Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

Good stuff. Yea the 1.43mh was more about future upgrades so I don't limit myself.
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@Nubtro

Thank you for compiling the information, I used it extensively in the process of picking gear AND I've posted the link to the info quite a few times for players wanting to understand Atk spd.

I have a question that I'm hoping you or someone (ANYONE) can answer that is based on an in-game observation.

Does frenzy atk spd make Nados spin faster?
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^
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@Nubtro

Thank you for compiling the information, I used it extensively in the process of picking gear AND I've posted the link to the info quite a few times for players wanting to understand Atk spd.

I have a question that I'm hoping you or someone (ANYONE) can answer that is based on an in-game observation.

Does frenzy atk spd make Nados spin faster?


No, it does not.
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What he said :)

The Frenzy 15-75% attack speed bonus only applies to Frenzy itself, but the Maniac 4-20% damage bonus applies to all skills including RLTW and WW.
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What he said :)

The Frenzy 15-75% attack speed bonus only applies to Frenzy itself, but the Maniac 4-20% damage bonus applies to all skills including RLTW and WW.


Ahhhh...that explains quite a bit. Thank you. There have been times where my sustain wasn't keeping up with the punishment...a few whacks for frenzy stacks and fresh Nados saw my HP globe topped off immediately....due to the extra damage the Nados were hitting for and not an increased tick rate. Cheers.
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@ Bloodyzbub: yep that was the increased damage (assuming you have life steal).

On topic of the recently added "dps" values, there´s been some discussion that made me add the following text in the RLTW/WW mechanics topic under the first (RLTW) chart to clear confusion amongst some players.

1. The dps value in the chart is directly applied to the skill damage value (20% weapon damage in the case of RLTW) and thus can NOT be used to calculate damage with the help of the character sheet "damage" displayed in the game.

I advise people to not work with the character sheet "damage" when calculating the correct ingame damage as it applies some multipliers too generally or - basically character sheet "damage" is average damage per second with auto-swing (if you run out of Fury and click a Fury spender for example) and not with skills.

Incase you really insist on applying character sheet "damage" with the dps values provided in the chart (note that your calc won´t be 100% accurate then), you have to divide the result by your aps. Aps is already included in the sheet "damage" and also in my dps value so it would be basically applied twice (tick frequency breakpoints directly reflect aps).

For reference, here´s how an accurate damage formula looks like (result of ingame tests):

http://www.diablofans.com/topic/65055-d3rawr-online-diablo3-dps-ehp-calculator-comparison-tool/#entry1081786

To get real "dps" with the above formula, the result from the formula would usually have to be multiplied by tick frequency. The dps value in my chart simplifies the calculation giving you the direct result of skill damage per tick (20% weapon damage) times tick frequency. So when you apply the dps value as skill damage multiplier ("K") you´ll get real damage per second without the need to further multiply by tick frequency.


Basically what´s been pointed out in the following topic

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7394209928

is the fact that the dps values were incorrect and misleading if applied together with character sheet "damage" which many people see as a determining number (although in reality it´s very inaccurate and not applicable to true damage calcs).

Long story short if you want a quick but very rough estimate WW/RLTW dps calculation utilizing both the displayed character sheet "damage" value (inventory) and my dps value from the chart, multiply the character sheet value by my dps value/100 and afterwards divide the result by your (average) aps.

For correct dps calcs, either use ssdraw´s calculator or manually calc stuff using the formula I linked to in the update, my dps values should simplify manual calcs and are intender to work as a quick reference when comparing skill damage :)
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 12/16/2012 7:22 AM PST
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Good stuff Nubtro...b/c of you I helped regear a bunch of friends and they are like WTF this is amazing.
Edited by MASKOAA#1251 on 12/16/2012 7:32 AM PST
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Hi guys,
please comment on my gear, just wanna know if im doing it the right way.
do i need to change things around to be more efficient?

thanks
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Your Brunhilde has 23 MH and 26 OH RLTW ticks with WotB up. If your Enchantress is alive (assuming she´s your follower), your sword achieves the 30 tick breakpoint. You´d need 7% ASI (IAS) so that your EF achieves the 26 tick breakpoint (including Enchantress) and 11% without Ench.
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bump for friend
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Nubtro, I forget to read your edit post on old topic, and I try reply to the bold line below :

Nope you mixed up two things here, or we simply misunderstand each other. What you call "real" dps is damage per second at 1.00 aps. What I mean is how much (weapon) damage you actually do per second at breakpoints.

So for me, DPS = damage you do per second, and in that case it´s 171% and not 60%...even the game sees DPS as weapon damage * attacks per second and in the case of WW/RLTW it´s weapon damage * ticks per second (frequency), I don´t see a point in further dividing the number by aps - you basically multiply by aps (aps = tick frequency) and then divide by aps ._.


anyway, base on your post above, you use:
636,825 / 3.15797 = 201,656
201,656 * 1460% = 2,944,177 dps

and in my old post, I try correct your 1460% by 1460%/aps = 1460%/3.1579 = 462%.

the reason is your chart will make people think "faster aps will deal more dps", but it is not, it always deal same dps for any aps.

eg: player A have 300kdps with 2aps vs Player B have 300kdps with 4aps,
- I say they both have same eDPS. with 5x tornado(60%) + 1 WW(145) = 445%
- your chart say 2aps = 400% dmg, 4aps = 900% dmg, which may mean player B deal 2x more dps ?

PS, blizzard's programmers are smart enough to taken IAS into skill damage, and when they say Tornado deal 60% damage, it will automatic adjust with any aps, eg:
Tornado's damage: Tick x 20% x DPS/APS = 60%DPS
-> Tick = 60% * APS / 20%*
-> 1.33aps -> 60% * 1.33 / 20% = 3.99 tick (same as your chart)
-> 1.43aps -> 60% * 1.43 / 20% = 4.29 tick (same as your chart)
-> 1.54aps -> 60% * 1.54 / 20% = 4.62 tick (same as your chart)
......
.....
.....
overall, each tornado will deal 60% of your dps, it doesn't matter how much aps you have.

for DW, it is much more complicated, I am sure their developer will find out a way to apply both weapon's dps(instead of last swing) similar to WW.

============

EDIT:
I am not sure how blizzard handle rounding (eg 3.99 tick , 4.62 etc), the video you record is base on client side(with difference result base on lag), and I am sure server may run them differencly (without lag)
Edited by huanAK#6843 on 12/21/2012 8:33 PM PST
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the reason is your chart will make people think "faster aps will deal more dps", but it is not, it always deal same dps for any aps.

eg: player A have 300kdps with 2aps vs Player B have 300kdps with 4aps,
- I say they both have same eDPS. with 5x tornado(60%) + 1 WW(145) = 445%
- your chart say 2aps = 400% dmg, 4aps = 900% dmg, which may mean player B deal 2x more dps?

PS, blizzard's programmers are smart enough to taken IAS into skill damage, and when they say Tornado deal 60% damage, it will automatic adjust with any aps, eg:
Tornado's damage: Tick x 20% x DPS/APS = 60%DPS
-> Tick = 60% * APS / 20%*
-> 1.33aps -> 60% * 1.33 / 20% = 3.99 tick (same as your chart)
-> 1.43aps -> 60% * 1.43 / 20% = 4.29 tick (same as your chart)
-> 1.54aps -> 60% * 1.54 / 20% = 4.62 tick (same as your chart)
......
.....
.....
overall, each tornado will deal 60% of your dps, it doesn't matter how much aps you have.

for DW, it is much more complicated, I am sure their developer will find out a way to apply both weapon's dps(instead of last swing) similar to WW.

============

EDIT:
I am not sure how blizzard handle rounding (eg 3.99 tick , 4.62 etc), the video you record is base on client side(with difference result base on lag), and I am sure server may run them differencly (without lag)


here we go again :)

We have completely different opinions on what dps means so it´s impossible to agree here...

You:
- DPS = character sheet displayed damage
- eDPS = character sheet displayed damage times tick weapon damage divided by aps

Me:
- DPS = tick weapon damage (20%) times tick frequency

As I said in previous responds to your posts, you´re too keen on the character sheet displayed damage (what you consider DPS - just let it go) and ignore that it is already a calculated value and focus solely on deriving your results from that value...this is simply wrong from a game mechanics perspective - how the game actually works.

There´s no part of the game which applies the character sheet displayed damage in any calculations that would result in the numbers you see on the screen when you hit a monster. Because of this, from my perspective, the character sheet displayed damage is an irrelevant value. You just forcefully try to apply that number but I´m telling you that it´s in no way used to calculate the damage numbers ticking above monster heads (also, when we´re at it, the game doesn´t even apply tooltip values to calculate damage ticks).

People should understand the dps part of my charts unless they´re totally ignorant to the text I state before the charts. I can´t prevent people from "misunderstand" the values (for example if character sheet displayed damage means the world to them j/k), hopefully they didn´t just jump right to the charts and actually read the game mechanics stuff written in the first post.

I´m not forcing people to understand the exact game mechanics of damage calculation, but at least they should get that actual damage calculation in the game =/= character displayed damage (nor tooltip damage for that matter).

Those two values give the layman player a general idea/simple comparison tool about damage in the game but they´re actually irrelevant if you care about the correct game mechanics. Just decide for your own - do you want to know how the game works and correctly calculate (predict) numbers you see above monster heads? If yes, apply the data in the first post correctly (!). Or is it "I don´t care just gimme a rough number", apply whatever you want including character sheet displayed damage divided by aps.

Example: Tooltip says RLTW does 60% weapon damage as physical for 3 seconds. What actually happens in the game? 20% weapon damage per tick, applied at calculated frame length (20/aps, rounded down).

One more note. More attack speed = actual damage applied at higher frequency = more actual damage per value of time (second). Elementary logic.

And don´t get me started on "developers are smart enough"...yes they are smart enough to give the layman a simple value stated in one sentence for comparison and at the same time hide the actual game mechanics (for reasons only they know) from the players, I´d say good job on their part. The first post is a sneak peak behind the curtain, take it as a whole (ideally), parts of it (breakpoints) or leave it altogether.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 12/23/2012 3:07 AM PST
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thank you again for this work man, I have linked this thread many of times in the barb forum to help out other players.
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awesome post, but i don't understand 90% of it. can you convert this into practical advice in terms of gearing?

here are some questions i often have. can breakpoints be understood as non-linearity in an otherwise linear function? in other words, character DPS is a good ballpark for laymen like me, except when i am close to a breakpoint. should i pick a weapon that will give me high char DPS, and then if i'm close to a break point, get some IAS gear to hit that breakpoint?

in other words, lets say a 1.6 atks OH gives 200k DPS, as does a 1.2 atks OH. Both result in an atk speed that is not close to a breakpoint. now, also assuming that you will run sprint off your MH echo, which has an atk speed of say 1.4. in this case, there is theoretically no benefit to the 1.6 atks OH correct? i know most ppl would think the 1.6 atk OH is better than the slow 1.2, but I don't see mathematically why that's the case, taking the listed assumptions.

my other question is whether a mace is better than an axe (1.2 vs 1.3), assuming that they both give u 200K char sheet DPS. I would think the mace is better because sprint goes off min/max/avg dmg (pre-atk speed corrected), as opposed to MH DPS. is this the case?

so the motivator to the first question is my use of a spear in my OH. i don't see why a spear is bad, but clearly ppl don't think it's good, as they are priced at less than 1/2 that for a mace. as for the second question, i want to see whether maces should be priced higher than axes.
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I'll try to explain breakpoints in really simple terms b/c I found it all confusing at first to.

A breakpoint is a section between 2 different attack speeds that achieve the same amount of hits per twister....for instance. If one weapon has a 2.24 attack speed when checking in your stats(you can check by opening your stats and swinging each weapon it changes depending on the weapon) and the other weapon has a 2.49 attack speed well then both weapons will give the same amount of attack speed to your twisters since they both fall under the

2.22223-2.50000 aps - 8 fpt - 7.50 tps - 150.00% dps - 23 ticks - 460% dmg

Breakpoint.

You can gear in a way to make your offhand really fast to hit really high breakpoints or you can keep them about the same....if you go for a really high off hand breakpoint to achieve it in battle you would have to swing your offhand before going into WhirlWind / Run Like The Wind b/c the twisters go off the last weapon's swung attack speed.

To figure out how much attack speed you need for next breakpoint use this calculator to import your armory and add/subtract depending on your needs.
http://www.d3rawr.com/
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Were did Nubtro's profile go??
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Posts: 8,053
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12/23/2012 06:34 PMPosted by MASKOAA
Were did Nubtro's profile go??


http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Nubtro-2147/hero/840269

Forums being a bit buggy
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We have completely different opinions on what dps means so it´s impossible to agree here...

You:
- DPS = character sheet displayed damage
- eDPS = character sheet displayed damage times tick weapon damage divided by aps

Me:
- DPS = tick weapon damage (20%) times tick frequency


if you look at Cleave's description:
Cleave - Generate: 5 Fury per attack
Swing your weapon in a wide arc to deal 140% weapon damage to all enemies caught in the swing.

This mean Cleave will deal your paper dps x 140%.

Example: Tooltip says RLTW does 60% weapon damage as physical for 3 seconds. What actually happens in the game? 20% weapon damage per tick, applied at calculated frame length (20/aps, rounded down).

One more note. More attack speed = actual damage applied at higher frequency = more actual damage per value of time (second). Elementary logic.


same as cleave, this mean Tornado will deal your paper dps x 60%. last 3 seconds

now, "tornado" is very special damage over time(DoT) spell, unlike Rend or other DoT which nevert factor IAS into final damage. Tornado do include your ias into final dps

and it is really easy to calculate how many ticks:

Total Ticks(for 3 seconds) = (60%dmg x 3s) x (APS / 20% )
= 180% x APS / 20%
= 9 X APS

now try compare this formula with your table, it is almost correct, depend on how it round up.

this apply to Wizard's Wicked Wind tick:
Wicked Wind - Twisters no longer travel but spin in place, dealing 252% weapon damage as Arcane over 6 seconds to everything caught in them.

Wicked Wind's ticks = 252% x APS / 20% = 12.6 x APS

now you can compare this formula to Wicked Wind's ticks on wizard's forum:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641
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