Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

Yes,

also does anyone know how ias affects ww?
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Quick question about fury generation. I recently bought a new Mighty Weapon for my main hand to generate more fury from the weapon master passive. I've noticed a slight improvement, but not a whole lot. I'm guessing that's because it's like the OP said: weapon master for mighty weapons uses the proc coefficient of the skill you use.

So a 20% chance to gain 3 fury per hit sounds negligible now. Would Animosity work better for fury generation? I wasn't sure if Animosity worked with BR/Into the Fray.
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The proc coefficients for both tornadoes and ww are still the same in 1.0.4.

But I´ve personally noticed a bit of fury starving, something seems to have changed (probably tornado spawning - the first one seems to spawn later than before or they´ve adjusted the CH rng). I´m not sure though.

Lorenze: ias affects ww the same way it affects tornadoes. It´s impossible to research the exact breakpoints for ww but you might as well apply the tornado chart on ww, when I researched both, the tick frequencies seemed to be the same.

DeusMortis: I´ve been experimenting with Animosity, Superstition and Boon of Bul-Kathos while timing my act 3 runs. I´ve used animosity for a long time and it´s really good. Superstition in act 3 is also nice (lots of ranged and fireballs, more room for errors), Boon provides you with more Wotb (higher movement speed, attack speed, CH, killspeed) and am sticking with it for now.

I have 46.5% CH chance when battle rage is up and tried other Bash runes but it was really bad fury-wise.

I recommend you to try each of the passives I posted and decide for yourself. Animosity does boost into the fray fury generation. Maybe even try animosity + templar for 18% more fury, with mighty weapons master you´d get 17.7 fury per instigation and 35.4 on a critical hit.

Into the fray fury generation is effectively 15 x CH chance/500 for tornadoes and 15 x CH chance/100 x 0.13 for ww.

So if you have 50% CH chance, into the fray generates
- 1.5 fury per tornado tick
- 0.975 fury per ww tick

Let´s say you change to mighty weapons master (instead of axe/mace so -10% CH)
- 1.2 fury (into the fray) + 0.6 fury (mighty wm) per tornado tick = 1.8 fury per tick
- 0.78 fury (into the fray) + 0.39 (mighty wm) per ww tick = 1.17 fury per tick

This is the "slight improvement" you´ve noticed, 20% more fury gain from mighty wm at 40% CH chance than from mace/axe wm. 25% more fury on a non-critical instigation hit (15/12).

I´m going to try mighty weapons master as well in a run. Also I´d like to know what exactly the bul-kathos´s glory set bonus "occasionally ww furiously" does, so if anyone has both weapons, feel free to post about your experience.

EDIT: Mighty weapons master is amazing (I was wrong), I was almost constantly under Thrive on Chaos. Part of the reason was Boon, then losing damage (from 52K down to 44K, monsters didn´t die as fast), iproved tick frequency (the mighty weapon I was using had 10% ias).

Yeah the more critical hit chance you have, the better mighty weapons master becomes, because you lose less from -10% CH (mace/axe). You have to be ready to lose damage as well, but on the other hand you´ll have an easier time handling your fury. Plus, a slayer looks awesome.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/2/2012 1:29 PM PDT
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Nice post Nubtro.

can I make a conclusion that: it doesn't matter how fast you attack, Tornado still deal 60% of your display dps ?

0.90-1.00 attacks per second = 9 tornado ticks over 3 seconds = 3 ticks per second (tps
1.01-1.11 attacks per second = 10 ticks over 3 seconds = 3.33 tps
1.12-1.17 attacks per second = 11 ticks over 3 seconds = 3.67 tps
1.18-1.32 attacks per second = 12 ticks over 3 seconds = 4 tps
1.33-1.43 attacks per second = 13 ticks over 3 seconds = 4.33 tps
1.44-1.536 attacks per second = 14 ticks over 3 seconds = 4.67 tps
1.54-1.665 attacks per second = 15 ticks over 3 seconds = 5 tps
1.67-1.815 attacks per second = 17 ticks over 3 seconds = 5.67 tps
1.82-1.998 attacks per second = 18 ticks over 3 seconds = 6 tps
2.00-2.22 attacks per second = 20 ticks over 3 seconds = 6.67 tps
2.23-2.4975 attacks per second = 23 ticks over 3 seconds = 7.67 tps
2.50-2.8512 attacks per second = 26 ticks over 3 seconds = 8.67 tps
2.86-2.98035 attacks per second = 30 ticks over 3 seconds = 10 tps


--> 2.86-2.98035 attacks per second = 30 ticks over 3 seconds = 10 tps
--> each tick deal 20% of your weapon damage
Tornado damage = 10 tick per second x 20% weapon dmg = 200% weapon dmg per second
Weapon dps = 100% weapon damage x 2.98 speed = 298% weapon damage per second
Tornado/weapon: 200/298 = 67%

--> 1.82-1.998 attacks per second = 18 ticks over 3 seconds = 6 tps
--> each tick deal 20% of your weapon damage
Tornado damage = 6 tick per second x 20% weapon dmg = 120% weapon dmg per second
Weapon dps = 100% weapon damage x 1.99 speed = 200% weapon damage per second
Tornado/weapon: 120/200 = 60%

--> 1.18-1.32 attacks per second = 12 ticks over 3 seconds = 4 tps
--> each tick deal 20% of your weapon damage
Tornado damage = 4 tick per second x 20% weapon dmg = 80% weapon dmg per second
Weapon dps = 100% weapon damage x 1.32 speed = 132% weapon damage per second
Tornado/weapon: 80/132 = 60.6%
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The proc coefficients for both tornadoes and ww are still the same in 1.0.4.

Lorenze: ias affects ww the same way it affects tornadoes. It´s impossible to research the exact breakpoints for ww but you might as well apply the tornado chart on ww, when I researched both, the tick frequencies seemed to be the same.


Thank you for this, I had asked several places but no one seemed to know.
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sticky for ya
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"When dual-wielding, the number of tornado ticks depends on the attacks per second value of the last weapon swung"

To be clear, does this mean, if I spawn a tornado and my last swing was my mainhand, it uses the APS of my mainhand + IAS etc. But what if I now use WW or bash or something along those lines, so my "last weapon swung" changes to off-hand. Does the tornado which I spawned before now base its tickrate on my off-hand APS + IAS or does it still use the mainhand APS + IAS?

TL/DR:
Do tornados that are already spawned switch tickrate if my last weapon swung gets changed or does it stay with the tickrate it used when it was spawned initially.

I hope this makes any sense :)

But I'd really like to know...

P.S. requested sticky
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excellent thread
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Does anyone know for certain... if the tornados damage includes the weapons elemental damage and % damage.

If an weapon is
500-1000 damage
300-600 lightning damage
20% damage

are all 3 considered into the tornados damage?
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Kinseth yes all of them, just use the number that is right below DPS (if you look at the weapon stats window) for any damage calculation. That number already includes elemental and +% damage.

Zerged I was wondering the same thing, about tick frequency changes in real time as you increase aps (for example through WotB or swinging with the other weapon). I´ll test it later today.

Seems like the tornado damage and frequency doesn´t change when you switch to a different weapon. For example I used a cold damage dagger first to create some tornadoes and then switched to 2H mighty weapon and the already created tornadoes hit for dagger damage at dagger frequency. I´m assuming the same applies to swinging with the offhand or popping WotB, only the new tornadoes created by the other weapon will be different.

So to answer your question Zerged, the tornado tickrate stays the same as it was initially.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/15/2012 7:09 AM PDT
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Kinseth yes all of them, just use the number that is right below DPS (if you look at the weapon stats window) for any damage calculation. That number already includes elemental and +% damage.

Zerged I was wondering the same thing, about tick frequency changes in real time as you increase aps (for example through WotB or swinging with the other weapon). I´ll test it later today.

Seems like the tornado damage and frequency doesn´t change when you switch to a different weapon. For example I used a cold damage dagger first to create some tornadoes and then switched to 2H mighty weapon and the already created tornadoes hit for dagger damage at dagger frequency. I´m assuming the same applies to swinging with the offhand or popping WotB, only the new tornadoes created by the other weapon will be different.

So to answer your question Zerged, the tornado tickrate stays the same as it was initially.


Ok thanks. It's good to know this.
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When you attack, you start with your main hand and then alternate. After a set duration (like 3 seconds or so) of idling, you will default back to your main hand attack regardless of which hand attacked last.

That said, as a strategy for tornado deployment, should you: 1. attack twice (so your fast offhand weapon was the last to attack) 2. use Sprint 3. WW around?

Is this the method people are using? Or are they just hoping that they get the fast (offhand) tornadoes?
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"--> 2.86-2.98035 attacks per second = 30 ticks over 3 seconds = 10 tps--> each tick deal 20% of your weapon damageTornado damage = 10 tick per second x 20% weapon dmg = 200% weapon dmg per second Weapon dps = 100% weapon damage x 2.98 speed = 298% weapon damage per secondTornado/weapon: 200/298 = 67%"

if you have a 2.98 speed dagger in off-hand and a mace in the main hand you wont have 298% weapon damage.

I had a look at your profile nubtro, i'm wondering why you don't maximise attack speed in your gear?
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FraggleRock I don´t think people are purposely applying the off-hand stuff, it´s more like having an increased tornato tick frequency "when it happens". I did this some time ago thugh in act 2 when I wasn´t overgeared for that content, nowadays I´m relatively fine in act 3 and don´t purposely swing with off-hand anymore.

I didn´t know about the default back to main hand, I´ll look into that.

reddragonjak

1. I don´t fully understand what you mean, but you´re correct that tornadoes actually do 60-69% or so (depending on tick breakpoints) main hand dps if you calculate it, so the tooltip is roughly accurate.

The thing with off-hand increasing you damage lies in the fact that it increases your actual mace DPS. It´s like an additional aps increase from gear, this time from a second weapon which usually doesn´t give you IAS.

Or did you mean something different? Of course you won´t have 298% weapon damage, because tornadoes aren´t stated to do 100% damage. Also nowhere did I state that you will do 298% weapon damage.

2. You need high CH chance to support IAS when whirlwinding or you´ll instantly fury-less if the target doesn´t stand still.

Yes of course I´d like to have max CH chance, max CH damage, max IAS eventually, but it´s a matter of finances and my first priority is MF, because you know this game´s all about the drops (although they almost always suck) and I´m not the kind of player who runs through stuff like a mad one, I feel bad if I don´t pick up stuff (I even pick up 61-63 magic items and 60 follower special, gold, tomes and most gems). I wonder if that makes me a bad farmer...

The 1.0.5 follower MF cap change will lower my +403% MF but help me switch another piece of gear, after getting a few more paragon levels another piece etc.

-------------

On topic, here comes a heavy TORNADO NERF in 1.0.5, if you haven´t read the patch notes, tornado proc coefficient is being lowered from 0.2 to 0.08 which means a lot. The critical hit chance level to make this work (if, at all) will be a lot higher, fury starving will be apparent. I feel mighty weapons will be almost mandatory, although mwm is also affected by the proc coefficient, so it won´t help much either.

Fury gen comparison of let´s say 50% CH chance:

1.0.4
- into the fray: 0.2 * 0.5 * 15 = 1.5 fury on average per tornado tick
- mighty weapons master: 0.2 * 3 = 0.6 fury

1.0.5
- into the fray: 0.08 * 0.5 * 15 = 0.6 fury on average per tornado tick
- mighty weapons master: 0.08 * 3 = 0.24 fury on average per tornado tick

Hopefully this won´t mean the end of the majority of double tornado barbs, yes animosity gets doubled, maybe people will change mighty weapons master to animosity+unforgiving or animosity+superstition even. I can calculate whatever I want, but we´ll see the reality once the patch is in public test realm. Boy but 2.5 times less fury from tornadoes is huge...

So while tornadoes get a big hit, whirlwind actually becomes roughly 80% less fury costly, it should be 3 fury per WW tick in 1.0.5 (instead of roughly 5.375) if the mechanics don´t change. In bigger packs you should not run out of fury while WW, although the main benefit of double tornado was run like the wind speeding up things and this won´t work that good anymore.

I wouldn´t be surprised if a lot of barb players started whining and that the devs change the proc coefficient before 1.0.5 actually comes out.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/21/2012 3:43 AM PDT
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thanks for the reply, but i was actually qouting huanAK, who posted that comparison a few posts up.

I've actually geared my barb based on your research, if you look at my EU profile you'll notice i've acheived 10 ticks/second with my off-hand(WoTB) and a big damage mace for main hand, and i'm really happy with this =). By the time i get gems back into my gear, and a new amulet I should be hitting 30k+ tornados at 10 ticks/second.
Edited by reddragonjak#2323 on 9/21/2012 6:14 AM PDT
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So, planning on MW MH and a dagger OH, I'm calculating that without the enchantress and in Wrath, you need 53 ias on armor to hit 26 and 30 ticks. Anybody want to verify?

2.50-2.8512 attacks per second = 26 ticks over 3 seconds = 8.67 tps
2.86-2.98035 attacks per second = 30 ticks over 3 seconds = 10 tps

15% dual wield bonus, 25% wrath, 53% armor, = 93%

1.3*1.93 = 2.509 ---> 26 ticks

1.5*1.93 = 2.895 ---> 30 ticks

There is a possible of 63 IAS: 9 each on ammy, ring, ring, glove, helm, belt, bracer

Assuming Lacuni, Mempo, and Witching Hour, you're looking at 24 minimum -> 53-24 = 29 spread among the remaining four: ammy, glove, ring, ring

Best way would be 7 7 7 8

Any other math people want to verify?
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I'll try taking speed to max.

15 - Dual Wield
18 - 2x ring
9 - amulet
9 - gloves
------ That's +51% attack speed so far, now we go rare-y.
8 - Bracers: Lacuni Prowlers (8-9)
8 - Pants: Inna's Temptance (8-9)
8 - Helm: Mempo of Twilight or Andariel's Visage (8-9)
8 - Belt: Witching Hour (8-9)
8 - Chest: Tal Rasha's Relentless Pursuit (8-9)
6 - Boots: Zunimassa's Journey (6-7) - pre-1.0.4
------
That adds up to a minimum of 97% to a maximum of 103%, which buffed would be:
1,3 weapon: 1,3*2,28 = 2,964 attacks per second (10 tps)
1,5 weapon: 1,5*2,28 = 3,42 attacks per second (probably 11 tps)

Still...I think I can go a little further...add a 11% attack speed daggers for 1,65.
1,65*2,28 = 3,762 attacks per second. (probably 13 tps)
1,65*2,31 = 3,811 attacks per second with the enchantress. (probably 15 tps)

That -is- insane. No doubt something like that will appear running M10.
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90 Human Warrior
8830
Posts: 335
this thread is awesome
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I believe some of your breakpoints are wrong nubtro because you are counting focused mind enchantress buff wrong in your tests. The way focused mind works is not by adding 3% ias to your total ias like dual wield/gear/wotb, but rather it adds .03 IAS to each individual weapon, so for example a dagger with 1.5 speed is now a 1.53 speed, mighty weapon with 1.3 speed is now 1.33. There's a bunch of sources for this online, as well as just test it in your character screen.
Edited by StrifeCro#1914 on 9/24/2012 4:17 AM PDT
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So you´re saying that if a dagger has 11% weapon IAS that focused mind brings this to 14% weapon IAS? Would you mind posting one of these sources?

I admit I haven´t tested the Enchantress bonus effect but assumed it works just like all the other modifiers (gear, skills, dual-wield) beside weapon IAS.

I´ll look into that.

OK found something

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5568806068?page=1#0

So it´s apparently not 3% weapon IAS but rather +0.03 attacks per second...wow that´s just stupid.

Anyway, the breakpoints are still correct. I ´ve only used the enchantress here

14 ticks = 1.536 aps spear (1.2 aps + 10% IAS weapons master +15% IAS dual-wield + 3% enchantress)

With a flat +0.03 aps the resulting aps is 1.53 so the breakpoint is still likely 1.54. The other two cases of testing with the enchantress were 10 tps tornadoes that were not near the breakpoint.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/24/2012 4:49 AM PDT
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