Get the Desktop App for Battle.net Now
- All your games in 1 place
- Log in once
- Automatic game updates
Eh? Math fail. 5 tornadoes deal 60% dps each per second, spread out over a number of ticks. That's at peak time; you still have to factor in the time it takes to ramp up to that dps. A 2h build will already have nuked the target(s) by the time sprint is going full tilt.
Edit: I see how you came to your conclusion now. The OP is incorrect; sprint's hits aren't 20% each. You cannot increase the average damage dealt by a tornado by increasing attack speed. You can only increase the number of ticks (and therefore life on hit or number of critical chances). This is easily tested by taking a big slow weapon and comparing against a fast weapon
Edited by xEvilReeperx#1724 on 7/16/2012 6:08 AM PDT
thx for the info OP
You can still run this build with sword and board. Its not as effective but i do it when im too lazy to switch to my duel wield
Edited by Skelz#1721 on 7/16/2012 6:26 AM PDT
ya i'll try to run as Sn'B bcuz having my stormshield gives me 7% more crit chance and dual wielding i would lose the crit chance but getting 900 loh and 180% crit dmg
Even then, 5x 60% weapon damage per second = 300, + whirlwind.
I still don't see any comparision to that, not just on paper, but from game tests with very good gear.
It would make sense with 2h comparison, if you could actually kill an elite pack, or substantially damage it before tornado version releases all tornados, but that is not really possible, even with sick gear. How much can 2h hit, 200k dps (without wrath)? that with godly gear all max crit and ias slots, most items with max +str stat. I'm at about 130k dps with over 2k str and relatively good items (1.5k dps weapon, high crit ect). And even that value is not enough vs solo game elites health which is couple of millions. Result is, whirlwind on top of elite with tornado kills it way faster than doing it with same dps with any other barbarian skills, maybe with an exception of earthquake + cleave. But then again, you could use earthquake with tornado and kill even faster, so not really fair comparision.
I tested it also, comparing max dps cleave version with berserker rage, just most damage i could pull with my gear, was about 150k (without wotb).
And that compared to a mixed defensive tornado builds, with exact same gear, but with 85k dps.
The tornado builds kills way faster (easily over 2x), not counting movement speed and ability to entirely ignore trash.
And I don't have any life on hit, my attack is slow (cause of 2h, attack speed total is 1.2 attacks per second). All health regen comes from life steal, fury from mastery+mighty weapon and battle rage + crit (around 40% chance).
EI'm at about 130k dps with over 2k str and relatively good items (1.5k dps weapon, high crit ect). And even that value is not enough vs solo game elites health which is couple of millions.
Err ... ? You should be able to blow anything up in a few seconds with insanity + earthquake, or spamming hammer of the ancients. HotA + smash rune is 324% weapon damage per second just by itself (@ 1.2 attacks per second), and that number will scale much better than whirlwind will with more increased attack speed. Toss insanity in there and tornadoes haven't got a prayer. That's not even taking into consideration the possibility of using marauder's rage or something else on battle rage instead of into the fray for even more damage
I meant in comparision to tornado build.
Let's say your crits are 500k, you still need for example 5 crits to kill a champion. Not every hit will crit, and these hit for about 100-150k. It really comes down to multiple hits anyway, and if they run away you can hit one at the time. It is really easy to chase down ranged AI pack for a minute or two, even with this type of damage.
Insanity helps greatly yeah, but after you use it, you run into new elite pack that #@%@s you with cc abilities, and you have cooldown on your insanity.
Now if you whirlwind through stuff with permanent berserker, you release tornados, and everything gets continously hit by that, dealing damage. Ranged AI is zero problem, as you can just run past them, and let them follow you, they will die by the time you run into next elite pack.
This will fail against any ranged pack that can't keep up with you for long, and will definitely fail if you're in a group.
If you're really at 130k dps I think you'll have a hard time keeping up berserker in a solo game anyway. Things will just die so fast you don't have a chance to get much fury from them. It's more fun to drag three dead weight players in a public game in a2- for me for this reason alone. It would likely be similar in a3 once I reach your level of dps
Thanks for the nice feedback guys. I´m mainly active in the EU part of the forums so I almost forgot about this one here. Here´s some new stuff from me (added to the first post)
a) The character screen aps value is misleading, you have to calculate your aps manually (or by using a aps calculator online), or else you might get fewer ticks than you wanted. Example character screen says 2.00 when in fact aps is 1.998 and you get 18 ticks instead of 20.
b) The difference between Whirlwind and Sprint is the fact that Whirlwind alternates between weapon damage and attacks per second value of both weapons while Sprint tornadoes always use the main hand weapon damage but alternate between main hand and off-hand attacks per second values, depending on the weapon you swung with last before you sprint.
For a tornado focused build, maximizing aps (meaning tick breakpoints) on the off-hand is the better option while you maximize damage on the main hand. This means you want a heavy hitting main hand with an off-hand that gives you more tornado ticks. Example: swing with your 6% weapon IAS off-hand dagger (1.8285 aps = 6 ticks per second) and afterwards your tornado hits will do main hand (1.38 aps mace for example = 4.33 ticks per second) weapon damage and get 18 ticks instead of 13 ticks, improving the tornado damage by 38.5%.
c) If you use a Spear without weapon IAS in main hand with Weapons Master and a Mace without weapon IAS in off-hand, the character screen will show the same (Weapons Master) boosted aps for both weapons, despite the fact that the Spear should be faster than the Mace. The game also applies this boosted aps for the Mace and you get the same swing speed with both weapons. This does not apply for any other weapons as off-hand. This also does not apply if there´s weapon IAS on either weapon. It´s probably a bug.
I´ve also researched Whirlwind Fury cost scaling with aps. It´s actually pretty simple. There´s a set fury cost (in average 5.4-5.5 fury) per whirlwind tick and the faster you hit -> the more ticks -> the more fury.
Here´s the fury cost sequence from 120 max Fury (Animosity):
tick # - fury pool - sequence cost - tick cost
#1 - 114/120 - 6 - 6
#2 - 109/120 - 11 - 5
#3 - 103/120 - 17 - 6
#4 - 98/120 - 22 - 5
#5 - 93/120 - 27 - 5
#6 - 87/120 - 33 - 6
#7 - 82/120 - 38 - 5
#8 - 77/120 - 43 - 5
#9 - 71/120 - 49 - 6
#10 - 66/120 - 54 - 5
#11 - 61/120 - 59 - 5
#12 - 55/120 - 65 - 6
#13 - 50/120 - 70 - 5
#14 - 45/120 - 75 - 5
#15 - 39/120 - 81 - 6
#16 - 34/120 - 86 - 5
#17 - 28/120 - 92 - 6
#18 - 23-22/120 - 98 - 6
#19 - 17/120 - 103 - 5
#20 - 11/120 - 109 - 6
#21 - 5/120 - 115 - 6
EDIT: Also added the following info.
Mighty Weapons Master applies proc coefficients! This means that you only have a 20% chance to gain 3 Fury per Tornado tick (and 13% chance per Whirlwind tick). The other 80% of the time you get 0 Fury with tornadoes from Mighty Weapons Master.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/18/2012 2:15 PM PDT
You meant high dps main hand right? How hard it hits is irrelevant for tornadoes, and might actually be detrimental to keeping your fury up if you're right at the edge of maintaining your fury and it happens to be the active weapon when you spawn tornadoes
No, tornado damage is based on main hand DPS. There's nothing you can do in your offhand besides get +str or +crit damage (or if you're nuts, one of those legendaries that has crit chance) that will have any effect on the damage of your tornadoes. You'll get more ticks with a faster offhand, but those ticks will not affect the overall damage dealt. Each tick will not deal as much damage as a tornado spawned by a slower weapon. You want a fast offhand because it will give more fury and life on hit when it's active and you sprint. You want stats on your offhand because they'll help the main hand dps.
You generally want a fast mainhand because it'll create more ticks for fury. There is absolutely no difference in tornado damage between using a 1.2 speed weapon with 800 DPS and a 1.5 speed weapon with 800 DPS. So always go for the faster weapon, unless it has a property you need -- for instance, going axe/mace for the crit bonus.
Edited by xEvilReeperx#1724 on 7/18/2012 4:50 PM PDT
@ xEvilReeperx: Did you actually read what I wrote there? Everything that I posted was tested in-game.
When you´re dual-wielding, the tornado tick frequency depends on the APS value of the weapon you swung with last. Do you understand what that means?
You have a 1.20 aps mace in main hand, + 15% IAS from dual-wielding = 1.38 aps on this weapon. Then you have a dagger with 6% weapon IAS = 1.50 * 1.06 = 1.59 aps +15% IAS from dual-wielding = 1.8285 aps on this weapon.
The mace tick frequency is 4.33 per second (13 ticks in 3 seconds). The dagger tick frequency is 6 ticks per second (18 ticks in 3 seconds).
You swing (let´s say Bash) with the dagger. Now you click Sprint and generate tornadoes. The tornadoes will tick at the dagger frequency using the mace weapon damage. What happened? You just boosted your tornado damage by 18/13 = 38.5%.
If you still don´t get it, feel free to test it yourself. I didn´t think this up. This is how the game works, I only researched it.
The tornadoes will always tick for 20% main hand weapon damage (increased by strength, skills, crit etc.), but they use the aps of the weapon swung last.
And I meant highest possible weapon damage for maximizing tornado damage (and achieve a breakpoint with IAS) on main hand. There are some breakpoints that give you more % damage if you compare it to the IAS % boost. Let´s say dual-wield mace and you have 5% IAS on gear, which allows you to achieve the next tick frequency (from 13 to 14), so you will do 14/13 = 7.7% more damage with just 5% more attack speed, etc.
Generally two same dps weapons do the same damage, but it´s not always the case for tornadoes, because with specific IAS bonuses one of them might get to a breakpoint where it does more damage.
Example: two 720 dps weapons, a 480 average base damage 1.5 aps dagger (1.725 aps DW) = 600 average base damage 1.2 aps mace (1.38 aps DW) - to simplify this you have the exact same weapon in off-hand
1. the mace gets 13 tornado ticks for 120 weapon damage each (not including strength here) = 1560 damage
2. the dagger gets 17 ticks for 96 weapon damage each = 1632 damage
the dagger tornado outdamaged the mace tornado in this example (both have the same dps value)
now we add 5% IAS gear into the equation
1. the mace gets 14 tornado ticks for 120 weapon damage each thanks to achieving a breakpoint (1.44 aps) = 1680 damage per tornado
2. the dagger still gets 17 ticks for 96 weapon damage because it´s at 1.80 aps and the next breakpoint is 1.82 aps = still 1632 damage per tornado
the mace outdamaged the dagger in this one (both have the same dps value)
Understand how this works?
EDIT: OK the heavy hitting main hand is badly worded. It should be "highest tornado damage weapon achieved through a combination of base weapon damage and aps with that weapon, including all IAS bonuses".
The thing what I meant by heavy hitting is that if you have a low frequency high base damage main hand and a super fast off-hand, the higher the speed difference, the more you boost your tornado damage in the scenario where you sprint after swinging with the off-hand.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/18/2012 5:51 PM PDT
Seems unlikely, when you're starting off with the flawed assumption that tornadoes deal 20% weapon damage per tick. They don't. 20% is the life on hit/skill coefficient. They deal 60% mainhand dps per second, with ticks coming more often with higher attack speed
I (and Dino) already tested this some time ago. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5888809698?page=16#303
There´s some breakpoints that give you more % damage if you compare it with the IAS % boost. Let´s say dual-wield mace and you have 5% IAS on gear, which allows you to achieve the next tick frequency (from 13 to 14), so you will do 14/13 = 7.7% more damage with just 5% more attack speed, etc.
No, you'll deal the same damage over 14 ticks as you would with 13. No difference. Average damage per tick with 14 ticks will be ~7% lower. I too thought the damage would be based on Weapon Damage like the tooltip says, but it is not. Damage dealt is based solely on the calculated main hand dps, and how often that damage is applied is calculated on your current weapon's attack speed.
This is really easy to test. Go get a slow 2h weapon and a fast 1h weapon with the same dps and you'll see they both deal the same tornado damage overall.
Look at your fraps/recorded numbers again. It'll be easiest to test your damage per tick theory again so you aren't stuck on that 20% number convincing you that more ticks equals more damage
The post you linked to is "around" and assumptions. I posted an exact test result in the second post of this topic, read it.
Also, after my research, Dino posted that Tornadoes do about 60-70% dps per second.
I use a 27 base damage weapon (+min damage amulet) and see how much damage one tick does. It´s 20% weapon damage.
We´re basically saying the same thing, because 60% dps per second roughly equals 20% weapon damage per tick times researched aps tick frequency. Some breakpoints do a bit more damage, thus Dino posted 60-70% dps per second.
You just have to understand that it works like I described.
Btw. no skill uses "dps" in calculations, it´s always weapon damage. Whirlwind does 36.67% weapon damage per tick (110/3). I have researched almost all barb skills.
Here´s the post.
EDIT: I´ll check tomorrow (I mean today, in the morning - 3:17 AM here) what you wrote and test whatever you want me to ... I just hope you will trust the results.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/18/2012 6:18 PM PDT
You're right about the ticking at mainhand dps using offhand speed, tested it myself. Interesting. So, dagger or sword are definitely the best offhand choices. I'll look more closely at the rest tomorrow. It seems my information is out of date
Updating the dual-wield weapon breakpoints table, which now includes weapon IAS (on the weapon itself). I´ve calculated only the Dagger breakpoints so far.
DAGGER (+15% dual-wielding IAS)
no weapon IAS = 1.50 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.725 aps = 5.67 ticks per second (tps)
-> +7% IAS = +22% total IAS = 1.83 aps = 6 tps
-> +19% IAS = +34% total IAS = 2.01 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +34% IAS = +49% total IAS = 2.235 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +52% IAS = +67% total IAS = 2.505 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +76% IAS = +91% total IAS = 2.865 aps = 10 tps
2% weapon IAS = 1.53 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.7595 aps = 5.67 tps
-> +4% IAS = +19% total IAS = 1.8207 aps = 6 tps
-> +16% IAS = +31% total IAS = 2.0043 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +31% IAS = +46% total IAS = 2.2338 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +49% IAS = +64% total IAS = 2.5092 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +72% IAS = +87% total IAS = 2.8611 aps = 10 tps
3% weapon IAS = 1.545 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.77675 aps = 5.67 tps
-> +3% IAS = +18% total IAS = 1.8231 aps = 6 tps
-> +15% IAS = +30% total IAS = 2.0085 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +30% IAS = +45% total IAS = 2.24025 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +47% IAS = +62% total IAS = 2.5029 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +71% IAS = +86% total IAS = 2.8737 aps = 10 tps
4% weapon IAS = 1.56 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.794 aps = 5.67 tps
-> +2% IAS = +17% total IAS = 1.8252 aps = 6 tps
-> +14% IAS = +29% total IAS = 2.0124 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +28% IAS = +43% total IAS = 2.2308 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +46% IAS = +61% total IAS = 2.5029 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +69% IAS = +84% total IAS = 2.8704 aps = 10 tps
5% weapon IAS = 1.575 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.81125 aps = 5.67 tps
-> +2% IAS* = +17% total IAS = 1.84275 aps = 6 tps
-> +12% IAS = +27% total IAS = 2.00025 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +27% IAS = +42% total IAS = 2.2365 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +44% IAS = +59% total IAS = 2.50425 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +67% IAS = +82% total IAS = 2.8665 aps = 10 tps
*note: this weapon only needs 1% IAS to achieve the first breakpoint but 2% IAS is the minimum value you can add in the game
6% weapon IAS = 1.59 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.8285 aps = 6 tps
-> +11% IAS = +26% total IAS = 2.0034 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +26% IAS = +41% total IAS = 2.2419 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +43% IAS = +58% total IAS = 2.5122 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +65% IAS = +80% total IAS = 2.862 aps = 10 tps
7% weapon IAS = 1.605 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.84575 aps = 6 tps
-> +10% IAS = +25% total IAS = 2.00625 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +24% IAS = +39% total IAS = 2.23095 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +41% IAS = +56% total IAS = 2.5038 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +64% IAS = +79% total IAS = 2.87295 aps = 10 tps
8% weapon IAS = 1.62 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.863 aps = 6 tps
-> +9% IAS = +24% total IAS = 2.0088 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +23% IAS = +38% total IAS = 2.2356 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +40% IAS = +55% total IAS = 2.511 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +62% IAS = +77% total IAS = 2.8674 aps = 10 tps
9% weapon IAS = 1.635 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.88025 aps = 6 tps
-> +8% IAS = +23% total IAS = 2.01105 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +22% IAS = +37% total IAS = 2.23995 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +38% IAS = +53% total IAS = 2.50115 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +60% IAS = +75% total IAS = 2.86125 aps = 10 tps
10% weapon IAS = 1.65 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.8975 aps = 6 tps
-> +7% IAS = +22% total IAS = 2.013 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +21% IAS = +36% total IAS = 2.244 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +37% IAS = +52% total IAS = 2.508 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +59% IAS = +74% total IAS = 2.871 aps = 10 tps
11% weapon IAS = 1.665 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.91475 aps = 6 tps
-> +6% IAS = +21% total IAS = 2.01465 aps = 6.67 tps
-> +19% IAS = +34% total IAS = 2.2311 aps = 7.67 tps
-> +36% IAS = +51% total IAS = 2.51415 aps = 8.67 tps
-> +57% IAS = +72% total IAS = 2.8638 aps = 10 tps
- weapon IAS means increased attack speed on the weapon itself, which multiplies the base attack speed of a weapon resulting in a new weapon aps
- the new aps of the weapon then gets multiplied by the sum of all IAS bonuses from gear and skills
- IAS from gear:
helm: Andariel's Visage (+6%), Mempo of Twilight (+6%), Tzo Krin's Gaze (+6%)
bracers: Lacuni Prowlers (+6%)
chest armor: Tal Rasha's Guardianship (+6%)
mighty belt: Pride of Cassius (+6%)
boots: Boj Anglers (+6%), Zunimassa's Journey (+6%), Asheara's Lock (+5%)
- IAS from skills:
Wrath of the Berserker (+25%)
Focused Mind (+3%)
Related note: a 7% weapon IAS dagger in off-hand with the highest possible dps mace that has 1.20 aps (highest possible base weapon damage at 1.20 aps), has the highest possible damage potential with tornado ticks including the time you pop WotB. You don´t need any more gear/skill IAS for this.
1.20 aps mace +15% dw IAS = 1.38 aps = 4.33 ticks per second
1.50 aps dagger +7% weapon IAS = 1.605 weapon aps +15% dw IAS = 1.84575 aps = 6 ticks per second
scenario 2: let´s pop Wrath of the Berserker
1.20 aps mace (+15% dw IAS + 25% WotB IAS) = 1.20 * 1.40 = 1.68 aps = 5.67 ticks per second
1.50 aps dagger +7% weapon IAS = 1.605 weapon aps (+15% dw IAS +25% WotB IAS) = 2.247 aps = 7.67 ticks per second
Tick frequency improvements:
a) swinging with the mace before sprinting will result in 4.33 ticks per second tornadoes
b) swinging with the dagger before sprinting improves the tornado frequency (and thus damage as well) by 38.46% (18/13 or 6/4.33).
a) just popping WotB and swinging with the mace before sprinting improves your tornado tick frequency by 30.77% (17/13 or 5.67/4.33) compared to unboosted mace tornadoes (scenario 1a), but unboosted dagger tornadoes (scenario 1b) gave you 5.89% more ticks than WotB boosted mace tornadoes (18/17 or 6/5.67).
b) popping WotB and swinging with the dagger before sprinting improves your tornado tick frequency by 27.78% (23/18 or 7.67/5.67) when compared to unboosted dagger tornado frequency (scenario 1b) while improving your tornado tick frequency by 35.29% (23/17 or 7.67/5.67) when compared to WotB mace frequency (scenario 2a).
Note that you can achieve the first scenario with a 6% weapon IAS dagger, but you wouldn´t achieve the dagger breakpoint with WotB in the second scenario, thus you need a 7% weapon IAS dagger.
If anyone finds a better combination that would deal more tornado damage, let me know.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/19/2012 5:34 AM PDT
too much ppl posting and trying to show off how good their ww barb is and asking for it to be nerfed.
if it really does get nerfed we will have to go back to boring tank build again. so lets pls stop posting abt how powerful u are.
and does this post really help ppl? do u see ur dps when u are spinning into 20s or 30s mob?
all i care is they die within 10 secs and i dun really care how much dmg my tornado do per tick
this build is the closest to hack and slash philosophy of diablo series.
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.