Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

03/05/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Spacemagic
Could anyone tell me how much more ias i need for my OH to hit next breakpoint?? I think im at 26/23 right now...


The +0.24 aps from your EF is added to your mace as well...

MH aps 1.50 with WotB up is 2.49 = 23 ticks
OH aps 1.44 with WotB up is 2.3904 = 23 ticks

That´s without Enchantress. I don´t like to include her because you only get the bonus when she´s alive. You´re at 26/23 if she´s alive. You need 8% gear IAS so that your EF achieves the 26 tick breakpoint, 5% if your Enchantress is alive.

Sorry had to recalc, had the wrong gear IAS.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 3/5/2013 12:43 PM PST
Reply Quote
Thanks! Appreciate it! So that would be the 8/8/9/9 then.
Reply Quote
Hello Nubtro,

Read through your post, and magnificent work indeed! I have questions need your clarification, sorry if you already answered:

1. From your statement, Tornado do 20% base damage of main weapon. Does it mean that other DPS from gear doesn't have any impact on Tornado damage (like cd/cc/ias/strengt on hear)...? if it is the case then player just stick all vit then when using tornados.
I also quote here your 2 statement make me confuse:

a. Tornadoes do 20% main hand base weapon damage per tick. Base weapon damage is the value below DPS in the weapon window. A simplified damage formula (per tick) = 0.2 * (base weapon damage) * (1 + strength/100) * (1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100). A critical hit then multiplies the result by (1 + total critical hit damage/100). To calculate your DPS, just multiply the damage per tick by the tick frequency according to the chart I provide below.

b. DPS: Damage per second (dps) of 1 tornado = (60 / frame length) * 20% weapon damage

2. WW, same like above question => will it only take the damage of mh/oh only?

3. You said also number of tick depend on the aps of last weapon swung. How about the aps from gears? will it impact the number of tick? and how is the calculation then? In the case, it count all the aps from gears (which is make sense to me) => i think we shouldn't care about aps of weapon oh/mh => just care about the total aps from everything (gear, weapons,..)
- Same like question for WW.

Waiting for your comment then.
Reply Quote
Hello Nubtro,
Read through your post, and magnificent work indeed! I have questions need your clarification, sorry if you already answered:
1. From your statement, Tornado do 20% base damage of main weapon. Does it mean that other DPS from gear doesn't have any impact on Tornado damage (like cd/cc/ias/strengt on hear)...? if it is the case then player just stick all vit then when using tornados.
I also quote here your 2 statement make me confuse:
a. Tornadoes do 20% main hand base weapon damage per tick. Base weapon damage is the value below DPS in the weapon window. A simplified damage formula (per tick) = 0.2 * (base weapon damage) * (1 + strength/100) * (1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100). A critical hit then multiplies the result by (1 + total critical hit damage/100). To calculate your DPS, just multiply the damage per tick by the tick frequency according to the chart I provide below.

b. DPS: Damage per second (dps) of 1 tornado = (60 / frame length) * 20% weapon damage

2. WW, same like above question => will it only take the damage of mh/oh only?

1.a. It´s clear to me from what you wrote, that you don´t fully understand how damage is calculated in this game and I´m not sure if I can help you with that. Let´s try...

http://www.diablofans.com/topic/65055-d3rawr-online-diablo3-dps-ehp-calculator-comparison-tool/#entry1081786

The above is a D3 damage formula post. It´s a bit outdated, because in 1.0.7 the position of rubies in the weapon damage calculation has been changed, so I´ll modify the formula here.

((((A + B ) * (1 + C / 100) + D) * E) + J) * F * G * H * I * K * L * M

A is base weapon damage (check the battle.net game guide, white weapon damage range below DPS is different for each weapon type)
B is +mininimum +maximum on the weapon itself (physical, black damage)
-> the game adds minimum damage first and checks if new minimum > base maximum
- if not, it uses the base maximum value and adds +maximum to it as usual
- if yes, it adds 1 to the new minimum damage and uses that value as the new base maximum damage and adds +maximum to it
C is "+x% damage" on the weapon
D is +min, +max or +min-max damage on jewelry
E is "adds x% to elemental damage" on certain legendaries (like SoJ)
J is +min-max elemental damage on the weapon (example "+233-566 fire damage")
F is the primary attribute (strength for Barbs) multiplier (1+ str / 100)
G is the damage vs elites bonus
H is the damage vs demons bonus
I is the "damage increased by skills" modifier
K is the actual skill damage - depending on which skill you use
L is the "elemental skills do x% more damage" bonus
M is the critical hit damage modifier (only applied if you roll a crit)

Rubies socketed in weapons pre 1.0.7 were calculated exactly as "B" so their minimum damage was before the game checked if min>max, now in 1.0.7 they´re positioned after the game checks if "min>max" a thus they´re no longer bugged like +minimum +maximum damage is.

Anyway, from the above list, those 20% (RLTW) that you mentioned are "K", how much damage the skill does per hit (tick). This means that it benefits from all damage modifiers in the formula. 20% for RLTW per tick compared to let´s say Frenzy (110%) is the difference between skills.

1.b So "K" determines how much damage a particular skill does. Now let´s talk about attack speed. It does NOT directly affect your damage calculation (how big the numbers above monster heads will be), it affects HOW FAST (frequent) your damage is applied.

Here´s where breakpoints come into play. RLTW applies the calculated damage value at a frequency that depends on your total weapon aps. There´s a difference between weapon aps and total weapon aps, but for the sake of calculating damage per second, you should only care about total weapon aps.

Examples of weapon aps and total weapon aps calculation.

An Echoing Fury, which is a mace (1H mace has 1.20 base aps), that has 9% IAS itself and also has the +0.24 attacks per second affix.

Weapon aps = 1.20 (base aps) * 1.09 (weapon IAS) + 0.24 (legendary affix) = 1.548 aps

This is weapon aps. If you equip 2 weapons, the "weapon aps" value is where they will differ. But now we want total weapon aps, here comes IAS on gear (beside weapons) and skill IAS into play.

Let´s say you dual wield (+15% IAS), have a 9% IAS ring, 8% IAS gloves and 9% IAS amulet and WotB is up (+25% IAS). You add the bonuses together for a total of 15+9+8+9+25 = 66% IAS (written as a bonus it is 1 + 66/100 = an 1.66 multiplier).

To get total weapon aps, you simply multiply "weapon aps" (1.548) by gear/skill IAS (1.66) = 2.56968 total weapon aps.

If you open your inventory details in the game, the game will show you the total weapon aps value as your aps (it´ll show you a rounded value - 2.57 aps). Note that you should always use the non-rounded value to determine breakpoints, but the rounded values are good enough unless you´re very close to a breakpoint, in which case it´s better to calculate the exact value than be sorry.

Now that you know your total aps for that weapon, you check the chart in the first post and find a corresponding tick frequency.

2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 fpt - 8.57 tps - 171.43% dps - 26 ticks - 520% dmg

The above means, that if your total weapon aps is between 2.5001 and 2.85714
-> each tick will take 7 frames (one frame = 1/60 of a second, game runs at 60 frames per second), this value is called tick frame length
-> on average, you´ll get 8.57 ticks per second (60/7), this value is called tick frequency
-> your RLTW will tick a total 26 times in 3 seconds, this value is called total number of ticks

Damage per second = you take the result of the whole damage calculation (A to M) and multiply that value by your tick frequency (8.57).

What I did in the chart (171.43% dps) is i simplified the whole damage formula and fused the "20%" with the "8.57" so that incase you want to calculate your total damage output per second, instead of 20% as "K" you´d apply 171.43% as "K", which already includes aps.

Otherwise, you´d simply apply 20% as "K" and after calculating the result of the whole A->M equation, to get damage per second, you´d multiply A->M result by tick frequency.

The last value 520% is just the result of skill damage (20%) times number of total ticks (26) over three seconds.


3. You said also number of tick depend on the aps of last weapon swung. How about the aps from gears? will it impact the number of tick? and how is the calculation then? In the case, it count all the aps from gears (which is make sense to me) => i think we shouldn't care about aps of weapon oh/mh => just care about the total aps from everything (gear, weapons,..)
- Same like question for WW.

Waiting for your comment then.

When I talk about aps I mean the total aps of that weapon, the calculation is above. If you don´t feel like calculating your total aps, just check your inventory details - the values shown is total aps for that weapon. If you dual wield, try swinging and the displayed value will switch to the total aps of the second weapon.

You´re right about caring about the total aps from everything, but if you dual wield, you have to apply a separate total aps of MH and separate total aps of OH because the game doesn´t use an average total aps of the two weapons, it applies either MH total aps or OH total aps in case of WW and RLTW.

That´s why I had to post about "last weapon swung" and stuff.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 3/6/2013 2:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
Thanks for your explanation then, it's now clear for me that tornados us the total damage (including 20% mh damage) instead of only mh damage.


You´re right about caring about the total aps from everything, but if you dual wield, you have to apply a separate total aps of MH and separate total aps of OH because the game doesn´t use an average total aps of the two weapons, it applies either MH total aps or OH total aps in case of WW and RLTW.
That´s why I had to post about "last weapon swung" and stuff.


For this part, if i'm not mistaken, what you mean is: in order to calculate the correct tick output for WW and tornados, we should not take total aps and calculate the tick. But instead calculate the tick for each mh/oh weapon base on theirs aps, and sum both.
Reply Quote
What are the breakpoints for an echo + dagger combo assuming I'm going to be perma wrath.

Is it good or should I just do echo + another axe/mace.
Reply Quote
What are the breakpoints for an echo + dagger combo assuming I'm going to be perma wrath.
Is it good or should I just do echo + another axe/mace.


If you want to use a dagger, get at least a 1.43 EF and a 11% IAS dagger. With four 9% IAS slots you´ll get to 26 & 33 ticks. With the same gear IAS (36%) and at least 1.43 aps EF with plus a sword, you´ll get 26 & 30 ticks.

Don´t bother with 30 ticks on EF, you´d need 7 gear slots with IAS for that, not worth it in my opinion. People who use EF+mace/axe often stick to the same breakpoint for both weapons (26 ticks).
Reply Quote
Is there a conclusion to this ?
Trying to get and maximize attack speed on all slots lowers the dps (considering not everyone can simply get trifectas or crit mempos and be done with it ) .
People usually try to get the best dps and don't care about break points as opposed to having lower dps and achieving these break points which one is better have u measured this ?
Reply Quote
Can someone confirm this

With the enchantress buff to IAS its actually possible to hit the next BP on your MH(2.85) with 5 slots of IAS running an axe. The buff remains even after follower dies.
Reply Quote
Is there a conclusion to this ?
Trying to get and maximize attack speed on all slots lowers the dps (considering not everyone can simply get trifectas or crit mempos and be done with it ) .
People usually try to get the best dps and don't care about break points as opposed to having lower dps and achieving these break points which one is better have u measured this ?

Don´t know what people you´re talking about, I personally couldn´t care less if someone opens his inventory and it displays a higher damage value than I have (or diabloprogress unbuffed damage) or whatever.

The general consensus among efficient players is that they decide which breakpoint they want, get the least IAS needed for that particular breakpoint and afterwards focus on crit damage (crit chance should always be the #1 priority for Barbs) and average damage.

For example if I use the no generator WW+RLTW+OPKS+Rend build with a Skorn, I test what breakpoint allows me to keep up WotB easily (17 ticks), so now I have 9+9+9+8+8 IAS on gear for 1.43 aps incase WotB runs out (1.42858 aps breakpoint) and 1.68 aps with WotB up (1.66667 aps breakpoint).

Here, the next breakpoint (1.81819 aps) would require 14% more IAS (two more slots, 7 total) which would cost a fortune. Instead, I stick to 17 ticks and focus on crit damage. Any more IAS (1-13%) would be simply stupid, as it would in no way boost my damage output.

WW/RLTW have the same breakpoints, Rend doesn´t scale with aps, OPKS relies on WW/RTLW crits so again, absolutely 0 benefit from 1-13% more IAS. The inventory damage value would rise, but I would get no actual damage increase in the game (the displayed value is misleading).

That being said, if people have the money/gold, no problem if they buy the most expensive items with all the damage bonuses there are, but that doesn´t mean they gear up efficiently.

Can someone confirm this

With the enchantress buff to IAS its actually possible to hit the next BP on your MH(2.85) with 5 slots of IAS running an axe. The buff remains even after follower dies.

1. The last time I checked, when the Enchantress dies, you lose her +0.03 aps bonus.
2. An axe (1.30 aps) with Ench. bonus (+0.03 aps) needs 75% gear IAS to achieve the 30 ticks breakpoint. That´s 75/9 = 8.33 = nine IAS slots.

Not sure what you´re talking about. Maybe you meant with an EF as the second weapon?

1.30 aps axe + 0.03 Ench
+0.22 aps EF = 45% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.23 aps EF = 44% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.24 aps EF = 42% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.25 aps EF = 41% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)

Note that if you have a +0.25 aps EF and 45% IAS on gear, your axe achieves the 30 tick breakpoint even without the Enchantress. Maybe you meant this?
Reply Quote
Youre right. Buff doesn't apply when she's dead.

Strange though as the armor buff works
Reply Quote
Is there a conclusion to this ?
Trying to get and maximize attack speed on all slots lowers the dps (considering not everyone can simply get trifectas or crit mempos and be done with it ) .
People usually try to get the best dps and don't care about break points as opposed to having lower dps and achieving these break points which one is better have u measured this ?

Don´t know what people you´re talking about, I personally couldn´t care less if someone opens his inventory and it displays a higher damage value than I have (or diabloprogress unbuffed damage) or whatever.

The general consensus among efficient players is that they decide which breakpoint they want, get the least IAS needed for that particular breakpoint and afterwards focus on crit damage (crit chance should always be the #1 priority for Barbs) and average damage.

For example if I use the no generator WW+RLTW+OPKS+Rend build with a Skorn, I test what breakpoint allows me to keep up WotB easily (17 ticks), so now I have 9+9+9+8+8 IAS on gear for 1.43 aps incase WotB runs out (1.42858 aps breakpoint) and 1.68 aps with WotB up (1.66667 aps breakpoint).

Here, the next breakpoint (1.81819 aps) would require 14% more IAS (two more slots, 7 total) which would cost a fortune. Instead, I stick to 17 ticks and focus on crit damage. Any more IAS (1-13%) would be simply stupid, as it would in no way boost my damage output.

WW/RLTW have the same breakpoints, Rend doesn´t scale with aps, OPKS relies on WW/RTLW crits so again, absolutely 0 benefit from 1-13% more IAS. The inventory damage value would rise, but I would get no actual damage increase in the game (the displayed value is misleading).

That being said, if people have the money/gold, no problem if they buy the most expensive items with all the damage bonuses there are, but that doesn´t mean they gear up efficiently.

Can someone confirm this

With the enchantress buff to IAS its actually possible to hit the next BP on your MH(2.85) with 5 slots of IAS running an axe. The buff remains even after follower dies.

1. The last time I checked, when the Enchantress dies, you lose her +0.03 aps bonus.
2. An axe (1.30 aps) with Ench. bonus (+0.03 aps) needs 75% gear IAS to achieve the 30 ticks breakpoint. That´s 75/9 = 8.33 = nine IAS slots.

Not sure what you´re talking about. Maybe you meant with an EF as the second weapon?

1.30 aps axe + 0.03 Ench
+0.22 aps EF = 45% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.23 aps EF = 44% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.24 aps EF = 42% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)
+0.25 aps EF = 41% IAS on gear needed (5 slots)

Note that if you have a +0.25 aps EF and 45% IAS on gear, your axe achieves the 30 tick breakpoint even without the Enchantress. Maybe you meant this?


people who don't know about your research.
so the utility of the breakpoints is simply to gear efficiently as you are saying for example don't get more ias if you don't reach the next breakpoint gotcha.
and the main focus is still crit chance and ias is not a vital stat as it is for example for cm wizards to freeze properly but of course more ias is always helpful if i understand corectly
Reply Quote
Hi Nubtro, I've been working on my spreadsheet again now I know more and can calculate to accurately to 0.01 dps thanks to the Monk dps threads you also posted in.

However, this online spreadsheet (http://www.d3rawr.com/d) you mentioned was driving me nuts when I tried to use it to check. Overall dps is exactly the same (rounded to whole number as shown online), but I noticed differences in skill specific dmg.

In short, for sprint/ww I calculate, as per your words, my ticks per 3s as follows:
ROUNDUP((180/ROUNDDOWN((20/B3);0));0)

So in the case that I have 8.57 tps, this should lead to 26 tp3s, but the sheet calculates with 25.71 (etc) rather than 26. When I use the non-rounded number, the sheet matches my calculation exactly. On my MH, it works out to a whole number without rounding, so there there's no issue and it's accurate as well.

Just so you know :).
Reply Quote
Hi Nubtro, I've been working on my spreadsheet again now I know more and can calculate to accurately to 0.01 dps thanks to the Monk dps threads you also posted in.

However, this online spreadsheet (http://www.d3rawr.com/d) you mentioned was driving me nuts when I tried to use it to check. Overall dps is exactly the same (rounded to whole number as shown online), but I noticed differences in skill specific dmg.

In short, for sprint/ww I calculate, as per your words, my ticks per 3s as follows:
ROUNDUP((180/ROUNDDOWN((20/B3);0));0)

So in the case that I have 8.57 tps, this should lead to 26 tp3s, but the sheet calculates with 25.71 (etc) rather than 26. When I use the non-rounded number, the sheet matches my calculation exactly. On my MH, it works out to a whole number without rounding, so there there's no issue and it's accurate as well.
Just so you know :).


Your formula is correct but you have to take into account that the 8.57 value is rounded, I couldn´t post the whole number as it would´ve taken up too much room and I wanted the data to be listed in a table, which is easier to comprehend. The actual value is 8.571428 repeating.

Anyway, you should not calculate from the tps value, but like in your formula, simply input B3 (which is non rounded APS). Then you get the accurate results. But you know that.

The reason why you see differences in skill damage calculation on d3rawr is the fact that he applies the aps scaling of each skill as I sent the researched data to him some time ago. One or two skills might be off by 1 frame as I´ve adjusted the formula after retesting but it should be pretty close to the real values in the game. That being said, the game´s pretty inconsistent with frame length and it jumps around depending on your framerate (which depends on connection and graphics performance, I think).

Here´s the list:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497?page=13#255

Have fun.
Reply Quote
@Nubtro

Great posting!!

I am just wondering if you can take a look at my profile and let me know what is my next BP is?
I am trying to get more DPS and wondering if i can get rid of IAS glove and go with one with more STR one...
Btw, i dont use Enchantress.

Thanks in advance!!!!
Reply Quote
Thanks for the reply :). True, I do that (small oops with B3 in there, hehe), but I specifically meant that the online sheet just doesn't appear to do the "roundup" to get to 26 tp3s. If I omit that roundup, I get the exact same result the sheet does.

As for the other skills, I have issues reproducing them, indeed :(. I did find your list with frames for various skills, but I'm still quite a bit off. If it's 57 frames per animation, you can consider the dps to be a factor 60/57 higher, correct?

Actually, I still don't understand why sometimes it's spot on and sometimes it's a few hundred dps off, even on WW/RtlW.
Reply Quote
@Nubtro
Great posting!!
I am just wondering if you can take a look at my profile and let me know what is my next BP is?
I am trying to get more DPS and wondering if i can get rid of IAS glove and go with one with more STR one...
Btw, i dont use Enchantress.
Thanks in advance!!!!


Sick gear you have there, dude. Anyway, I see 46% IAS on your gear, an EF OH (1.20 +0.25 aps) and an axe MH (1.30 +0.25 aps from EF).

With WotB up (+25%) and with the dual-wielding bonus (+15%), you currently hit
MH = 2.883 aps = 30 ticks
OH = 2.697 aps = 26 ticks

Your next MH breakpoint is 3.33334 aps which would require 30% more IAS on gear. Your next OH breakpoint is 20/7 aps = 2.857142 repeating, which would require 12% more IAS on gear. You can only drop 1% IAS and not lose the MH breakpoint :/

If you don´t care about keeping the 30 tick breakpoint with the axe, you could stick to 26 ticks on both weapons which would give you the option to drop 13% IAS on gear.

If I may give you another tip. Try the no generator build with Rend instead of the Bash you´re using and change OPCA to OP killing spree. Maybe you won´t even need to go Rend Blood Lust in MP10 with your 5.7% LS, use Lacerate then. These two changes should noticeably increase your overall damage output. But beware that Rend will always uses the MH for damage so your WW afterwards will always tick at the OH (in your case slower) frequency.

The choice is yours. 30% more IAS is pretty much impossible. 12% more IAS is doable by upgrading some of your 8% IAS slots and getting an IAS amulet. Losing 13% is the easiest, if you had at least one 9% IAS slot instead of one of the 8% ones, you could potentially drop 2 slots (you only need 33% IAS on gear for 26 ticks on both weapons which means 3x8 + 1x9) -> you´d then drop one 8% slot and the 6% slot (ring).
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 3/12/2013 2:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Youre right. Buff doesn't apply when she's dead.

Strange though as the armor buff works


This is odd. If i'm not mistaken, the crit buff from the scoundrel sticks around even after he dies.

Is this an enchantress bug or working as intended?
Reply Quote
Tested some more and it seems that instead of using 1.45/3 for WW dmg, the sheet uses 0.4833. Guess he just rounds off at all sorts of points (except where he really needs to, apparently :P) that causes the discrepancies. Don't know whether that counts for all of them, but it'll be way too much of a headache to test all options.

If possible I'd like to know how you apply those frame things, though :). I suppose that it's really just 60 frames = 1sec so dps goes up proportionally when it takes fewer than 60 frames to complete the animation.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]