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Lightning was the most played because it allow you to WW as much as you want without using Fury generators. And the real main reason for lightning WW was SoH: it doesn't proc with Fire and Physical attacks, so Lightning was the way to go. Now that SoH was corrected and is not the ultimate weapon in the game for WW barb you could choose to change the element.
As for nearly every spec Fire would probably be the way to go as it's the only one offering a damage boost on WW. Fire WW's main problem being the Fury. You can run it with IK4 for generating fury, Cindercoat, paragon points for -10% cost on skills and Reaper's bracers. I though about going that way some time ago.
But SoH even "nerfed" is still pretty strong. I looked closely in game, my SoH proc does 5M per bolt on normal monsters when TF's proc does around 2M on the same monsters. I'll try more tests to be really sure but for what I can see it benefits from Elemental damage to Lightning. You can also use OdynSon as a Lightning build that will give you an elemental bonus like Sankis/Devastator do with a fire build. With the diference that Odynson got a strong DPS proc while its fire counterparts dont.
That makes Fire WW not that appealing to me, having to change the whole equipment for not gaining that much damage in the end and facing more fury troubles.
Well even with all the bellyaching and Blizzard holding us down I'm determined to make a build work. I'm in the phase of accumulating items so don't go by my current Barb. I was playing mostly WD til the aniv leg bonus but this gave me the incentive to gear up my barb. I have a few ideas floating around my sparkbox. Will post back after I try a few things out.
I've been a die hard whirlwind barb, and I just hate every build that does not have it no matter what else the build does. I can clear T6 with it now but not easily without using other methods in the mix. With good gear whirlwind alone just seem to hit like crap overall while some witch doctor is running as fast as they can with 5,000 critters.
The saving grace of WW and main reason I keep it has more to do with positioning than damage. For example: using WW to perfectly center on a pack that you intend to charm with resonance helm (ok there's a lot of tank and dps rolled into one) and/or rending can have quite a bit of value. Getting out of oh - crap situations is also great. It seems like anytime I play most other classes (even mages with teleport) eventually you're boxed into a corner with no cool down, slamming on the keys but you know you're going down. I don't get that feeling as long as I have WW and that is nice.
Those good points aren't really new (except perhaps for charming with threatening shout) but I think they are still are good enough to keep the skill.
The most effective method for fury generation now seems to be IK set with the fury on hit rune. Sadly this gimps their dps though so I haven't really been using it too much. It's kind of fun to have that setup and use seismic slam first then WW into the pack to finish them off. This build generates so much fury you can afford sprint as well. Mighty weapons with weapons master has just felt like garbage except with other skills with higher coefficients. I'm aware lightning would generate plenty of fury but I refuse to "give in". All in all, I'd say the IK base bonus + Unforgiving has been the primary mainstay that I've run now.
I have also tried super high attack speed builds with less resistance and more life on fury spent and they did ok. As long as you're on your game and playing well you can rely more on taking damage for fury and restocking it via healing. Where this gets annoying is when you are CC'ed (freeze balls, etc.) you're pretty likely to go down so I don't go this route too often and balancing it is harder in upper torment levels. If I can find a pair of ice climbers I might revisit this strategy.
RLTW.... RIP.. just makes me run out of fury to play the way I used to be able to. Forget it, they did a fairly good job of killing it. I'd probably rather just take marathon to speed up my WW than bother with RLTW now.
Why? My guess is, they wanted to save money on server processing. Most all these new "toys" such as leapquake, etc. all guide you into the cooldown section of the boat. It's probably easier for them to load balance their servers with knowing (this person can never do more than X in a certain amount of time.)
It's not fun though. I recall the first day playing RoS and thinking what, where the ... is my fury... need more fury... not enough fury... need more fury. Ohhh ahh with this new fancy yellow level 70 gear I had, with 5,000 str and barely any diversity - HEY I'll get some coffee while I wait for frenzy to get up to the 3rd stack! Today I'm pushing the limits to try and get back to the speed and fluid feeling I had before there but it sure is a battle and in the meantime I feel a bit more like a shouting, screaming mage.
Nice post Cerze and I understand what you mean. I´m still deep down inside hoping to pull off at least a semi-efficient WW build soon. I mean I can play T5 at a proper pace but it can´t compare to LeapQuake, HotA and neither to Slam now.
The numbers simply don´t up, unfortunately. WW by itself deals pitiful damage compared to other spammable spenders we have, but it´s always been like this - it made up with its utility and working as the main Fury engine through ItF/ToC.
What hurts WW is the fact that while all spenders got buffed, RLTW (the synergizing effective WW damage output booster) stayed the same and had its proc coefficient butchered. Also, it´s physical and unless you use a Physical WW rune, all those elemental bonuses you are usually stacking feel like a waste.
But what hurts WW the most at the moment is the correlation of its proc coefficient, speed coefficient and the internal cooldown of weapon procs. It may seem like WW "should" proc things more often given that baseline ticks 3 times faster than other main spenders and you may damage more than one foe per tick all while moving - in which case the coefficient would be appropriate.
But the internal cooldown of procs such as Shard of Hate and Thunderfury which run off of aps and don´t consider skill speed coefficients result in more than suboptimal number of these damage procs. On top of that, Shard of Hate is an "on attack" not "on hit" proc so WW hitting many monsters each tick has no effect on increasing the number of procs.
All of these issues sum up. Fortunately, I now have almost all gear pieces to try out various builds (all of a sudden I got IK helm, boots and even the weapon in the past 2 days - those were the only ones I was missing, have multiple pieces of every other Barb set item), so I´ll see what is possible.
Barbarian game mechanics information:
My EU server profile:
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 6/7/2014 1:16 AM PDT
Now that is interesting. Looks like from a magazine :D
It´s the first time I see someone with that weapon combo and they´re not half-badly rolled, too. Hmm but the main hand was from pre-patch 2.0.5 I assume, because it doesn´t fully benefit from the +10% damage roll on it.
You should probably reroll that to elite damage or vitality, which would allow you to reroll the vit on your Tasker into crit damage.
I´m going to attempt something similar, just Physical, with the Bul-Kathos set or Sun Keeper + Doom Bringer or whatever I can come up with.
EDIT: And yes, having Ancients attack 5 times (my current) or more per second is pretty neat to have.
EDIT2: Physical WW is doable but rather slow. Also Electrified burns me alive.
EDIT3: Electrified makes WW+Ancients unplayable at T6 for me and I just had 5 out of 6 packs with that ridiculous ability. Good bye spec, until I get the immunity amulet.
Barbarian game mechanics information:
My EU server profile:
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 6/7/2014 5:43 AM PDT
@Nubtro First of all, you are my angel ;=) I want to say thank you for all the works you have done for the barb community.
I appreciate your recommendations on the reroll of MH weapon and Tasker. I am thinking the same thing. But one thing that might mislead you when you look at my (web) profile. The MH weapon dps shown on the profile is incorrect. Look at this thread http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13075707495 that I ask about reroll % dmg. My in-game MH weapon dps is 2,464.8 not 2,279.9. BTW I believe this weapon is post-patch 2.0.5. Now do you think I should still reroll vit on my MH weapon and CHD on my Tasker?
Thank you in advance ;D
PS. Done. I rerolled them as you recommended. Thank you again.
Edited by myFri3nd#6148 on 6/7/2014 7:06 AM PDT
I love this thread and all the fantastic information. Going to have to read more. I am currently a EQ barb and use WW-volcanic eruption. I just love the skill the animation and utility. I am trying to get top end Dps and push what WW-volcanic eruption can do as I am at 107% fire damage.
I still need- Hexing pants, Soj, Andy's Helm, Witching hour. I think with adding them then working on IAS to hit breakpoints it could be effective.
I currently have 1.7mil unbuff elemental Dps and I use WW as my finisher in my skills while I have EQ ticks going. Once I get the gear listed though I think I can make a attempt at a pure WW barb the only thing I wish was that Tornadoes ticked for fire damage and this build would definitely work well.
So I continue to gamble on my Soj after many failed attempts at a Witching hour. Hope to find 1 of the items on my WW wish list soon to give it a good crack at it with Top Dps to see what I can do.
I'll add one more tip that might help others. Using rend with bloodlust to heal does help a fair amount allowing you to generate more fury by being able to handle taking in more damage. It also replaces the feel of having your life steadily topped off in the same way RLTW used to when you are CC'ed, etc.
The more complete strat utilizing rend and fire WW is this:
Disclaimer: I have no idea if this "build" exactly is already posted/exists - whatever. I did my own playing and testing to work it out.
IK *3 (boots,gloves,belt) + RoRG ring. Fast pets.
Helm of resonance (charm on threatening shout using health globes rune)
Cindercoat (if you have tasker gloves, you might trade with these but I don't)
Extremely high dps the usual places (CC/CD/Elemental/AS) SoJ, etc.
Fairly high resists/armor (use warcry impunity and superstition)
Fairly low vit
The stinky poison pants (Pox)
Sunkeeper mainhand / Sankis offhand (sunkeeper makes pets hit harder but no AS loss and two weapons with high CD gems, I find is still beating any 2-hander combo overall)
1) WW into the biggest ugliest piles of stuff you can find
2) Threatening shout to charm and get treasure/health globes (which keep your pets alive)
3) Rend with bloodlust to get steady healing ticks coming in
4) Keep WW up and try to stay close to at least 3 guys so the pants (and maybe brawler) kick in
5) Either waste the pile or move to the next pile before the first is dead, lets them pound on each other awhile and bleed. You can do an entire level this way and then kill off whatever remains in a second pass. You might also want to change threatening shout to taunt for a second pass. You can do an entire game this way (not just a level.)
So your skills look like:
Threatening shout, warcry, battle rage (or whatever here), CoTa, Rend, WW. If you're slick about your mouse/key bindings you can fit Rend on the secondary with WW as the primary attack but still having WW work well as if it were on the secondary. Change left mouse button to send force move key and right mouse button to send shift+LMB while held. Use whatever you want to trigger the real right mouse button click. Doing this allows you to also use another skill like Berserk instead of Rend whereas otherwise you'd be stuck with WW on secondary and have to take a real primary skill on the left click. It's a little confusing, not really the focus of this posting so I won't go further into it now.
You passives look like:
Unforgiving, Superstition, Rampage, Weapons Master (for the CC)
If you're feeling too tanky then just sub out Superstition for Ruthless or Brawler.
The beauty of using WW to pull off this strategy is that the higher the torment level, the more effective the charming becomes. If they hit harder, then they hit each other harder. If you get lucky and find a well rolled rechel's ring then use it in place of one dps ring and switch threatening shout rune to terrify and you essentially have a free 10 second cooldown 4 second 40%+ speed sprint which generates fury. Another interesting effect of this is that when they are charmed AND feared, they will run off in directions pulling the interest of even more piles of monsters leaving you free and clear to run to the next pile without burning fury for WW to get out of the pile. If you don't have this ring or the one you have sucks, just sub out battle rage for sprint.
While this strategy may not have the burst damage of leapquake, removing the need for WoTs gear + having extra fury from threatening shout/warcry, being quite a bit tankier so you can pull together large piles, and considering the damage the monsters do to each other while they fight each other makes it a very compelling option where WW is still a key tool. My pets are strong enough to last an entire T6 game without remaking them and that has some value too.
Edited by Svendre#1554 on 6/7/2014 4:15 PM PDT
The only problem I'm having right now with shi mizu chest is my attack speed is too fast with legacy ef and I heal out(blood funnel) of the 100% crits too fast(800k hp is 8k hp per crit). But if I take the weapon out I heal out too slow. No fury problems with relentless, and it sure is fun when I get perfect balance seeing 100% crits off ww/rltw. It's definitely a balancing act though. Pretty bad that you need to have 100% crits to make this build do decent damage lol. I do believe I can make it to t6 with the right amount of attack speed/hp/toughness. Such a struggle though.
Forgot to add when my health falls to shi mizu threshold my damage with elemental and hexing is over 3mil. Nados crit for around 500-700k at 23 ticks thats like what 12-15mil aoe damage? I can push it to 20 mil per nado and at 4 or 5 nados that's decent damage but not mind shattering.
Edited by Unclepauly#1244 on 6/7/2014 3:34 PM PDT
Ok I decided to give my WW barb build a test run without my Dream items I still need:
RoS- Witching Hour
With my current gear I have:
Unbuff Elemental Dps- 1,869,613.65 Ranked Barb Dps World -#420
With the tool tip adding buff's without battle rage 2,449,782.76 -
I went with IK helm and Boots for the 3pc set to help with fury this allows me to wear my vanilla witching which has nice stats on it. For the IAS and CD. Also able to keep my Cindercoat and Magefist which bring in the WW-Volcanic Eruption fire dmg and reduce WW cost.
I was able to manage Fury very well using
Sprint, Leap, Battle Rage, WotB WW, Over Power-Revel rune
I really hate WW on my left click though and have to get used to it. I really don't want it there but I have to put Over Power on my right click.
I was ripping threw T4 on WW alone like a lawnmore. I took Battle Rage bloodshed and it worked fantastic. I could kill Elites with WW alone since my Dps is up there. I can just imagine what it would be like with my Wish List items.
So big mob I actually would leap in if it was up pull them in hit Over Power- Revel cause of fire rune and blow them up. I am getting 25-30mil crits without WotB and 45-52mil crtis with WotB
So I can easy push this to T5 then I would start to rely on WW/Nado's resetting my Over Power to chuck out the huge crits. I think this build has some potential the only problem I am facing is to do this I am running a old Witching Hour and it tanks my toughness. So finding a new Witching Hour is key along with a SoJ.
I am going to have to play around with it some more but if you can constantly refresh Over Power with this build and my Dps scoring 25-30mil crits the damage is there. I might have to test in a rift and on a rift guardian.
Let me know your thoughts on my build and the results I found.
*Edit- running this build on T5 mobile elites are a little annoying. Trash though gets 1 shot by my Over Power which is actually making me laugh. Leap in middle hit Over Power boom. They explode with Battle Rage-Blood Shed so that is tons of fun. WW is still managing well with kill power to what I call fast and effective. I think this is my wall though because I don't have a SoJ for elites and I could really benefit having a new Witching Hour and Hexing pants. Pretty good though.
*Edit 2- I found a Awesome Andy's Helm last night and been testing it. So I went with IK belt and Boots for the set bonus. It still boosted my Dps a lot I have 1,941,946.41 unbuff elemental Dps puts me at #289 Barb Dps in the world.
Through my testing I have come to the conclusion that Andy's helm is most likely mandatory for a viable WW/Nado build. The proc goes off constantly with WW/Nado and the nova is criting for 1.2-2mil. When I mean constantly it can go off a couple times in 1 second. That is to much added damage in a Aoe proc with WW/Nado and a must have. Also the IAS just will help in attaining new break points. I am currently wearing it in my profile. So now I hope today is the day I get my SoJ.
*Edit 3- Still need my SoJ and Hexing pants. I decided to go with Aughild's set to make up for elite damage and helps a ton. Great set. I actually have added Revenge for healing and another Dps option. So I am playing around with skill bar. I have gone without WoTb and its been fine I do miss it though situationally. Although Revenge with fire rune stores 2 charges is hitting in the 22-28mil dmg range and is another Aoe that heals you in a big mob. Hard not to take that. I have played with replacing leap but its a fury generator also mob control to set up my Over Power which hits for up to 60mil now. I still need a lot more IAS but even now WW/Nado eats trash mobs fast with the combo of Andy's Helm psn procs firing off.
Edited by Abomb247#1301 on 6/9/2014 8:37 AM PDT
Those were the days when Barbs were powerful....
It's like he looked into a crystal ball and saw what was to come.
You look at each weapon separately, not the average. Both are in the 2.0000 < x > 2.22222 breakpoint, which means you get 6.67 ticks (hits) per second.
You whirlwind deals 275/3 * 60/9 = 611.11% weapon damage per second per enemy and if you also use RLTW, it deals 60/3 * 60/9 = 133.33% weapon damage per second per tornado per enemy.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 7/9/2014 10:45 AM PDT
58.5K views, is this still the top thread among class forums in this aspect?
I will surely have to update this one with the new information regarding WW proc coefficient (0.2 now) and the new Life per Hit mechanics a.k.a Life per Attack on first monster hit, which heals the whole LpH values every 3 ticks while channeling.
Then Slaughter now has a 0.25 proc coefficient and seems to be able to trigger Bloodshed.
What else? Obviously higher weapon damage of WW, maybe a mention of Enhancer and alternating hands...but I am lazy :D
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