. Also he had Adria for heck knows how much time. Why didn't he torture the information about the Black Plothole out of her? Are you going for the idea that he just caught her? Is everything conveniently happening because you are there? What was Adria even doing there? Vacationing in the exotic Caldeum sewers?
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07/28/2012 01:06 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Restraining one guard would be easy, but restraining 8 or more would have been alot harder espacially when considering that he was also attempting to protect an innocent.


How does one incompetent mortal escape from 8 guards then? The question was not why he didn't realize he was an idiot. The question is how did HE escape and Leah got captured?

07/29/2012 12:00 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Do the Archangels of Fate and Hope have lieutenants? What about when Wisdom was still around, did he have one? Azmodan was a tactician/general, it makes sense for him. I don't assume that he is able to lead an army, but thats not what he was doing. He was assisting in the defense of Bastions Keep. Did he need to have a tactical quality to do that?


What, you are assuming that Tyrael fought the eternal war alone? Him and his lieutenants? Because it's only mentioned that HE has lieutenants? Come on...
All the angels fought the eternal conflict, and it's very likely that all the members of the angiris council, being archangels and all were commanders. Small point, but again, no one is doubting that Tyrael is a good commander but they just say it and not show it. In other words, I'm making him stand around doing nothing but i am telling you he is a good commander. And because i said it, you have to take it on faith and like him for it. Doesn't work like that.

07/29/2012 12:44 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Numerous? I dont think so. Either way it would have been risky to do anything else, instead of becoming mortal.


Risky how exactly? He sacrifices his immortality and almost gets killed without delivering his message. I'd say he could have popped down as an archangel and told them and then faced the music. I still say that him having to come down to tell ppl that Belial was in Caldeum was retarded. Who cares? They would have figured that out eventually. And before you go to Caldeum no one even mentions the Black Plothole. So you cause Belial to start looking for it.
See why it seems like an 8 year old wrote it?

08/01/2012 08:30 PMPosted by AscendedOne
An army? Naw, the others (short of Belial and MAYBE Diablo) only had what they could wrangle up at the time. I see it as likely that Diablo didn't have an army ready to fend you off as soon as you followed him into Hell, Azmodan and Belial likely ceased control as much of it as possible before he renetered hell. I do not know how large Baal's army was, but it was the first "real army" you had to fight.


Sorry my friend but again this was an army just because they said it was. If we look at game mechanics, i think there were far more demons to fight in D2 then in D3. Ludicrous as it sounds that you single handedly beat back Azmodan's army then killed your way to him in hell and dispatching him as well it just felt less than it should. Some monsters on a field with catapults. Hmm. Baal's army in act 5 was a lot bigger and it made much more sense. You also had an element of believability because you saw barbarians fighting at your side a big part of the way. Here we must believe that after you stopped the attacks on the fortress you stepped out and went bat!@#$ insane and killed Hell's army. Riiiight....
Edited by Sovereign#1978 on 8/13/2012 1:00 PM PDT
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08/05/2012 03:10 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Well, they needed to know that Hell was about to attack. Other then that, anything Blizz wants Tyrael to be needed for. They needed him last time, that may be enough of reason for him to come help this time as well.


Hell wasn't about to attack. Azmodan gathers his forces just to get the Black Plothole. Before you go to Caldeum they didn't even know about it. All of them were chilling doing their own thing, on sanctuary or in Hell. Btw, Belial just being on Sanctuary and messing with Caldeum would have warranted the angels coming down and kicking his lying little !@#.

08/05/2012 03:10 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I don't remember everyone who claims it, but your charcter for one. I will not assume hes never doing anything since he is down here, after giving him his power and all that.


It would be really stupid if Tyrael was useless, right? That's why you are having trouble believing it and you are filling in the gaps? Thing is you are not supposed to do that. The story if told properly would show Tyrael's purpose. If any.

08/11/2012 12:02 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Do you not think that the other two on the council have any respect for the law? If they have even an ounce of respect for the laws that THEY made, there would be a damned good chance that Tyrael would be imprisoned or punished.


Basically what you are saying is that angels are morons. They make pacts that imply both sides have to do or not do something, and when the opposing party breaks the pact they still enforce it? Stop defending this, it makes no sense. They are becoming twice as weak as they lose an archangel and Hell benefits from breaking the pact.
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Understand already that something that you see no evidence of in the game and is just hinted at is just weak. Clearly Tyrael had the ability to lead but it's never shown. So what, I'm supposed to imagine all the epic stuff? Should I imagine that Azmodan is a master strategist just because they say so?


Yes it is never shown. Intill they do show it, the best you can do is imagine it.

You are cherry picking now. So Hell realized the importance of the nephalem but Heaven are still having problems, as they need to respect a pact that only they seem to care about. A pact is only a pact while both sides respect it. The fact that Heaven is more bent on punishing Tyrael for interfering... lol btw, he actually created the Horadrim, taught them how to use souldtones and taught them angelic magic and he never got punished... cool huh?


For some stupid reason they are keeping to the pact, but that doesn't mean they don't realize what the Nephalem can do. He never got punished for teaching the Horadrim those things because he was able to keep it a secert. Correct me if I'm wrong.....

Belial must have been in Caldeum before Tyrael fell because otherwise there would have been no reason for Tyrael to fall. Help humanity? as a human? doing what!? Standing around in camps and doing "important stuff" off screen that we never talk about!?

So if Belial was in Caldeum he must have had other plans not just the Black Plothole because he only found out about that from you. Also he had Adria for heck knows how much time. Why didn't he torture the information about the Black Plothole out of her? Are you going for the idea that he just caught her? Is everything conveniently happening because you are there? What was Adria even doing there? Vacationing in the exotic Caldeum sewers?


How would Tyrael know that Belial was STILL in Caldeum after 20 years? He most likely somehow learned it while he was still in Heaven or realized that for some reason the warning needed to be passed on then learned where Belial was after coming to Sanctuary. FYI, Tyrael is not human but rather a mortal..... The stuff he'd be doing would not nessisarly be relevant to the main plot but still important. If they ever decide to fill in the gaps they can say Tyrael did whatever they want him to have done.

Uh..... He tried to? Isn't that what they were doing when you got there? As for why he didn't do it sooner, he either just learned of it or just learned that Adria had knowledge about it. Well Adria had come to claim the Black Soulstone after she managed to mark (Or Diablo marked, who knows really?) all the other evils.

How does one incompetent mortal escape from 8 guards then? The question was not why he didn't realize he was an idiot. The question is how did HE escape and Leah got captured?


I don't assume hes an "incompetent mortal" but I do assume he doesn't have his former power. I assume that he'd be able to defeat a number of guards, but not nessisarly be able to prevent them from capturing Leah. Lack of Wisdom is not the best explination for how Leah got captured but he didn't.

What, you are assuming that Tyrael fought the eternal war alone? Him and his lieutenants? Because it's only mentioned that HE has lieutenants? Come on...
All the angels fought the eternal conflict, and it's very likely that all the members of the angiris council, being archangels and all were commanders. Small point, but again, no one is doubting that Tyrael is a good commander but they just say it and not show it. In other words, I'm making him stand around doing nothing but i am telling you he is a good commander. And because i said it, you have to take it on faith and like him for it. Doesn't work like that.


Where do you get that? Where do I say that Tyrael is the only one to fight the eternal war? I'd assume he has a larger part in the war then the Archangel of Hope and possibly Fate. They were focusing one what YOUR charcter was doing, not Tyrael was doing.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 8/13/2012 1:57 PM PDT
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Risky how exactly? He sacrifices his immortality and almost gets killed without delivering his message. I'd say he could have popped down as an archangel and told them and then faced the music. I still say that him having to come down to tell ppl that Belial was in Caldeum was retarded. Who cares? They would have figured that out eventually. And before you go to Caldeum no one even mentions the Black Plothole. So you cause Belial to start looking for it.
See why it seems like an 8 year old wrote it?


So how does Tyrael escape Heaven and manage to escape his law with all eyes apon him? It's risky in the sense that if he does attempt to ride out his legal system, the demonic forces on and headed for Sanctuary may be able to corrupt/destroy it before he can do CRAP about it. Even if they did uncover Belials pressence eventually, it probably would have been too late for them to do crap about it. Belial learned of the Black Soulstone around the time you came to Caldeum. You didn't nessisarly cause him to start looking for it. No I don't.

Sorry my friend but again this was an army just because they said it was. If we look at game mechanics, i think there were far more demons to fight in D2 then in D3. Ludicrous as it sounds that you single handedly beat back Azmodan's army then killed your way to him in hell and dispatching him as well it just felt less than it should. Some monsters on a field with catapults. Hmm. Baal's army in act 5 was a lot bigger and it made much more sense. You also had an element of believability because you saw barbarians fighting at your side a big part of the way. Here we must believe that after you stopped the attacks on the fortress you stepped out and went bat!@#$ insane and killed Hell's army. Riiiight....


I do not believe that game mechanics nessisarly have anything to do with the size of the army. The game mechanics were mostly based on around what would be balanced. I believe it to be highly likely that Azmodan's army was larger then Baal's. Azmodan had 20 years to gather that army with no interference with any of the other prime evils whereas Baal had like a month or two to gather his. Nephalem are said to have powers greater then any of the Prime Evils. Do you have problems with how much time had passed between the worldstone being destroyed and us regaining our powers? Do you have problems the theme itself? How it is conveyed? Or do you just not believe that a Nephalem could destroy that many demons?

Hell wasn't about to attack. Azmodan gathers his forces just to get the Black Plothole. Before you go to Caldeum they didn't even know about it. All of them were chilling doing their own thing, on sanctuary or in Hell. Btw, Belial just being on Sanctuary and messing with Caldeum would have warranted the angels coming down and kicking his lying little !@#.


Tyrael seemed to think so. Hell isn't going to attack Heaven without an advantage as they are missing the other 5 Evils, and being able to control Sanctuary is a pretty big advantage in their war. I do not believe they have another option. If Belial being on Sanctuary warranted the Angels coming down, then surely Diablo, Baal and Mephisto being on Sanctuary would have warranted it too.

It would be really stupid if Tyrael was useless, right? That's why you are having trouble believing it and you are filling in the gaps? Thing is you are not supposed to do that. The story if told properly would show Tyrael's purpose. If any.


It would be incredibly stupid if Tyrael was worthless. But they haven't said that he has done nothing during acts 2 and 3, they just haven't said he was doing something. For now I'll wait for them to fill in the gaps, if they ever decide to do so. But I will not assume simply because they don't show him doing anything during Act 2 and Act 3 that he does nothing during that time.

Basically what you are saying is that angels are morons. They make pacts that imply both sides have to do or not do something, and when the opposing party breaks the pact they still enforce it? Stop defending this, it makes no sense. They are becoming twice as weak as they lose an archangel and Hell benefits from breaking the pact.


For some reason the Angels are keeping to the pact, I'll wait intill Blizzard explains the reason or untill the end of the D3 expansion content to question it. But for now I'll assume that theres some valid reason they are keeping to it.
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08/13/2012 02:43 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I'll wait intill Blizzard explains the reason or untill the end of the D3 expansion content to question it.


I have a big problem with this type of thinking.
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07/10/2012 01:38 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Hes talking about mortals/humans in general. Angels are alot harder to corrupt.


Just ask Izual.
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Posts: 1,198
08/14/2012 11:30 PMPosted by Notyalc
Hes talking about mortals/humans in general. Angels are alot harder to corrupt.


Just ask Izual.


K.... So over the course of an eternal war, a few angels become corrupt?

08/13/2012 07:28 PMPosted by LittleDisco
I'll wait intill Blizzard explains the reason or untill the end of the D3 expansion content to question it.


I have a big problem with this type of thinking.


Well ask them at their next lore Q/A. They aren't likely to post in this forum and thats the most likely time your gonna get an answer to any of these questions.
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08/11/2012 12:02 AMPosted by AscendedOne
Just because hes not doing anything in the spotlight doesn't mean that blizzard wont have him doing anything behind the scenes. You have not proved that Tyrael has been worthless, only that they haven't really shown many actions of his during D3.


If Tyrael didn't advance the plot this shows he was useless as those other NPCs who stand around not doing anything.

The character never says "Tyrael is useful", the character does however mention that he is a good leader. Play act 3 again if your so sure I'm wrong here.


The character just says they're happy to have an angel here, not that Tyrael is a good leader.

I've never seen anything suggesting that Mephisto's forces were anywhere near the size of army. At the start of act 3, they say forces which is incredibly vague considering numbers. I repeat, where is it mentioned that Mephisto's forces are anywhere near the size of an army? Where is their "army" given a number?


Baal's and Azmodan's armies aren't given a number so by you logic they aren't armies. See how nonsensical your request is.

08/13/2012 01:56 PMPosted by AscendedOne
Yes it is never shown. Intill they do show it, the best you can do is imagine it.


Better yet you can assume that Tyrael isn't doing anything, which is what is shown in the game.

FYI, Tyrael is not human but rather a mortal..... The stuff he'd be doing would not nessisarly be relevant to the main plot but still important. If they ever decide to fill in the gaps they can say Tyrael did whatever they want him to have done.


Given that the main plot involves stopping the demon lords anything Tyrael is doing that isn't related to this isn't important.

08/13/2012 02:43 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I do not believe that game mechanics nessisarly have anything to do with the size of the army. The game mechanics were mostly based on around what would be balanced. I believe it to be highly likely that Azmodan's army was larger then Baal's. Azmodan had 20 years to gather that army with no interference with any of the other prime evils whereas Baal had like a month or two to gather his.


You're forgetting about the lesser evil Belial, who Azmodan was fighting a civil war against. So unless Azmodan beat Belial at the same time the Worldstone was destroyed he'd have had less than 20 years to gather an army without interference.

Tyrael seemed to think so. Hell isn't going to attack Heaven without an advantage as they are missing the other 5 Evils, and being able to control Sanctuary is a pretty big advantage in their war. I do not believe they have another option. If Belial being on Sanctuary warranted the Angels coming down, then surely Diablo, Baal and Mephisto being on Sanctuary would have warranted it too.


Hell has always attacked Heaven, even when they didn't have a big advantage. Also controlling the Sanctuary won't provide any advantage because it currently lacks anything angels or demons want.

Tyrael did come to the Sanctuary when Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto were present and helped capture them using the soulstones. However as Belial was a less of a threat an angel wasn't required.

It would be incredibly stupid if Tyrael was worthless. But they haven't said that he has done nothing during acts 2 and 3, they just haven't said he was doing something. For now I'll wait for them to fill in the gaps, if they ever decide to do so. But I will not assume simply because they don't show him doing anything during Act 2 and Act 3 that he does nothing during that time.


Unless Blizzard fills in the gaps I'm going to base my judgement on Tyrael was shown doing during the game (mostly nothing).

For some reason the Angels are keeping to the pact, I'll wait intill Blizzard explains the reason or untill the end of the D3 expansion content to question it. But for now I'll assume that theres some valid reason they are keeping to it.


Blizzard should have explained this in the game. Their failure to do this shows just how bad the story was.
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Posts: 1,198
If Tyrael didn't advance the plot this shows he was useless as those other NPCs who stand around not doing anything.


He didn't advance the plot but that doesn't automaticly mean he wasn't useful during the time peroid of D3.

The character just says they're happy to have an angel here, not that Tyrael is a good leader.


No, there is a line saying the charcter thinks that Tyrael is a good leader.

During the conversation "Tyrael's Command":

WD: "And your leadership has guided us all."
DH: "It helps to be working with a great commander."
Monk: "Battle is what I was made for. You have led us well."
Barb: "And you, a great commander."
Wizard: "Thank you, Tyrael. You are a great commander."

Baal's and Azmodan's armies aren't given a number so by you logic they aren't armies. See how nonsensical your request is.


Azmodan is constantly refering to his being an army, others refer to his forces being an army. The entire point of act 3 is that it is an army. A small portion of Baal's army is shown at the act 5's first cutscene. It was able to roll over the Barbarians forces and still have a large portion of it left, while part of it managed to contain the Barbarian's in their town. No where in D2 was Mephisto's forces refered to as an army, just forces. Now I repeat. Where have you ever seen ANYTHING suggesting Mephisto had an "army" worth of troops?

Better yet you can assume that Tyrael isn't doing anything, which is what is shown in the game.


They haven't shown him in the plot at all really, but that again does not = not doing anything at all.

Given that the main plot involves stopping the demon lords anything Tyrael is doing that isn't related to this isn't important.


Tyraels actions could be anything not related to the main plot and anything related to the main plot that is not required to understand the story of D3. It could be pretty much anything.

You're forgetting about the lesser evil Belial, who Azmodan was fighting a civil war against. So unless Azmodan beat Belial at the same time the Worldstone was destroyed he'd have had less than 20 years to gather an army without interference.


K so he had less then 20 years. So like what? Around 7-15 years to gather up an army while in Hell compared to Baal's 2ish months on Sanctuary?

Hell has always attacked Heaven, even when they didn't have a big advantage. Also controlling the Sanctuary won't provide any advantage because it currently lacks anything angels or demons want.


Yes.... They attacked heaven when there wasn't other options available (Sanctuary), or when they had an opportunity. If they attacked heaven between the events of D2 and D3, they would be doing so with a large disadvantage. Heaven wants the Nephalem, Hell wants the Nephalem. The majority of mankind is still weakened from the lingering effects of the Worldstone, striking now would most likely allow control of them when they grow into their powers if successful.

Tyrael did come to the Sanctuary when Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto were present and helped capture them using the soulstones. However as Belial was a less of a threat an angel wasn't required.


One angel came down. One. The majority of the Angels did not think it warranted action.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 8/15/2012 7:14 PM PDT
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08/15/2012 02:27 PMPosted by AscendedOne
He didn't advance the plot but that doesn't automaticly mean he wasn't useful during the time peroid of D3.


He didn't help you beat the demon lords this automatically makes him useless.

No, there is a line saying the charcter thinks that Tyrael is a good leader.

During the conversation "Tyrael's Command":

WD: "And your leadership has guided us all."
DH: "It helps to be working with a great commander."
Monk: "Battle is what I was made for. You have led us well."
Barb: "And you, a great commander."
Wizard: "Thank you, Tyrael. You are a great commander."


So someone Tyrael isn't commanding thinks he's a good commander for reasons they don't explain. Do you have any evidence from the people Tyrael is meant to be commanding that they think he's a good commander?

Azmodan is constantly refering to his being an army, others refer to his forces being an army. The entire point of act 3 is that it is an army. A small portion of Baal's army is shown at the act 5's first cutscene. It was able to roll over the Barbarians forces and still have a large portion of it left, while part of it managed to contain the Barbarian's in their town. No where in D2 was Mephisto's forces refered to as an army, just forces. Now I repeat. Where have you ever seen ANYTHING suggesting Mephisto had an "army" worth of troops?


You mean other than the Zakarum being referred to as a military order and all the soldiers they possess. Don't forget they they destroyed Kurast, the capital of Kehjistan.

Tyraels actions could be anything not related to the main plot and anything related to the main plot that is not required to understand the story of D3. It could be pretty much anything.


Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds? If it's not related to the main plot then it's useless because it doesn't have any effect on the game.

K so he had less then 20 years. So like what? Around 7-15 years to gather up an army while in Hell compared to Baal's 2ish months on Sanctuary?


Well if Mephisto started raising the army when he was free and Diablo raised his army after he was free (that's why there were so many demons in D1) then it shouldn't be too difficult for Baal to gather an army, especially if he recruited the former armies of Mephisto and Diablo.

Given that Azmodan and Belial have been fighting for control of hell since the dark exile it's impossible to know how long Azmodan has had to gather an army. Especially since some demons, such as the Mallet Lords, refuse to side with any demon lord.

One angel came down. One. The majority of the Angels did not think it warranted action.


The majority of angels didn't know because Tyrael was trying to keep it a secret.

Anyway as the threat was less this meant no angels were required.
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I read some of the thread. I'd like to put my 2 cents in. OP is right. Tyrael was not wise at all in Act II. Heck he wasn't wise at all through most of all the acts. Except at the very end where he has that light-bulb moment and decides to fight alongside you again in Act IV. You know where he goes on about how mortals face death everyday and go on and so on. By making that realization I bet he thinks himself to be wise.
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