Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

now try compare this formula with your table, it is almost correct, depend on how it round up.

At this point I have no clue what you´re trying to prove here. Basically how you "think" the game works is wrong (it generally applies to us all until we figure it out). I don´t care about an "almost" correct formula...I gave you the game mechanics of WW and RLTW and a 100% correct way to calculate the damage output of those skills (backed up by countless ingame tests), yet you tell me...I´m not really sure what you mean.

Also tooltip info is useless and proves nothing. If you think the game actually applies those values, you´re very wrong.

1. There´s been numerous cases where skills did (or still do) different damage per tick (hit)than the tooltip says. Here I was researching skills back in early June and back then there were plenty of skills with incorrect tooltips:

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3660206725?page=22#433

In some cases the tooltip was way off (Rolling Thunder IIRC outright stated 155% weapon damage while it did 50% more), in other cases the tooltip is just a rounded number. For example in the current version of the game, Volcanic Eruption does 145%*1.3/3 damage so 188.5%/3 per tick and not just 189% like the tooltip says.

2. Hmm, why does Weapon Throw apply damage at a 20% faster rate than Cleave and Bash and Seismic Slam on the other hand 30% slower than Cleave and Bash at the same aps values? Oh, the tooltip doesn´t say anything about that? Guess what, your tooltip-relying formula just died. Feel free to magically create a new one.

Do you understand what I´m trying to say? As a general rule, although (in some cases very) incorrect, it´s possible to calculate DPS with your

character sheet displayed damage * tooltip stated damage value / attacks per second

but that formula will never be correct, because each skill has different mechanics, different rounding, different scaling with aps (if, at all) and the tooltip might be incorrect (rounded). So until weird people like me spend countless hours researching the skills in-game, we won´t know for sure if our damage calcs are correct or not. Why? Because the developers simply don´t reveal the info to us players.

Also, if you intend to create a general damage formula for all skills, feel free to do so, but please back it up with some actual in-game tests. If you don´t, it stays just a subjective and baseless assumption. Here´s a tip from a researcher. Calling skills "very special" just because they disprove your formula isn´t the best idea. At this point, nothing you´ve posted would allow us to calculate (predict) and afterwards verify the actual damage above monster heads in the game. If you apply the info in the first post though, you can calculate everything.

Sorry if this post came across as too harsh, it´s just that I don´t understand what your point is. I really tried to, I even admitted that you have a point with your calc giving a very rough estimate dps if applied correctly, but now you´re creating even more formulas without backing them up. Oh well...
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 12/27/2012 2:29 AM PST
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MattGL wrote:
https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415515287?page=1#19
"Its ridiculous how often I read this. Even more so how people just say whatever they want to believe as fact.

When you are whirlwinding, it swings your weapons in rapid succession. Meaning everytime you sprint, its a crap shoot on which weapon you swung last.

When you set your weapons up so you are sprinting on the dagger, you will only get that benefit until you ww once, which will be on the first mob you see. From then on out it is just blasting through whatever area you are in, and if you're stopping to set your dagger before every sprint, you are wildly inefficient.
"

-------------

Is there any truth to that? I thought it was just you swing your fast weapon before WW/RLTW and then it stays at the APS until you swing again? I didnt think WW changed the RLTW APS.
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WW sticks to the frequency while channeling but it changes RLTW tick frequency, depending on what the game sees as last weapon swing before you activate RLTW.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497?page=9#169

I guess I forgot to update the first post with the above info, sorry for that. I´ll add it soon.
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edit wrong thread
Edited by MASKOAA#1251 on 1/7/2013 4:58 PM PST
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I really wish the character details page had a main and offhand average damage listed.

What confuses most people is the listed DPS (dual wield) in game is a composite based on two weapon swings -- first the mainhand, then the offhand. If the details page listed damage per swing for main and offhand as well as aps for each weapon, it would help somewhat, but I think stats like those shown at d3rawr would confuse 99.9% of the D3 population.

If you use a 2H weapon or 1H + shield, you can use approximately huanAK's formula (coincidentally, he uses a shield) to get an exact damage quickly for each tornado/WW tick, then multiply by the ticks per second from your chart. I think something can be gained from a vague idea huanAK is talking about, and hopefully I can illustrate something that seems to elude many people (myself included) for quite a while.

I think the 2H setup is the easiest to illustrate.

Say I have char sheet dps of 200K and 1.41 APS. I am just under the 1.43 breakpoint. What if I have 200K and 1.43 APS??

1) At 1.41 aps, average damage per hit is 200K/1.41 = 141.8K.
2) At 1.43 aps, average damage per hit is 200K/1.43 = 139.9K

In case (1), my realized DPS with WW/sprint is based off the per hit damage and the ticks per second. At 1.41 aps, this is 4.29 tps, at 1.43 aps, this is 4.62 tps.

So what do I gain by getting 2% more ias, but without getting any more char sheet dps? This looks like a sidegrade! It's not. The truth is, the first setup is equivalent to a barb with 190K dps and 1.34 aps. The average hit per WW and the frequency of hits is identical for case (1) and a 190K (1.34 aps x 141.8K avg hit) barb. So that 2% ias was effectively a 10K damage upgrade, it just didn't show up on the lying character screen. So there are cases where you can actually increase your overall in game DPS and have the character sheet damage GO DOWN (i.e. 200K, 1.41 aps to 195K, 1.43 aps barb)

This is what is meant by 'wasted' ias. It does nothing but inflate the stat sheet.


But what if I have 2 barbs, 200K dps, 1.34 APS and 200K dps, 1.43 APS? In this case, both builds have been properly optimized, and they will both be doing identical damage, though the second one will have better fury generation due to higher ticks per second.

Now for dual wield, it gets much more complex. For 2H or SnB setups, the lying character screen isn't off by too much. Something like 8% at most. But for dual wield with disparate damages/speeds on your weapons, it is much less accurate, and you really need to use d3rawr to evaluate. When you start looking at high end characters and upgrades they look at, being off by 8% is enormous. Sometimes your upgrade to the lying screen damage is approximately this much.
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Hey, Nubtro, quick question....I have been advocating the use of Twister's spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=0

and was given the understanding that the IAS numbers in red were how much IAS you needed from gear ONLY to attain a certain breakpoint and that dual wield bonus (15%) was already factored into those numbers and was not to be used as part of that equation.

If you could please clarify this for me that would be great.
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I know D3RAW already factors it in when loading your profile b/c it shows 15 percent less IAS from gear then your D3 Armory shows.
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Nubtro, I use your tick number and create this excel table:


Main Hand's dps: 100,000dps (base on mainhand weapon)
Main hand's weapon dmg = 100,000dps / aps
nado's dps = dmg * 0.2 * ticks * 5 (assume 5 nado)
ww's dps = dmg*1.45/3*ticks
(assume offhand have same damage as main hand)

(break point are mark by underline)
aps ticks dmg nado's dps ww's dps total dps
0.900 2.73 111,111 303,333 146,611 449,944
0.910 2.86 109,890 314,286 151,905 466,190
0.960 3.00 104,167 312,500 151,042 463,542
1.010 3.16 99,010 312,871 151,221 464,092
1.053 3.33 94,967 316,239 152,849 469,088
1.120 3.53 89,286 315,179 152,336 467,515
1.150 3.53 86,957 306,957 148,362 455,319
1.177 3.75 84,962 318,607 153,993 472,600
1.200 3.75 83,333 312,500 151,042 463,542
1.250 3.75 80,000 300,000 145,000 445,000
1.251 4.00 79,936 319,744 154,543 474,287
1.300 4.00 76,923 307,692 148,718 456,410
1.340 4.29 74,627 320,149 154,739 474,888
1.400 4.29 71,429 306,429 148,107 454,536
1.430 4.62 69,930 323,077 156,154 479,231
1.500 4.62 66,667 308,000 148,867 456,867
1.540 5.00 64,935 324,675 156,926 481,602
1.600 5.00 62,500 312,500 151,042 463,542
1.670 5.45 59,880 326,347 157,735 484,082
1.700 5.45 58,824 320,588 154,951 475,539
1.800 5.45 55,556 302,778 146,343 449,120
1.820 6.00 54,945 329,670 159,341 489,011
1.900 6.00 52,632 315,789 152,632 468,421
2.000 6.00 50,000 300,000 145,000 445,000
2.010 6.67 49,751 331,841 160,390 492,231
2.100 6.67 47,619 317,619 153,516 471,135
2.200 6.67 45,455 303,182 146,538 449,720
2.230 7.50 44,843 336,323 162,556 498,879
2.300 7.50 43,478 326,087 157,609 483,696
2.400 7.50 41,667 312,500 151,042 463,542
2.500 7.50 40,000 300,000 145,000 445,000
2.501 8.57 39,984 342,663 165,620 508,283
2.600 8.57 38,462 329,615 159,314 488,929
2.700 8.57 37,037 317,407 153,414 470,821
2.800 8.57 35,714 306,071 147,935 454,006
2.860 10.00 34,965 349,650 168,998 518,648
2.900 10.00 34,483 344,828 166,667 511,494
3.000 10.00 33,333 333,333 161,111 494,444
3.100 10.00 32,258 322,581 155,914 478,495
3.200 10.00 31,250 312,500 151,042 463,542
3.300 10.00 30,303 303,030 146,465 449,495
3.340 12.00 29,940 359,281 173,653 532,934
3.500 12.00 28,571 342,857 165,714 508,571
3.700 12.00 27,027 324,324 156,757 481,081
3.900 12.00 25,641 307,692 148,718 456,410
4.000 12.00 25,000 300,000 145,000 445,000
4.010 15.00 24,938 374,065 180,798 554,863
4.100 15.00 24,390 365,854 176,829 542,683
4.200 15.00 23,810 357,143 172,619 529,762
4.300 15.00 23,256 348,837 168,605 517,442




and here is summary of above table:
- the difference between each break point is less than 1%
- you will get max dps at break point, BUT you will lost dps if too far above/or below break point
- you may lost up to 10% dps(eg, 2.2aps = 449kdps, 2.23 = 498kdps, 2.5 = 445kdps )

(dps on this table are copy from above)
aps dps diff in dps
1.01 464,092
1.12 467,515 0.74%
1.177 472,600 1.09%
1.251 474,287 0.36%
1.34 474,888 0.13%
1.43 479,231 0.91%
1.54 481,602 0.49%
1.67 484,082 0.51%
1.82 489,011 1.02%
2.01 492,231 0.66%
2.23 498,879 1.35%
2.51 508,293 1.89%
2.86 518,649 2.04%
3.34 532,934 2.75%
4.01 554,863 4.11%

Edited by huanAK#6843 on 1/10/2013 9:46 PM PST
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Hey, Nubtro, quick question....I have been advocating the use of Twister's spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=0

and was given the understanding that the IAS numbers in red were how much IAS you needed from gear ONLY to attain a certain breakpoint and that dual wield bonus (15%) was already factored into those numbers and was not to be used as part of that equation.

If you could please clarify this for me that would be great.


Wow the spreadsheet´s been messed up by its users...anyway as it states "ASI" needed it´s the affix on gear, the answer is yes DW bonus is factored in if 2 weapons are chosen.
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01/11/2013 01:25 AMPosted by Nubtro
Wow the spreadsheet´s been messed up by its users...anyway as it states "ASI" needed it´s the affix on gear, the answer is yes DW bonus is factored in if 2 weapons are chosen.


Thanks a lot for the quick response.
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How do you determine what breakpoint your in or damage if one hand is faster than the other. Say you have one hand swing at 3.3 and the other at 2.86. Then what happens?
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01/11/2013 10:50 AMPosted by BigBaller
How do you determine what breakpoint your in or damage if one hand is faster than the other. Say you have one hand swing at 3.3 and the other at 2.86. Then what happens?

Reading the first post first might help.

WW alternates between weapons for damage, but ticks at the frequency (and fury cost) of the weapon you were about to swing with before clicking and holding down WW. This stays as long as you channel the skill.

RLTW only uses the main hand weapon for damage and initially ticks at the frequency of the weapon you swung with last before clicking Sprint. But WW alternates between weapons which might change the "weapon swung with last" the next time you click Sprint so it´s not possible to purposely choose the RLTW tick frequency while channeling WW.

As for determining breakpoints, just calc the correct aps and find your tick frequency in the chart.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 1/11/2013 1:25 PM PST
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amazing work!!!
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01/11/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Nubtro
How do you determine what breakpoint your in or damage if one hand is faster than the other. Say you have one hand swing at 3.3 and the other at 2.86. Then what happens?

Reading the first post first might help.

WW alternates between weapons for damage, but ticks at the frequency (and fury cost) of the weapon you were about to swing with before clicking and holding down WW. This stays as long as you channel the skill.

RLTW only uses the main hand weapon for damage and initially ticks at the frequency of the weapon you swung with last before clicking Sprint. But WW alternates between weapons which might change the "weapon swung with last" the next time you click Sprint so it´s not possible to purposely choose the RLTW tick frequency while channeling WW.

As for determining breakpoints, just calc the correct aps and find your tick frequency in the chart.


Ok, Thanks for the response. So technically could try keep track of which hand is about to swing in order you to maximize tick rates. However, from what I gather most likely its best to try and get both weapons in same range because trying to keep track of swings is just not realistic in the heat of battle.
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Excellent thread thank you for taking the time to put all this together.
Edited by Apolyon#1834 on 1/12/2013 4:58 PM PST
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Confused...

If i have 4 attack speed per second, does that mean that each of my nado's do 45 ticks? The frame length and tick frequency confuses me.
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A simplified damage formula (per tick) = 0.2 * (base weapon damage) * (1 + strength/100) * (1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100). A critical hit then multiplies the result by (1 + total critical hit damage/100).


Hey Nubtro, got some questions for you about this formula.

1. How does the "(1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100)" work exactly? Is average damage from jewelry supposed to be in here or added to base weapon damage? What about %elemental damage modifiers from items like SoJ? If jewelry average damage is multiplicative instead of additive, it could be a significant source of damage!

2. What about ruby gems in the MH weapon? Added to base weapon damage or to damage bonuses?

Thanks for doing all of the research and testing for the rest of us!
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Confused...

If i have 4 attack speed per second, does that mean that each of my nado's do 45 ticks? The frame length and tick frequency confuses me.


To be perfectly accurate, that breakpoint is >4 attacks per second but yeah, the tornado you spawn will tick (hit) 45 times over its 3 second duration, so 15 times per second. That´s a bit of an extreme example, because the 45 tick breakpoint is the highest possible in the current game.

If frame length confuses you, just work with tick frequency (how many ticks per second) and total ticks (how many ticks over the whole fixed 3 second duration of RLTW). For WW, just apply the tick frequency because its duration depends on how long you hold down the WW button.

01/15/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Trenfen
A simplified damage formula (per tick) = 0.2 * (base weapon damage) * (1 + strength/100) * (1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100). A critical hit then multiplies the result by (1 + total critical hit damage/100).


Hey Nubtro, got some questions for you about this formula.

1. How does the "(1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100)" work exactly? Is average damage from jewelry supposed to be in here or added to base weapon damage? What about %elemental damage modifiers from items like SoJ? If jewelry average damage is multiplicative instead of additive, it could be a significant source of damage!

2. What about ruby gems in the MH weapon? Added to base weapon damage or to damage bonuses?

Thanks for doing all of the research and testing for the rest of us!


http://www.diablofans.com/topic/65055-d3rawr-online-diablo3-dps-ehp-calculator-comparison-tool/#entry1081786

The above is a post that should give you all the answers about the damage formula. I´ve researched pretty much all the possible modifiers.

MIN DAMAGE = ((((A + B ) * (1 + C / 100) + D) * E) + J) * F * G * H * I * K * L * M

A: base minimum (physical) weapon damage

B: sum of +minimum (physical) damage on the weapon itself, including ruby in weapon

C: +% (physical) damage on the weapon itself
- example: "+35% damage"

D: sum of +minimum (physical) damage on gear (jewelry)

E: adds % to elemental damage bonus = 1 + (sum of "adds % to elemental damage" bonuses / 100)
- yes this affix depends on the physical damage of the weapon ("A" to "D") not on the elemental damage of the weapon ("J")

--

F: primary attribute bonus = 1 + (primary stat / 100)
- primary attributes are strength (Barb), dexterity (DH, Monk) and intelligence (WD, Wiz)

G: elite bonus modifier = 1 + ((1 - (1 - bonus#1/100) * (1 - bonus#2/100) * (1 - bonus#3/100) ...)
- the weapon/gear affix "increases damage against elites by x%"
- diminishing returns

H: demon bonus modifier = 1 + ((1 - (1 - bonus#1/100) * (1 - bonus#2/100) * (1 - bonus#3/100) ...)
- this is the gear affix "+x% damage to demons"
- diminishing returns

I: "damage increased by skills" modifier = 1 + (sum of skill bonuses / 100)
- battle rage, insanity
- maniac, punish stacks
- brawler, berserker rage, sword/dagger weapons master
- frenzy/bash/cleave belts and jewelry, three hundredth spear (ancient spear, weapon throw)

---

J: +minimum elemental damage on the weapon itself
- example the "1" in "+1-3 fire damage")

K: skill damage modifier = (skill tick damage / 100)
- this means how much damage a skill does per hit (tick), for example normal bash = 165% (1.65 modifier), whirlwind = 145%/3
- important note: rune effects that boost damage of skills like WW Volcanic Eruption are calculated as base skill damage times their bonus, for example WW Volcanic Eruption does 30% more damage than the other runes, so 1.45*1.3/3, keep that in mind (don´t use the tooltip values)

L: "elemental skills deal x% more damage modifier" = 1 + (sum of affixes / 100)
- a separate modifier, not in the damage increased by skills group ("I")
- example 2 x tal rasha fire skill bonus (3%) and burning axe of sankis fire skill bonus (15%) result in a 1.18 (+18%) modifier

M: critical hit damage modifier = (1 + critical hit damage / 100)

Apply the formula accordingly to calculate max damage.


Ruby is "B", Jewelry is "D", adds to x% elemental damage is "E". Damage increased by skills is "I" - all Barb skills are here, including +% skill damage gear (like a frenzy belt) BUT no escape +10% (*1.1) modifier is a separate multiplicative modifier (not included in the above formula because I researched it later).

So it´s base weapon damage + min/max damage on the weapon itself (including ruby), then multiplied by the +x% damage weapon affix, afterwards you add +min/max damage from jewelry = this result is used for calculating the "adds x% to elemental damage" affix etc.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 1/16/2013 1:18 AM PST
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Hey, Nubtro, quick question....I have been advocating the use of Twister's spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=0

and was given the understanding that the IAS numbers in red were how much IAS you needed from gear ONLY to attain a certain breakpoint and that dual wield bonus (15%) was already factored into those numbers and was not to be used as part of that equation.

If you could please clarify this for me that would be great.


Wow the spreadsheet´s been messed up by its users...anyway as it states "ASI" needed it´s the affix on gear, the answer is yes DW bonus is factored in if 2 weapons are chosen.


Hi Nubtro,

Just wanted to clarify something about the spreadsheet. It shows that my MH ticks is 18 and my OH ticks is 23. My barb has attack speed increase from gear at +68% http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MasterPUA-6728/hero/183095

Does this mean that I'm ticking at MH 30 and OH 36 since the table column ASI Needed with WOTB puts me at 30 and 36 ticks respectively for the extra 68% attack speed?

Thanks in advance bro. I just want to make sure I'm interpreting the data right.
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Hi Nubtro,

Just wanted to clarify something about the spreadsheet. It shows that my MH ticks is 18 and my OH ticks is 23. My barb has attack speed increase from gear at +68% http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MasterPUA-6728/hero/183095

Does this mean that I'm ticking at MH 30 and OH 36 since the table column ASI Needed with WOTB puts me at 30 and 36 ticks respectively for the extra 68% attack speed?

Thanks in advance bro. I just want to make sure I'm interpreting the data right.


Character page also includes the DW bonus. Checked your gear, you have +53% ASI.

MH aps normal 1.3 * 1.09 = 1.417 * (1 + 0.53 + 0.15) = 2.38056 aps = 23 ticks
OH aps 1.5 * 1.06 = 1.59 * (1 + 0.53 + 0.15) = 2.6712 aps = 26 ticks

MH aps WotB 1.417 * (1 + 0.53 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 2.73481 aps = 26 ticks
OH aps WotB 1.59 * (1 + 0.53 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 3.0687 aps = 30 ticks

From what you wrote, you´re looking at the wrong row, because the spreadsheet already includes the DW bonus and considers "ASI" as gear bonueses only (in your case, that´s 53%). So keep that in mind everyone, it´s always best to manually sum up the ASI gear bonuses by checking your gear just to make sure you use the correct value.
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