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Reread the first post - the following part:
4. When dual-wielding, tornado tick frequency depends on the attacks per second (aps) of the last weapon swung before using Sprint. Additional info (February 2nd, 2013): Sprint frequency while WW is channeled.
Both WW and RLTW depend on the aps of one of the weapons while dual wielding. The only way to conciously apply the frequency of the OH for WW is by using a skill that reverts back to MH (like Rend).
If you start channeling WW after using Rend, WW will always tick at the OH frequency. It´s not really possible to do the same with RLTW. Yes the initial Sprint after Rend (if you click it before WW) will have the MH frequency, but after you begin channeling WW it´s impossible to know what your subsequent RLTW frequency will be (which hand).
First off great work by Nubtro...really outstanding thread.
I was hoping you could help me decide where to go with my character. I switched recently from a DH to a WW/HoTA barb and have read your thread as well as numerous others on the topic. You can see my gear in my profile as well as my current build. I'm still deciding which I like better between no generator with using overpower/killing spree or using bash/punish.
My question relates to my gear. Using d3rawr I'm at 672,000 tDPS and 408,000 EHP which is fine on MP 7 and 8 but I'm looking to get to MP10 farming. My next breakpoint w/o WoTB up is 17% more IAS. I have about 1 billion gold to spend right now and am trying to figure out which slot to spend it on.
Here's my plan:
Ditch WH for IK belt for the LS and survivability. I can then ditch IK gloves for a better crafted rare with the trifeca.This will give me 6% LS and I can ditch bloodthirst for brawler or animosity. I can then upgrade my rings and hopefully make the next IAS breakpoint. I think this will give me a serious DPS and survivability boost within my budget vs. going for better weapons. If I have any money left over I'd like to pick up a Mempo's w/ CC.
Thoughts? Thanks everyone!
Edited by KevinTSmith#1394 on 5/15/2013 9:00 AM PDT
I've not touched my Barb in like 2 months. I come back on and I can't keep my furry running any more with WW. Has there been a nerf since? You can check out my gear if that helps. I'm not a hardcore grinder but I like to stick to what works and requires little attention to maintain. I watch gear farming guides and AH guides and this is as far as I can go with the funds I have.
Hey again! i've followed your advice to get 43%+ IAS with 2H Skorn. Now i just kill the mobs even too quickly, so its is really hard to keep the WotB up in all locations.
So i've got another question. Is it real to get 20 ticks of tornadoes with +11% ASPD Skorn? Have you seen anyone trying it?
It seems like impossible... 81% IAS from other gear needed or like that. Sadly, gotta get my 18 ticks and be happy with that.
I really like the cheapness of Skorns! :D
Edited by Banana#1453 on 5/16/2013 4:00 PM PDT
There is only one person I know of who has hit 20 ticks, and that by having 71% IAS on gear and the remaining 4% needed from enchantress. Would not recommend attempting this unless you have tens of billions of gold.
17 ticks is more than enough to permawrath in most zones, You likely just need more practice.
62 Night Elf Death Knight
can someone just add me im looking for a ww build expert regarding the breaking points and all its a lot of info to get and i want to understand it more please add me maxim2686#1478 is my battle tag , so please add me and chat with me ingame will be more simple
I had a question about the build and how to optimize it (i asked it on the french forum but no one answered so i'm trying here)
SO, i have a question about the gems in the weapons.
The main damage from tornado build comes from the Main hand so i wondered why no one uses a ruby in their MH weapon ?
I tried to simulate a change from Marquise Emerald to Marquise Ruby on "d3up" and i had a gain of 1% for my DPS and 6% for tDPS.
6% for the tDPS, that's really impressive!
So, why no one puts a ruby in their MH weap ?
Thanks for the answers :).
The reason most are not putting rubies in their main hand is because most are running HOTA. Or if they using WW they are still running HOTA as a hybrid. The crit damage from a green gem in the main hand will give higher DPS for HOTA builds and hybrids.
However, if your going for pure WW build or you are heavily focusing on WW for the bulk of your damage then you should use Ruby in your main for increased tDPS. I use a Ruby. Its makes a significant difference in tDPS. Im a rarity now a days.........pure ww is dead and hota and hybrids are all the craze now a days. But most still can not hang with BigBaller!!!!
Edited by BigBaller#1318 on 6/26/2013 3:16 PM PDT
well, it's more like there are still thousands of noobs out there.
I recently checked out some barbarians on diabloprogress and there are several ppl using just the best gems for their weapons for their ingame damage.
It still hurts but there are people doing full WW spec socketing their main with an emerald and their offhand with a ruby....this makes me sad...
if only they would socketing full emeralds I would understand what you're saying...
edit: ...and those ppl are paragon 100 on hc ;)
Edited by Horrax#2520 on 7/1/2013 12:46 PM PDT
Oh god, oh god, why I didn't see it earlier.
This. Is. Crazy.
Thank you very much for that post, now i finally understand why everyone uses that build;
It is kinda sad how efficient it is, pretty much forcing everyone to use it with equip which goes over 2.5001 AS in WotB;
Thank you once again for all the info, not like I'll change my hybrit sprint-ww-rend build but i'll most definitely adjust it in order to gain few more ticks and bit more damage from WW.
I still have a few question about these 2 skills, I don't think I'm reading them off the OP.
RLTW cost the same per activation, if I active sprint when my buff is still on, does it overlap or continue the chain. If it overlap do I start from frame 1 and create new tornado or the number of tornadoes is not effected, as if the skill is a channeling skill so each of my tornado will be created at the same rate.
Does the creation (not the damage and its tick but the rate) of each tornado scale with aps or ms? Seems like you can only have 5 active ones from the read, please correct me if I'm wrong.
WW scale resource cost with aps, before 1.0.5 it is 16/3 per tick? So if I have 1.90 aps it will be roughly 2 attacks and cost 32 Fury. But now we have 10 and it scale with aps, so it will only be 19. I do not understand the difference between ticks and cost scaling with aps. I always thought all channeling skills scale its cost with aps, so if the cost is 16 and you aps was 2.86 then the cost will be 16 x 2.86 = 45.76. Now for WW if my aps is 2.86 will it equal = 28.6 Fury per second.
And I remember reading off the PTR that the cost of WW is 10 to start and 3 to channel. Does it still exist, or is it changed to the aps scaling.
someone please solve my confusion thanks.
I still have a few question about these 2 skills, I don't think I'm reading them off the OP.
Each new cast overwrites the previous one. The first tornado isn´t created right when you activate the skill but a short time afterwards but you´re required to run (actually sprint). Due to the overlap, if you do run but keep spamming Sprint before even the first tornado is created, you won´t spawn any.
This is why it´s important for you to learn a certain rhythm to periodically click Sprint and not spam it. If you need to dump fury (to refresh ToC) Battle Rage is better suited, although a double Sprint click is said to work OK as well.
Again, don´t mass spam RLTW or else you won´t create any tornadoes. Ideally you´d recast it close before it runs out. I forgot to add that once a tornado spawns, it will stay until it wears off.
2. Does the creation (not the damage and its tick but the rate) of each tornado scale with aps or ms? Seems like you can only have 5 active ones from the read, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The general consensus is "distance covered" the problem is that we don´t have data on how exactly the game measures this. We know that you only have a given time frame to spawn tornadoes and that you have to cover a distance to spawn each, which means movement speed improves your chances to spawn more.
Basically you get 4-5 tornadoes fully buffed. I believe getting 5 (or even 4 in certain situations) IMO is not really expectable because you should reactivate Sprint before it runs out and I don´t think you can get the timing right 20 times per minute. Also, against small hitbox single targets you´re spinning at a smaller radius which means less distance covered.
Unless we get information about the ingame ground grid and the measurments of each patch, we´ll never figure this one out exactly. So it´s up to the player to test and learn it in action how to spawn the most tornadoes.
3. WW scale resource cost with aps, before 1.0.5 it is 16/3 per tick? So if I have 1.90 aps it will be roughly 2 attacks and cost 32 Fury. But now we have 10 and it scale with aps, so it will only be 19. I do not understand the difference between ticks and cost scaling with aps. I always thought all channeling skills scale its cost with aps, so if the cost is 16 and you aps was 2.86 then the cost will be 16 x 2.86 = 45.76. Now for WW if my aps is 2.86 will it equal = 28.6 Fury per second.
Your formula (tooltip * aps) for resource cost per second isn´t exact because that´s not how the game works (due to breakpoints) but you may use it for cost estimates.
Whenever WW deals damage, on the same frame you get a fury globe response. The same applies to Strafe and Rapid Fire shots for example. But there´s other skills that have those two effects separated from each other and/or running at a different frequency formula. I won´t get into detail here to prevent further confusion.
Anyway, before the particular patch that changed the WW cost, it worked just like Strafe and Rapid Fire still do. Each damage tick (shot in case of Strafe and Rapid Fire) cost the same amount of resource, so you´d have a linear scaling with aps.
Linear means you have a set resource cost per tick and lose the amount of resource equal to number of damage ticks. In the case of WW it was 1/3 of tooltip cost each tick, so you´d lose 16/3 = 5.33 fury each damage tick. In case of Strafe, the cost is 1/4 of tooltip (1/2 for demolition) and the cost of each Rapid Fire shot is 1/6 of tooltip cost (1/3 for bombardment).
In your example you got the cost roughly right but the number of attacks is wrong. If you check the tables in the first post, at 1.90 aps the frame difference between two ticks is floor(20/1.9) = 10 frames so you get 60/10 = 6 damage ticks per second. If each tick cost 5.33 fury back then, you´d lose 6 * 5.33 = 31.98 fury per second.
What I call resource cost scaling with aps is that each WW damage tick costs less fury the more aps you have. I probably should have called it non-linear aps scaling or something.
It pains me to say this, but I wasn´t able to figure out the formula how aps directly affects the fury cost per tick since the change. There´s a post somewhere in this topic with the actual tick cost values at different aps values that I tested, it goes from 3.33 fury per tick at 1.00 aps to slightly above 1.50 fury per tick at the highest aps values I was able to test.
But how wield, Jay Wilson made the decision to completely change the skill without changing the others. Even though it cost lost "less per tick" with the higher the aps, you will still be using up more Fury compare to a slower weapon. As that is why I'm confused.
So basically I think we can see Whirl Wind as a dot skill and not a channeling skill anymore looking at its Fury cost.
Here are experimental fury cost values of chosen WW breakpoints. Note that Unforgiving was a bit in the way and behaving weirdly (frequent gains followed by longer periods of no gain) so the posted values might be off by a few decimals. I simply added expected fury gain from Unforgiving over the given time frame.
actual Whirlwind Fury cost (1.0.8)
For comparison, here are calculated values if the cost was linear (10/3 fury per tick no matter what aps) as it is the case of other similar skills:
WW fury cost if it was linear (like Strafe, Rapid Fire, Arcane Torrent)
Do you know the source to the 2.86740 breakpoint giving fewer ticks? or was it simply that you just counted fewer ticks to make up the average in that case (e.g. because the moster went out of the AOE)?
Oh, those were just my initial tests, afterwards I decided to count 50 ticks. Later I didn´t feel like repeating the test with more ticks but basically it doesn´t matter how many ticks there are the more I account for the more accurate the cost / tick value is.
You might as well ignore all columns beside the first and (fore)last in that table. Also, there were no monsters involved just WWing in an empty route to get a steadier framerate and the mouse cursor was on the fury globe.
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