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I just incorporated WW/RWLW again into my current set and it obviously doesn't feel OP as it did back in Vanilla but when I incorporate the rest of my skills set and gear I feel it's a solid skill setup (for my liking).
The procs from certain weapons goes very well with WW and if the rest of your gear allows it can provide solid dmg output.
I still don't know that it is viable for high T's but, lol, I don't know if there is any efficient gear/skill T6 setup yet.
In the RLTW table you have this note:
fpt: frames per tick = floor(20 / aps)
Where is the 20 coming from? The division that you are making is the following:
20 % 0.90909 = 22
0.90900 is the APS
What are the units of the 20? Is it frames per second?
First, I should have removed the <1.000 aps values from the table because the devs buffed base weapon attack speed of 2-handers at level 70, the lowest being 2H mace at 1.00 aps.
That being said, what you ask is 20 frames per tick (1 frame = 1/60 sec), tick being a moment in time when the game performs the following WW actions:
> damaging hit
> fury globe response
> life per hit heal
> rolls for proc, if applicable
WW/RLTW tick (hit) exactly 3 times per second at 1.00 aps so every 20 frames. That is the base value.
Through extensive testing I figured out that the game rounds the 20/aps calculation down to the nearest integer - that´s called "floor" if I´m not mistaken. Even if you are at let´s say 2.5002 aps, you´d still get 7 frames per tick and not 8 despite the result of 20/aps being 7.99936.
A very easy way to figure out the scaling of WW-type of channeling skills is to figure out the damage per tick value, which shows you how many hits the skill deals within 1 second as base value. Works for Strafe (15/aps, Demolition 30/aps), Rapid Fire (10/aps, Bombardment 20/aps), Arcane Torrent (20/aps) etc.
Hope that helped.
Yes WW is among the most cost efficient Barbarian skills. The calculation is not so straightforward because you have to do tick frequency and cost per tick separately.
Hurricane, Wind Shear, Blood Funnel
1.54 aps: 458.33% weapon damage per sec / 12.576 fury per sec = 36.44% per fury point
1.67 aps: 500% weapon damage per sec / 13.076 fury per sec = 38.24% per fury point
1.82 aps: 550% weapon damage per sec / 13.692 fury per sec = 40.17% per fury point
The Volcanic Eruption deals 1.182-times more damage at the same fury cost.
On the other hand, all other spammable main fury spenders (HotA, Slam, Spear) will outperform WW on its own in the dps department once you have enough fury generation to sustain them.
Birthright, Thunderstrike, Devil´s Anvil
1.54 aps: 867.26% weapon damage per sec / 32.42 fury per sec = 26.75% per fury point
1.67 aps: 944.12% weapon damage per sec / 35.29 fury per sec = 26.75% per fury point
1.82 aps: 1003.125% weapon damage per sec / 37.5 fury per sec = 26.75% per fury point
I was utilizing the breakpoints listed here
Let´s add Sprint RLTW to the mix (per tornado)
1.54 aps: 100% weapon damage per sec / (20/3) fury per sec = 15% per fury point
1.67 aps: 109.09% weapon damage per sec / (20/3) fury per sec = 16.36% per fury point
1.82 aps: 120% weapon damage per sec / (20/3) fury per sec = 18% per fury point
at 2.86 aps, RLTW deals more damage per point of fury spent than HotA per tornado
On paper, if you add the WW and RLTW numbers and assume 3 tornadoes hitting monsters, even the dps won´t be far behind the other skills. But this is theory, in actual combat what might happen is for example Wrenching Smash and HotA at 199 fury killing 10-25 monsters within 2 hits due to the increased HotA crit chance and Bloodshed and Area Damage where WW/RLTW would take a while longer.
Just compare your gains. First you calculate how much the breakpoint gives you, for example 1.82 vs 1.67 = 6 ticks per sec / 5.45455 ticks per sec = 1.1 (+10%)
and you do the same with lightning skill damage:
(1 + new sum of elemental bonuses) / (1 + current sum of elemental bonuses/100)
for example if you have 55% lightning skill bonus and add 15% = 1.7/1.55 = 1.0967 (+9.67%)
Both gains are fairly similar in this example. Note that the gain from WW breakpoints will get higher the higher the breakpoint is, on the other hand the gain from elemental skill bonus will get lower the more you stack.
But for endgame purposes, elemental skill damage bonus and WW breakpoints should not collide on items, except for amulets but elemental skill bonus has a higher value there than IAS (ideal 4 amulet primaries are elemental/strength/crit chance/crit damage).
Hope that helped a bit.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/22/2014 12:40 AM PDT
That does indeed help, but does that factor in the fact that more attacks per second increase the amount of procs you get from weapons?
Or does it even do that? Perhaps there is some sort of limiting cooldown.
A better question: Does increasing your lightning damage increase the damage of your weapon procs?
Thanks for your awesome barb research.
1. Weapon procs are very difficult to gauge when it comes to their actual damage output. Logically yes, higher breakpoint should produce more procs.
2. But, as far as I know, the majority of weapon procs have hidden internal cooldowns associated with them as a way of limiting or normalizing their power. For example if a proc is limited to 0.5 sec each, all breakpoints with a faster tickrate than that wouldn´t be able to break the internal limit.
The way I understood the blue post regarding recent Shard of Hate changes, WW was bypassing its internal cooldown while dual-wielding through the second weapon tick, not to mention it didn´t apply skill proc coefficients and as a result it was overperforming every other proc by a wide margin.
3. Last time I checked, both Thunderfury and Odyn Son procs didn´t scale with lightning skill damage bonuses, not sure why.
I don´t posess a Shard of Hate yet so I can´t test its behavior.
Weapon procs are still somewhat unknown territory, some don´t state how much damage they actually do (e.g. Odyn Son, Scourge), none tell us about their internal cooldowns and of course which ones scale with elemental skill damage bonuses. Also they need to drop/be gambled before you can test anything.
EDIT: Here are a couple of internal cooldown adjustments that made beta patch notes (note that the info may be outdated in case of undocumented changes)
Thunderfury proc cooldown is listed as 1 sec/aps there for example, which means it doesn´t benefit from the increased WW speed frequency. For example at the >1.81818 breakpoint you get 6 ticks per second (every 10 frames) but the internal cooldown is at 33 frames (60/1.82), so only every 4th WW tick may actually proc it at that frequency.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/22/2014 3:51 AM PDT
It will depends on your weapon proc. As far as i know SoH and Odynson benefit from +lightning damage, while TF doesn't as its proc isn't concidered as a skill unlike the two others.
That gain from Attack Speed is true if you were the same weapon type in both hands. Else the gain from going to the next threshold is roughtly divided by two (as you got no practical way to know which hand you're going to use on next WW and thus you can assume you'll use your newly reached threshold once out of two WW).
More hits per seconds means more chances to proc something, that's right. But you're trading that AS for Elemental damage, CC or CHD. And CC/CHD mean your proc will hit stronger. Unless you're at a very high CC (above 50%) you'll gain more from CC/CHD than from AS :/
As a rule of thumb I favorise Elemental damage, CC and CHD over AS. Then I deal with the AS I still have on my stuff after reforging and use Paragon points in AS to gain the next threshold for one of my hands.
Ideally two of the same weapons make things easier as you will have the same thresholds whichever hand is used and maximise the AS from equipment/Paragon points. Meaning that the SoH/TF combo would make much more use of your AS than any combo with Odynson in it as soon as you have some AS on your equipment.
It may be that over 50% CC and 500% CHD AS will be more interesting but that's more in Nubtro's department to prove it :D
Edit: I do believe that Odynson and SoH do use your Elemental bonus Nubtro. I'll test it again but for me TF hit for around 1.8-2M crit, Odynson/SoH are around 6-8M. My SoH got less base damage than my TF and the % taken is way less (200 for SoH vs 300 for TF) so the only explanation I see is Elemental damage working on OS/SoH and not on TF.
SoH/OS' effects are aknoledged as skills by the game, while TF isn't. Not really sure why it is so but OS/SoH effect have a unique name like any skill, while TF effect wording is a little different.
Edited by Migosha#2422 on 4/22/2014 3:50 AM PDT
I have also come to the conclusion that for most builds, after fury on crits was removed, attack speed is not very high on my priority list and the primary/secondary affix system puts it under even more pressure.
Amulet - elemental, strength, crit damage, crit chance
Gloves - strength, crit damage, crit chance, vitality/cooldown
SoJ - elemental, strength, elite, crit chance/crit damage
Grandeur - strength, crit damage, crit chance,
Unity - strength, elite, crit damage, crit chance
Less attack speed makes fury management easier in general. On the other hand, as was discussed in the previous posts, WW/Sprint are among the most cost efficient damage dealers we have, plus one has a specific non-linear cost formula and the other always costs the same, so they are an exception to the rule.
But overall, the gameplay shifted between vanilla and RoS and new popular stuff like LeapQuake and Boulder Toss don´t really benefit from increased attack speed at all or not very much.
As for weapon procs and elemental skill bonuses, I really dislike testing them because the devs may hotfix them whenever they want without having to to tell us as it´s hidden info for now anyway. Even the explanation of the SoH "fix" was very vague.
I´ll take a look at Odyn Son again when I´m online, it wouldn´t hurt if the effect tooltip at least told us how much weapon damage it deals. I mean Thunderfury´s is 5 lines long so "space" can´t be the issue :)
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/22/2014 4:28 AM PDT
Thanks for the info. I hate not understanding whats going on behind the scenes of a game, its nice to have people out there helping out.
Now if only I could get this amulet to roll better crit damage. 50 million gold and counting.
Edited by Murderin#1918 on 4/22/2014 5:59 AM PDT
That's pretty much what I go for, Elemental damage/Strength > CC/CHD (to keep a 1:10 ratio between them) > AS.
With the exception of the amulet where you can choose to take CHD instead of Elemental as CHD goes up to 100% on amulets. Which I didn't for the moment as i had a perfect 20% Elemental and I'm already at 1:10 CC/CHD ratio.
For each piece I'd say:
- Helm: Strength / CC / Slot / WW damge. With a special case for Andarielle Elem / Strength / CC / WW Damage. That means you need a perfect base item as you'll change the native AS by WW damage or CC.
- Shoulders: Strength / Vita / AR / %HP or CDR (Not all legendaries shoulders allow AR on them for what I saw).
- Gloves: Strength / Vita / CC / CHD.
- Chest: Strength / Vita / AR ( or melee reduction or reduction from elites, but seems hard to have it) / 3 slots.
- Bracers: Elemental / Strength / Vita / CC.
- Belt: Strength / Vita / AR / % HP. Or Thundergod with Elemental / Strength / Vita / AR.
- Legs: Strength / Vita / AR / 2 sockets.
- Feet: Strength / Vita / AR / WW damage.
- Amulet and rings : what you said.
That's for a generic legendaries setup. What I'm precisely aiming for would be:
- Helm: Andariel. Elemental / Strength / CC / WW damage.
- Shoulders: Auguild. Strength / Vita / AR (if possible on Auguild) / %HP (or zone damage).
- Gloves: nothing special, the 10 min on shrines maybe. Strength / Vita / CC / CHD.
- Chest: Auguild. Strength / Vita / AR (or -10% from elites if it can have it) / 3 Slots.
- Bracers: Reaper's Wraps. Elemental / Strength / Vita / CC.
- Belt: Thundergod's Vigor (Chilanik for speed runs). Elemental / Strength / Vita / AR.
- Legs: Mr Yan. Strength / Vita / AR / 2 Slots.
- Feet: Iceclimbers. Strength / Vita / AR / WW damage.
- Amulet: the fire or arcane immunity. Strength / AS / CC / CHD.
- Ring 1: SoJ (can be changed by Unity for higher torments). Elemental / Strength / CC (or CHD) / Elite damages.
- Ring 2: RoRG (for Auguild's second bonus). Strength / AS / CC / CHD.
- Weapons: two amongst SoH, TF and OS. I'd think about SoH/TF for the moment, because they are of the same weapon type and thus you can take full payback from the AS you have. OS got stronger damages from its proc than TF, but TF is good for survivability with the -30% enemy's attack speed and movement. For the stats: Strength / damage to elites (seems hard to get >.<) / Slot.
A Sun keeper may be a good choice too. In combo with OS then to have a mace in each hand for tresholds.
That's what I'm planing for right now. There are some part that can't be moved like pants, boots, head and bracers because the items have a special skill that makes them BiS. Some may prefer Strongarms bracers rather than reaper. But Reapers often come in handy for fury generation, there are lots of moments where I would be fury starved without them. And they allow me to use Sprint much more than a Strongarm user, which in term of time to finish a Rift/Prime is equal to a lot of dps gain.
A note on AR on shoulders. I made my 2 Aughuild pieces yesterday and as I already had a tip of it some days ago, AR on shoulders is really strange. I had AR on some of my tries, but on the ones I'm currently wearing I'm not allowed to reroll AR. I can see only two reasons to that (both having no logic): you're only allowed to have AR at first stats' pick during creation of the item or it's the +armor stat that 'block' AR, they would be exclusives. I had the same case with another kind of shoulders (the ones on my Crusaders) which got +armor and where i can't reroll for AR.
I´ve mentioned it in the gear tab of my spreadsheet but the following stats are in the same group and block each other from rolling on the same item:
1. All Resistance and Single Elemental Resistance;
2. Life per Hit and Life after each Kill;
3. Life per Fury Spent and Life Regeneration.
#1 is absolute nonsense but confirmed by TD to be their attempt at "fixing" the Monk passive One With Everything.
Basically it punishes 5/6 classes, because you can only Enchant 1 stat per item and only within the same category - so if a Single Resistance item drops/is gambled, you simply have to accept it won´t have All Resistance. This is currently one of the top3 itemization flaws in my book alongside mandatory sockets and the majority of 2-handed weapons.
All of this was pointed out constantly during beta and Druin got his question idea from me, so you can´t blame the players for not trying.
#2 existed in vanilla already but there was no primary/secondary stat system and nobody really cared much about LaeK with LoH and LS around. I don´t think there is a valid reason why these two couldn´t be on the same item.
#3 is only a relatively small issue that occurs on Mighty Belts because 2H mighty weapons don´t roll Regen plus the 990 max Regen roll on belts is outright inferior to the max 234 Fury Heal. But yeah, you have to reroll Regen if you want Fury Heal, so it´s good to know this information.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 4/23/2014 5:54 AM PDT
Another good post Nubtro. Completley forgot about this when I was trying to reroll my belt and wondering why AR wasn't an option...it's the single resist block. Completely agree that it's ridiculous and a stupd way to try and fix OWE. Surprised they haven't fixed that already TBH.
I see. If the points 2 and 3 don't disturb me much as those stats are never planned into my stuff, the #1 is a big flaw :(
Having a resist on secondary stats isn't a bad thing it helps with your overall resists, sad to have to do without it. But the main problem is of course that if you got a resist on secondary stat you're doomed and your shoulders will never be perfects ... Sad thing.
Moreover when my Auguild's shoulders were pretty nice in stats (high Str and Vita, 15% HP, 28K globes and a resist, definitly nice) and I'd liked not to have to redo another ones again and again until a miracle happens. There's already lot of randomness while crafting to have good stats and they add another parameter to it: you need them to have NO single resist... All that because Monks would have a high benefit from it? It doesn't bother them that Intel classes got 8-900 AR for free because 10 intel = 1 AR, but they screw 5 classes out of 6 because of monk's One With Everything. Sometimes they amaze me, really.
Well I guess I'll have to do Auguild's shoulders and chests again and again untill I got them as i want. Luckily i managed to have both with solid stats and nothing hurry with thoses.
What is the reasoning behind further nerfing the RLTW proc coefficient in 2.0? Devs just really hate the WW build huh? To my count they nerfed Thrive on Chaos, Into the Fray, Hurricane, and RLTW - basically every skill used in the WW engine.
Edited by PwrdOff#1551 on 4/23/2014 7:05 AM PDT
It's often the way Blizzard react when a build is overpowered/played by too much players. They'll look why it's so good and be sure to break every part of the mecanics used to be sure that you won't find a way to still run it. Common behavior in both WoW and Diablo.
You can still play WW right now, but you'll be performing less well than a HoTA/CoTA or EQ build with the corresponding sets (IK and WoTE). Somewhat because WW is pretty weak right now and also because there is no WW set. An EQ build without WoTE is prolly not really efficient either.
Then it's a question of feeling, if you like WW which is my case after 10-15 years of doing that, you can still play it but don't hope to go cleaning T6 like an EQ build, you'll be stuck in T2/3/4 for fast farming. You can only hope Blizzard would:
- Do a new set centered on WW (which will probably not happens for a long time as the expension just went out, they won't add items for a long time).
- Review WW and buff it a bit to be close in efficiency (DPS wise) to EQ with its set or HoTA. There was a blue post about that in our forum lately. Maybe I rode it wrongly, but what I got from that post was "WW is as we want it, it's a great aoe tool, bear with it". Even if Slam/HoTA/EQ are stronger than WW in both single target and AoE :(
I'm not a bing fan of RLTW, because you need to move for a certain distance for a tornado to pop (hard to talk about metrics in Diablo) and in most cases when you're WW'ing a pack or a boss you don't walk that straight line distance and end with no tornado appearing. It may be that I'm the one doing it wrong, but that's what I always encountered when playing that skill. The only way to pop a tornado was to move for a certain distance in straight line, resulting in going away from the main target(s) and then not having your WW hitting for one to three seconds, which is totally counter productive in the end. It works well if you encounter a very large pack but for most packs/bosses having tornadoes poping was pretty bad. Spinning around in short circles don't seems to pop tornadoes.
Once again it's what I encountered/felt while using it and maybe I'm simply doing it wrong.
I definitely agree with what you said. I feel that the problem with WW build in Vanilla is Perma wrath. They could just change the mechanic on Thrive on Chaos and leave the rest alone.
I too still us WW build, with a lightning barb. To be honest the thing i miss most about WW is the move speed from hurricane. If they change it back to 100% i would be happy as is.
I play HC mode so T2-T3 is good enough for me to play the build I enjoy. I would rather WW in T2-T3 than Hota in T4 any day.
A bigger issue now is that all of the proc rates have been tuned to make Perma Wrath very very hard to achieve. Now that perma wrath is no longer even possible in the game, they need to fix proc % ASAP.
Wizard has the same problem with their horrific proc % that is left over because of old Critical Mass builds.
BUILD IDEA: Maybe now the best build is to go physical element if you want to WW? Blood funnel WW or Dust Devils combined with RLTW may be the best bet for damage, not lightning?
Edited by PwrdOff#1551 on 4/23/2014 7:50 AM PDT
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