Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

It felt like at 2.4786 was at 8.67 tps instead of 7.67 tps which is why I caught that bug in the first place. It feels alot different, I don't know the method you used to count the ticks as I cannot count them, they are too fast, but for some reason it is noticeably faster at that speed than lets say 2.4

Edit: or enchantress might be even more buggy than I thought, because it seems like when my enchantress is alive for .03 more IAS, using 1.5 dagger and Wotb(25) + Dual Wield (15) + 22 IAS on gear for 62 IAS, I hit the next breakpoint, whereas without enchantress alive, it goes back down to previous breakpoint. I tested it with 1.5 speed dagger with 67 ias and 66 ias both without enchantress and there is definitely a breakpoint there so your right about the breakpoints, I think enchantress behaves in a weird way though.
Edited by StrifeCro#1914 on 9/24/2012 7:58 AM PDT
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I was able to play the PTR yesterday for the first time due to the error 12 fix and did some tests, here´s the WW fury cost sequence. Tested by getting to 100 fury and then recorded the fury cost using fraps with the mouse on the fury globe.

100
97 3
95 2
93 2
91 2
88 3
86 2
84 2
82 2
80 2
77 3

75 2
73 2
71 2
68 3
66 2
64 2
62 2
59 3
57 2
55 2

53 2
50 3
48 2
46 2
44 2
41 3
39 2
37 2
35 2
33 2

30 3
28 2
26 2
24 2
21 3
19 2
17 2
15 2
13 2
10 3

8 2
6 2
4 2
1 3

The result is 2.25 (99/44) fury per tick on average. This means the WW fury cost (5.5 in 1.0.4) has been lowered at roughly the same rate (to 2.25/5.5 = 41%) as the tornado proc coefficient (0.08/0.2 = 40%).

On a related note, the lowered proc coefficient of tornadoes isn´t such a problem due to WW costing much less fury now and due to higher HP of monsters. I just had to adjust my sprint/ww technique a bit, but still, consider getting CH and IAS wherever you can. If they´re high enough, the problem becomes spending the excess fury to keep up Thrive on Chaos.
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Taken from Public Test Realm Patch 1.0.5 Notes:

  • Whirlwind
  • Fury cost from 16 to 10
  • Current cost is now a flat value per cycle + an additional cost based on attack speed. Changing this slightly so that the new continual cost is 7 flat + 3 per cycle. The end result is that the cost discrepancy between slow weapons and fast weapons has been greatly reduced.
  • So how does your tested fury spend translate to the changelog of Patch 1.0.5?
    I can see how you calculated the 2.25 per tick, but i don't get what blizzard means with a cycle which should cost 7 fury. What could also be interesting is at which attackspeed you made your tests, or is your tested value of "2.25 fury per tick" == "2.25 fury per hit" regardless of attackspeed?

    Still very confused about the upcomming changes :(
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    Note that it´s pretty much impossible to test the fury cost (+hit) other than with the mouse cursor on the globe because we have no globe numbers (like in D2). The only way I can think of is having a monster with enough hp locked somewhere in the lower right corner of the screen or something, but the results wouldn´t be as accurate due to the monster also damaging me = fury gain.

    So I can´t answer what exactly the cycle means (and their wording is confusing because they never said anything about how ww fury cost works), I just assume the fury cost I tested is fury per tick regardless of aps and I was able to compare it to the fury cost in 1.0.4.

    I´ll do some tests with other aps to see if it makes a difference.

    EDIT: OK the fury cost per tick is different for different aps

    I just tested a 1.00 aps 2H axe and it gave me flat 3 fury per tick.

    It seems as if WW fury cost now also scales with aps (not only tick frequency). The 2.25 average fury was dual wielding 1.77/2.04 aps

    fury aps
    100
    97 2.04->1.77->2.04
    95 1.77
    93 2.04
    91 1.77
    88 2.04

    EDIT 2: just rechecked patch 1.0.4 and back then it was the same fury cost sequence for all attacks per second values.

    So there´s definitely a change in 1.0.5 (PTR) in favour of higher attack speed as faster frequency WW ticks cost less than 3 fury. Base cost at lowest aps is 3 fury per tick.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/9/2012 5:52 AM PDT
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    Double post but this is kind of important for you dps freaks.

    Thanks to Twister and the gear he gave me on the PTR plus some stuff I bought, I was able to research two other tornado tick frequency breakpoints.

    3.34-3.99 attacks per second = 36 ticks over 3 seconds = 12 ticks per second
    4.00 and more attacks per second = 45 ticks over 3 seconds = 15 ticks per second


    The highest aps I got to was 4.386:
    1.50 aps main hand dagger
    18% weapon IAS (->1.77 aps)
    +0.24 aps echoing fury (-> 2.01 aps)
    +0.03 enchantress
    9% andariel´s visage
    9% lacuni prowlers
    9% gloves
    9% amulet
    9% ring
    9% ring
    9% tal rasha´s relentless pursuit
    6% pride of cassius
    6% zunimassa´s journey (legacy)

    I did not have a 9% witching hour (6% cassius instead) nor inna´s temperance (9%) so I was only 12% IAS off of max aps but noone in their right mind would ever use a white dagger like I did, more like 11% weapon IAS dagger should be considered as max:

    (1.665 + 0.25 echoing fury + 0.03 enchantress) * 2.27 = 4.41515 aps

    I was also able to finally understand how + attacks per second from echoing fury works. It´s a direct weapon aps increase that also gets boosted by IAS from gear. If there´s also IAS on the weapon itself, EF gets added after the initial weapon IAS calculation, so the formula looks like this:

    attacks per second = ((base weapon aps * weapon IAS) + (attacks per second from legendaries and enchantress)) * (gear IAS + skill IAS + dual wield IAS)

    Again, big thanks to Twister for the gear.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/9/2012 10:58 AM PDT
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    Double post but this is kind of important for you dps freaks.

    Thanks to Twister and the gear he gave me on the PTR plus some stuff I bought, I was able to research two other tornado tick frequency breakpoints.

    3.34-3.99 attacks per second = 36 ticks over 3 seconds = 12 ticks per second
    4.00 and more attacks per second = 45 ticks over 3 seconds = 15 ticks per second


    The highest aps I got to was 4.386:
    1.50 aps main hand dagger
    18% weapon IAS (->1.77 aps)
    +0.24 aps echoing fury (-> 2.01 aps)
    +0.03 enchantress
    9% andariel´s visage
    9% lacuni prowlers
    9% gloves
    9% amulet
    9% ring
    9% ring
    9% tal rasha´s relentless pursuit
    6% pride of cassius
    6% zunimassa´s journey (legacy)

    I did not have a 9% witching hour (6% cassius instead) nor inna´s temperance (9%) so I was only 12% IAS off of max aps but noone in their right mind would ever use a white dagger like I did, more like 11% weapon IAS dagger should be considered as max:

    (1.665 + 0.25 echoing fury + 0.03 enchantress) * 2.27 = 4.41515 aps

    I was also able to finally understand how + attacks per second from echoing fury works. It´s a direct weapon aps increase that also gets boosted by IAS from gear. If there´s also IAS on the weapon itself, EF gets added after the initial weapon IAS calculation, so the formula looks like this:

    attacks per second = ((base weapon aps * weapon IAS) + (attacks per second from legendaries and enchantress)) * (gear IAS + skill IAS + dual wield IAS)

    Again, big thanks to Twister for the gear.


    Nubtro, thank you for the insight and your continued research! Up until now I had assumed the maximum amount of ticks was 30 at 2.86 asp but it seems I will have to rethink my gearset and plans.
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    Did another WW fury cost test with the highest aps I could get.

    4.39 aps MH / 3.16 aps OH

    120
    118-116-115-113-111-110-108-106-105-103
    100-98-97-95-93-92-90-89-87-85
    84-82-80-79-77-75-74-72-70-69
    67-66-64-62-61-59-57-56-54-53
    51-49-48-46-44-43-41-39-38-36
    34-33-31-30-28-26-25-23-21-

    99 fury / 59 ticks = 1.678 fury per tick

    So, 1.0.5 (PTR) whirlwind fury cost is base 3 fury per tick at lowest aps and scales with aps (the more aps the less fury cost) down to around 1.678 fury per tick on average at highest aps. In 1.0.4 it was a flat 5.4-5.5 fury per tick on average no matter what aps you had.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/10/2012 4:24 AM PDT
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    Thanks.

    Also managed to work around the problem I mentioned earlier:

    Note that it´s pretty much impossible to test the fury cost (+hit) other than with the mouse cursor on the globe because we have no globe numbers (like in D2). The only way I can think of is having a monster with enough hp locked somewhere in the lower right corner of the screen or something, but the results wouldn´t be as accurate due to the monster also damaging me = fury gain.


    Now thanks to Azmodan and his fat body I can confirm that the WW fury cost I researched is indeed per tick (attack). I managed to both WW on a target damaging it while having the mouse cursor on the fury globe. Everytime the damage ticked, the fury globe reacted as well. I stunned him so I didn´t take damage for a second or two which gave me enough time to confirm the above with a slow-mo video.

    Not sure if people care that much about ww fury cost breakpoints but I´ll test a few aps to see if by chance the fury breakpoints don´t collide with the tick frequency ones.

    Here´s some tests (tried the 2.23 and 2.5 aps breakpoints):

    2.505 aps
    18-16-14-12-10-08-06-04-02-100 2.0
    98-96-94-92-91-89-87-85-83-81 1.9
    79-77-75-73-71-69-67-65-64-62 1.9
    60-58-56-54-52-50-48-46-44-42 2.0
    40-38-37-35-33-31-29-27-25-23 1.9
    97/50 = 1.94

    2.490 aps
    18-16-14-12-10-08-06-04-02-100 2.0
    98-96-94-92-90-89-87-85-83-81 1.9
    79-77-75-73-71-69-67-65-63-61 2.0
    59-58-56-54-52-50-48-46-44-42 1.9
    40-38-36-34-32-30-29-27-25-23 1.9
    97/50 = 1.94

    2.236 aps
    17-15-13-11-09-07-05-03-01-99 2.1
    97-95-93-91-89-87-85-83-81-79 2.0
    77-75-72-70-68-66-64-62-60-58 2.1
    56-54-52-50-48-46-44-42-40-38 2.0
    36-34-32-30-28-25-23-21-19-17 2.1
    103/50 = 2.06

    2.223 aps
    17-15-13-11-09-07-05-03-01-99 2.1
    97-95-93-91-89-87-85-83-81-78 2.1
    76-74-72-70-68-65-64-62-60-58 2.0
    56-54-52-50-48-46-44-42-40-37 2.1
    35-33-31-29-27-25-23-21-19-17 2.0
    103/50 = 2.06

    Average fury cost per tick each 10 WW ticks is at the end of the line. Average fury cost per tick for the first 50 WW ticks is at the end of each aps value. The scaling seems pretty linear to me so I won´t bother testing all possible aps fury costs. This should give players a basic idea how the scaling works.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/10/2012 5:27 AM PDT
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    Did another WW fury cost test with the highest aps I could get.

    4.39 aps MH / 3.16 aps OH

    120
    118-116-115-113-111-110-108-106-105-103
    100-98-97-95-93-92-90-89-87-85
    84-82-80-79-77-75-74-72-70-69
    67-66-64-62-61-59-57-56-54-53
    51-49-48-46-44-43-41-39-38-36
    34-33-31-30-28-26-25-23-21-

    99 fury / 59 ticks = 1.678 fury per tick

    So, 1.0.5 (PTR) whirlwind fury cost is base 3 fury per tick at lowest aps and scales with aps (the more aps the less fury cost) down to around 1.678 fury per tick on average at highest aps. In 1.0.4 it was a flat 5.4-5.5 fury per tick on average no matter what aps you had.


    This is somewhat surprising, was it a myth that higher asp/ticks contributed to higher ww fury cost in 1.04?

    With this new data in mind it seems high asp will actually make it that much harder to dump fury at a rate fast enough to gain time on the WoTB timer.

    Ideally you would want to gain fury at an immense rate but also be able to be able to burn it fast enough (over 25 over per second) in order to stall or gain time on the WoTB timer. How can this be achieved now that ww cost has been lowered and high ASP (ideal for gainning more fury) will actually decrease its cost?

    Also, have you used the same dagger in this series of test as the first series of test?
    Edited by Lorenze#1650 on 10/10/2012 7:53 AM PDT
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    Not a myth, well kind of. Before 1.0.5 each WW tick cost on average 5.4-5.5 fury, no matter what your aps was. I retested recently just to be sure on that one. X fury times number of ticks and due to higher aps -> higher tick frequency = more ticks -> faster fury drain. So for the average player it felt like more aps = much more fury cost but again it was linear.

    Yes you´ve probably noticed it yourself on the PTR that fast WW indeed kills Thrive on Chaos. It worked pretty nicely in 1.0.4, you didn´t have to spam BR/Sprint all the time...more like every two seconds or else you could get to 0 fast.

    Now we get 60% less fury from tornadoes and get the same amount from WW but burn much less from WW. This should help us in generating fury but it collides with ToC. I could calculate average fury generation and fury spending per second for some breakpoints but the more skilled people are able to do that themselves.

    Which dagger do you mean? I´ve tried various aps values both in 1.0.4 and 1.0.5 (PTR) and in 1.0.4 aps is irrelevant when it comes to fury cost per tick.

    -----
    By the way, if anyone cares, I just did a test regarding the mechanics behind REFLECT DAMAGE. It has been bugging me for a while, I´ll just post the results here as a bonus for those who follow this topic:

    5461 armor, 612 phys, 564 fire, 522 lightning
    746 / 85788 axe
    172 / 19778 dag
    179 / 20595 axe
    210 / 24100 dag
    139 / 15954 axe
    883 / 101481 dag 0.8701%
    675 / 77642 axe 0.8694%
    733 / 84275 dag 0.8698%
    812 / 93348 axe 0.8699%
    184 / 21201 dag 0.8679%
    792 / 91085 axe 0.8695%
    925 / 106396 dag 0.8694%
    769 / 88379 axe 0.8701%
    ------------------------------------
    5173 armor, 598 phys
    1148 / 125642 echo 0.9137%
    1177 / 128763 echo 0.9141%
    796 / 87075 echo 0.9142%
    832 / 91049 echo 0.9138%
    247 / 27041 echo 0.9134%

    LIGHTNING
    0.7 * 0.3658112 * 0.3763441
    = 9.6369621% dmg taken
    reflect = 9.0277412%

    FIRE
    0.7 * 0.3658112 * 0.3583618
    = 9.1764932% dmg taken
    reflect = 9.48%

    PHYSICAL (1)
    0.7 * 0.3658112 * 0.3398058252427184
    = 8.7013344% dmg taken
    reflect = 9.998466477811951%

    PHYSICAL (2)
    0.7 * 0.3784693 * 0.3450164
    = 9.1404681% dmg taken
    reflect = 9.99948788180772%

    Basically I tested if the reflect damage affix reflected damage depending on the element you´re attacking with, but it gives different results if I calculate with the corresponding elemental resistance. If I apply physical resistance, all calcs are correct and result in 10% reflected damage as physical.

    The affix reflects 10% of the damage done, lowered by barb mitigation, armor and physical resistance (did not have elite damage reduction but I assume that would lower it as well).

    Reflect damage is physical damage.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/10/2012 9:36 AM PDT
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    10/09/2012 05:14 AMPosted by Nubtro
    So I can´t answer what exactly the cycle means (and their wording is confusing because they never said anything about how ww fury cost works), I just assume the fury cost I tested is fury per tick regardless of aps and I was able to compare it to the fury cost in 1.0.4.

    I guess i can clarify now what a cycle means, as i've read this comment recently over on reddit:
    [...]
    Most channeling skills in the game (I don't know if all of them) use cycles to determine resource cost & damage. If you have 2 APS, you will go through 2 cycles per second.

    - source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1170k8/a_comprehensive_guide_to_the_double_tornado/c6jvawl

    Asuming the information is correct (EDIT: Nubtro pointed out this is not how its ingame - read his post below!), its rather easy to determine how much hits WW would do per second. Speaking in 1.04 terms, and asuming mainhand speed = offhand speed:
  • At 1.0 APS WW would do one cycle = 3 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of 5.5 fury => Total: 145% weapon damge for 15.5 fury per second
  • At 2.0 APS WW would do two cycles = 6 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of 5.5 fury => Total: 290% weapon damge for 31.0 fury per second
  • At 3.0 APS WW would do three cycles = 9 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of 5.5 fury => Total: 435% weapon damge for 46.5 fury per second
  • This means that there are no "breakpoints" where WW would get an additional hit, as the scaling will be linear - i.e.:
    At 1.8 APS WW will do 6 hits in: ((1/3) / 1.8) * 6 = 1.11 seconds at a cost of 31 fury.

    Edit: Thinking further about the changes to WW in 1.05, i would expect the following to be correct: (maybe you could check this on PTR?)
    Again, assuming mainhand speed = offhand speed for this:
  • At 1.0 APS WW would do one cycle = 3 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of (7+3)/3=3.333 fury => Total: 145% weapon damge for 10 fury per second
  • At 2.0 APS WW would do two cycles = 6 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of (7+6)/6=2.166 fury => Total: 290% weapon damge for 13 fury per second
  • At 3.0 APS WW would do three cycles = 9 hits per second
  • each hit for 48.33% weapon damage at a cost of (7+9)/9=1.777 fury => Total: 435% weapon damge for 16 fury per second
  • Edited by Twister#2339 on 10/11/2012 4:35 AM PDT
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    Hmm, I´d like to know where the guy has the cycle info from. I don´t blindly trust stuff without some kind of evidence.

    But OK, once and for all, I´ll try to figure out the WW tick frequency. It would be nice if some of you guys would give me ideas how to test it, more like which aps would give me a clear result whether there´s WW breakpoints or just linear cycles.

    Note that by confirming the fact that each WW tick projects on the fury globe yesterday, I´m now able to count the ticks without having to actualy hit something, just by having the mouse over the fury globe. The problem is that I have to start the fraps recording at the same time as I start WW and afterwards manually count the number of ticks over x seconds. The fraps timer shows just seconds so it´s not super accurate like with tornadoes and their fixed 3 seconds duration.

    I just did a 2 aps breakpoint test on the PTR.

    1.44 * 1.39 = 2.0016 aps

    second-fury globe-ticks-(total ticks)
    1s 113f 3t (3)
    2s 98f 7t (10)
    3s 85f 6t (16)
    4s 70f 7t (23)
    5s 57f 6t (29)
    6s 42f 7t (36)
    7s 26f 7t (43)
    8s 10f 7t (49.75)

    The last tick was about 4 frames after the clock hit 8 seconds.

    It seems as if the first second always gives you just 3 ticks but I´ll need to do another test to confirm this. After the initial second, I got more than 6 ticks per second, always closer to 7 than to 6. There was also a little step at 14-13 fury which I didn´t count (these happen).

    The result shows almost 47 ticks over 7 seconds if not counting the first second, which results in 6.7 ticks per second on average. Looking at my tornado tick frequency chart, 2 aps says 20/3 = 6.67 ticks per second.

    If the "cycle" theory was correct, I would get 6 ticks per second. So my initial test points more towards tornado breakpoints being applicable on WW as well but I´ll do another test with 1.99 aps to see if it´s really the case.

    EDIT:

    I was right, after all. As a bonus, I was able to figure out the way the whole thing works.

    1.5 * 1.33 = 1.995 aps

    1 sec & 6/60 frames - (135->128 fury) - 3 ticks (3 total)
    2 sec & 7/60 frames - (128->115 fury) - 6 ticks (9 total)
    3 sec & 7/60 frames - (115->102 fury) - 6 ticks (15 total)
    4 sec & 7/60 frames - (102->89 fury) - 6 ticks (21 total)
    5 sec & 7/60 frames - (89->76 fury) - 6 ticks (27 total)
    6 sec & 6/60 frames - (76->63 fury) - 6 ticks (33 total)
    7 sec & 6/60 frames - (63->50 fury) - 6 ticks (39 total)
    8 sec & 6/60 frames - (50->37 fury) - 6 ticks (45 total)

    Whirlwind has the exact same aps breakpoints as tornadoes. Also the game seems to run at 60fps (or at least fraps records at 60fps) and when I pause the recording and move frame by frame I´m able to count the exact.

    Just checked the previous video of 2aps. Ticks take 8-9-10 frames, example:
    89 fury
    87f 10 frames
    85f 9 frames
    83f 9 frames
    81f 9 frames
    78f 9 frames
    76f 9 frames
    74f 9 frames
    72f 9 frames
    70f 8 frames

    So it´s just like in D2 breakpoints mean less frames per tick. 9 frames per tick = 60/9 = 6.67 ticks per second, 10 frames per tick = 60/10 = 6 ticks per second.

    I´ll update the chart later.

    tl,dr:
    Both WW and RLTW tornado tick frequency scales with aps in the same way.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/11/2012 4:12 AM PDT
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    Hmm, I´d like to know where the guy has the cycle info from. I don´t blindly trust stuff without some kind of evidence.

    But OK, once and for all, I´ll try to figure out the WW tick frequency. It would be nice if some of you guys would give me ideas how to test it, more like which aps would give me a clear result whether there´s WW breakpoints or just linear cycles.
    I was able to recopy my account to the PTR today, so i've got more gear to spare for your tests:
    i.e: whielding two +18% IAS daggers along with 74% gear ias should result in an attackspeed of 3.3453 for main- and offhand. This will bring you just over the 12 ticks per second tick of Sprint - RltW.

    07/06/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Nubtro
    c) If you use a Spear without weapon IAS in main hand with Weapons Master and a Mace without weapon IAS in off-hand, the character screen will show the same (Weapons Master) boosted aps for both weapons, despite the fact that the Spear should be faster than the Mace. The game also applies this boosted aps for the Mace and you get the same swing speed with both weapons. This does not apply for any other weapons as off-hand. This also does not apply if there´s weapon IAS on either weapon. It´s probably a bug.

    As a sidenote: i recently tested how Spears are calculated with Weapons Master, and this (rather old) information seems no longer to be true.

    Taking your recently posted formular:
    attacks per second = ((base weapon aps * weapon IAS) + (attacks per second from legendaries and enchantress)) * (gear IAS + skill IAS + dual wield IAS)

    The bonus for spears/polearms turns out to be a plain +10 bonus on "skill IAS".
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    Trying to figure out the "first second" thing. Seems like the fraps clock starts at 0.5 seconds so the first second is not really a whole second.

    Thanks to Twister´s gear I was able to confirm that 3.3276 aps WW has a 6 frames per tick frequency (60/6 = 10 ticks per second) and 3.3453 aps WW has a 5 frames per tick frequency (60/5 = 12 ticks per second). This again confirms that the tornado and WW breakpoints are exactly the same.

    OK I´ll write down the exact sequence of the aps points I tested, listing each tick frame rate plus fury cost.

    APS = 1.995, starting at 135 fury
    1. 15 frames 132 fury (3)
    2. 10 frames 130 (2)
    3. 9 frames 128 (2)
    4. 10 frames 126 (2)
    5. 10 frames 124 (2)
    6. 10 frames 121 (3)
    7. 10 frames 119 (2)
    8. 11 frames 117 (2)
    9. 10 frames 115 (2)
    10. 9 frames 113 (2)
    11. 11 frames 111 (2)
    12. 9 frames 108 (3)
    13. 10 frames 106 (2)
    14. 10 frames 104 (2)
    15. 11 frames 102 (2)
    16. 9 frames 100 (2)
    17. 11 frames 98 (2)
    18. 10 frames 95 (3)
    19. 9 frames 93 (2)
    20. 10 frames 91 (2)
    21. 10 frames 89 (2)
    22. 10 frames 87 (2)
    23. 10 frames 85 (2)
    24. 10 frames 82 (3)
    25. 10 frames 80 (2)
    26. 10 frames 78 (2)
    27. 11 frames 76 (2)
    28. 10 frames 74 (2)
    29. 9 frames 72 (2)
    30. 10 frames 69 (3)
    31. 10 frames 67 (2)
    32. 10 frames 65 (2)
    33. 10 frames 63 (2)
    34. 10 frames 61 (2)
    35. 10 frames 59 (2)
    36. 14 frames 56 (3)
    37. 6 frames 54 (2)
    38. 10 frames 52 (2)
    39. 10 frames 50 (2)
    40. 10 frames 48 (2)

    results:
    10 frames per tick = 6 ticks per second
    2.175 average fury per tick

    APS = 2.0016, starting at 120 fury
    1. 12 frames 117 fury (3)
    2. 9 frames 115 (2)
    3. 9 frames 113 (2)
    4. 9 frames 111 (2)
    5. 9 frames 109 (2)
    6. 9 frames 107 (2)
    7. 9 frames 104 (3)
    8. 9 frames 102 (2)
    9. 9 frames 100 (2)
    10. 9 frames 98 (2)
    11. 8 frames 96 (2)
    12. 9 frames 94 (2)
    13. 10 frames 91 (3)
    14. 8 frames 89 (2)
    15. 10 frames 87 (2)
    16. 9 frames 85 (2)
    17. 9 frames 83 (2)
    18. 9 frames 81 (2)
    19. 9 frames 78 (3)
    20. 9 frames 76 (2)
    21. 9 frames 74 (2)
    22. 9 frames 72 (2)
    23. 8 frames 70 (2)
    24. 9 frames 68 (2)
    25. 10 frames 65 (3)
    26. 9 frames 63 (2)
    27. 9 frames 61 (2)
    28. 9 frames 59 (2)
    29. 9 frames 57 (2)
    30. 9 frames 55 (2)
    31. 9 frames 52 (2)
    32. 8 frames 50 (2)
    33. 9 frames 48 (2)
    34. 9 frames 46 (2)
    35. 9 frames 44 (2)
    36. 10 frames 42 (2)
    37. 11 frames 39 (3)
    38. 7 frames 37 (2)
    39. 9 frames 35 (2)
    40. 9 frames 33 (2)

    results:
    9 frames per tick = 6.67 ticks per second
    2.175 average fury per tick

    Note that I´m still figuring out the first tick. Just tested 2.002 aps while also having the in-game frame rate displayed. The first tick now took 14 frames, if I counted the displayed WW icon click, 15. Seems like the game frame rate has to do something with the tick frame values jumping (not staying a stable 9 frames per tick at this aps).

    Seems like the first tick takes longer than the rest or maybe the attack begins a few frames after clicking WW. It shouldn´t matter though, for our purposes, we can just ignore the first tick.

    I´ll test different aps weapons in main hand and off-hand now.

    APS = 2.483 / 3.3807

    starting at 120 fury
    1. 15 frames 118
    2. 6 116
    3. 4 114
    4. 6 112
    5. 4 111
    6. 5 109
    7. 6 107
    8. 4 105
    9. 5 103
    10. 6 101
    11. 4 100
    12. 5 98
    13. 5 96
    14. 5 94
    15. 6 92
    16. 4 90
    17. 5 89
    18. 5 87
    19. 6 85
    20. 4 83
    21. 5 82
    22. 5 80
    23. 5 78
    24. 6 76
    25. 4 74
    26. 5 72
    27. 5 71
    28. 5 69
    29. 5 67
    30. 5 65
    31. 5 63
    32. 5 61
    33. 5 60
    34. 5 58
    35. 5 56
    36. 5 54
    37. 5 52
    38. 5 51
    39. 5 49
    40. 6 47

    Hmm looks like a need a larger frame difference as this 5 frames seemed like an average of the two 4f and 6f frequencies.

    Hmm, weird.

    APS = 1.524 (13 frames) / 2.2479 (8 frames)

    1. 14 117
    2. 13 115
    3. 13 112
    4. 12 110
    5. 25 108
    6. 2 106
    7. 13 103
    8. 13 101
    9. 12 99
    10. 14 97
    11. 12 94
    12. 14 92
    13. 12 90
    14. 13 88
    15. 14 85
    16. 13 83
    17. 12 80
    18. 13 78
    19. 13 76
    20. 13 74

    Ticks at main hand frequency only...

    SWITCHED WEAPONS, now faster in main hand.

    frames per tick
    14-7-9-7-9-8-8-7-8-9
    8-8-7-8-9-8-8-8-8-8

    fury per tick
    17-15-13-10-08-06-04-01-99-97
    95-92-90-88-85-83-81-78-76-74

    Both tick frequency and fury cost changed. WW seems to depend on main hand.

    SWUNG WITH OFF HAND

    frames per tick
    14-8-8-7-9-8-8-8-8-10
    7-12-3-9-7-9-7-8-8-8

    fury per tick
    17-15-13-10-08-06-04-01-99-97
    95-92-90-88-85-83-81-78-76-74

    Still the same. I´ll test a different kind of MH/OH combination later but it seems as if WW tick frequency and fury cost depended on the MH.

    Now I´ll have to retest tornadoes on the PTR whether the swing with off hand wasn´t changed.

    EDIT: I think I finally figured it out, although I don´t like it...

    MH: 1.668 aps (11 or 12 frames per tick)
    OH: 2.502 aps (7 frames per tick)

    frames per tick
    14-9-5-7-7-7-7-7-7-7
    7-8-6-8-8-7-7-6-7-7
    7 avg

    fury per tick
    18-15-13-11-09-07-05-02-00-98
    96-94-92-89-87-85-83-81-79-76
    2.2 avg
    --------------------------------------------
    MH: 2.502 aps (7 frames per tick)
    OH: 1.668 aps (11 or 12 frames per tick)

    last swing MH
    frames per tick
    14-12-11-11-11-15-6-23-2-8
    11-12-10-10-12-11-10-12-11

    fury cost per tick
    17-15-13-11-08-07-04-02-00-98
    95-94-91-89-87-85-82-81-78-76
    2.2 avg

    last swing MH
    frames per tick
    16-12-9-12-12-9-12-9-12-10
    12-11-11-11-11-11-11-11-10

    fury cost per tick
    17-15-13-11-08-07-04-02-00-98
    95-94-91-89-87-85-82-81-78-76
    2.2 avg

    last swing OH
    16-8-6-10-3-7-9-5-7-10
    10-2-6-11-4-6-8-7-7-7-
    7-7-7-7-6-7-7-7-7-7
    7 avg

    MH: 4.4268
    OH: 3.1248
    swung with OH
    frames per tick
    14-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 36/9
    3-9-4-3-5-4-3-5-4-4 44/10
    4-8-1-3-6-2-4-4-4-4 36/10
    5-4-4-3-4-4-5-3-4-4 40/10
    4 avg

    fury cost per tick (starting at 70 fury)
    68-66-65-63-61-60-58-56-55-53
    52-48-47-45-43-42-40-39-37-35
    33-32-30-29-27-25-24-22-20-19
    17-16-14-12-11-09-07-06-04-02
    1.7 avg

    The video froze for a bit there between 52 and 48. There should´ve been a 50 tick which would result in 1.66 average fury per tick.

    MH: 4.4472
    OH: 3.1392
    swung with OH
    frames per tick
    14-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 36/9
    4-4-4-4-4-5-3-4-5-4 41/10
    4-3-5-3-4-4-4-4-5-3 39/10
    4-5-3-4-4-4-4-4-3-5 40/10
    4 4/1
    4 avg

    fury cost per tick (starting at 70 fury)
    68-66-65-63-61-60-58-56-55-53
    52-50-48-47-45-43-42-40-39-37
    35-34-32-30-29-27-25-24-22-20
    19-17-16-14-12-11-09-07-06-04
    03
    1.634 avg

    Well, seems like the developers play mindgames with us tornado freaks...

    When dual-wielding, the tick frequency mechanics of WW is exactly the opposite of Sprint RLTW. Sprint uses the tick frequency of the weapon you swung with last before using Sprint, WW uses the tick frequency (and fury cost) of the weapon you are about to swing with. This is because the weapon you´re about to swing with will actually tick first during WW.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/11/2012 9:39 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    So, how would you all like a 1.0.5 (PTR) update like this?

    SUMMARY:

    SPRINT - Run Like the Wind

    1. Tornadoes do 20% main hand base weapon damage per tick. Base weapon damage is the value below DPS in the weapon window. A simplified damage formula (per tick) = 0.2 * (base weapon damage) * (1 + strength/100) * (1 + sum of damage bonuses from skills and gear/100). A critical hit then multiplies the result by (1 + total critical hit damage/100).
    2. Tornadoes have a 0.08 (down from 0.2) proc coefficient, which means that:
    a ) each tornado tick heals you for 8% of your total life on hit value,
    b ) each tornado tick has a 8% chance to generate 3 fury when you equip a Mighty Weapon in your main hand and use the passive skill Weapons Master,
    c ) each tornado tick has a 8% chance to activate an on hit proc effect from a legendary weapon,
    d ) each tornado Critical Hit has a 8% chance to:
    - generate 15 fury when Into the Fray is active,
    - create a blood explosion when Bloodshed or Slaughter is active.
    3. Tornado tick frequency scales with attack per second (chart below).
    4. When dual-wielding, tornado tick frequency depends on the attacks per second (aps) of the last weapon swung before using Sprint

    WHIRLWIND

    1. WW does 145%/3 (48.33%) base weapon damage per tick. Volcanic Eruption rune does 188%/3 (62.67%) base weapon damage per tick. The damage formula is the same as for tornadoes, just change the 0.2 modifier to 0.4833 or 0.6267 depending on what rune you use.
    2. WW has a 0.13 proc coefficient. The effects are the same as with Tornadoes, but they now have a higher probability (13%) to happen.
    3. WW tick frequency scales with aps the same way tornado tick frequency does, they even have the same breakpoints.
    4. WW fury cost scales with aps; the more aps you have the less fury it costs per tick. The fury cost ranges from 3 fury per tick at the lowest aps to 1.634 fury per tick at 4.4472 aps. You´ll find the average fury cost per tick values on tick frequency breakpoints below (tbd).
    5. When dual-wielding:
    a) WW alternates between weapons to deal damage beginning with the weapon you are about to swing before using WW,
    b) WW tick frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing not the weapon you swung before using WW (exact opposite of Sprint),
    c) WW fury cost per tick (for the whole duration of WW until you stop spinning) depends on the weapon you are about to swing before using WW. It does not alternate between the weapons and their individual WW fury cost.

    WHIRLWIND/SPRINT RLTW FREQUENCY FORMULAS:

    Tick frame length = (20 / aps); rounded down to the nearest whole number
    The tornado tick formula = (180 / frame length); rounded up to the nearest whole number
    Ticks per second = (60 / frame length)

    ATTACKS PER SECOND - FRAME LENGTH - TICK FREQUENCY - # OF TORNADO TICKS

    0.90000-0.90908 aps - 22 frames per tick - 2.73 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    0.90909-0.95237 aps - 21 frames per tick - 2.86 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    0.95238-1.00000 aps - 20 frames per tick - 3.00 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    1.00001-1.05262 aps - 19 frames per tick - 3.16 ticks per second - 10 ticks
    1.05263-1.11111 aps - 18 frames per tick - 3.33 ticks per second - 10 ticks
    1.11112-1.17647 aps - 17 frames per tick - 3.53 ticks per second - 11 ticks
    1.17648-1.25000 aps - 16 frames per tick - 3.75 ticks per second - 12 ticks
    1.25001-1.33333 aps - 15 frames per tick - 4.00 ticks per second - 12 ticks
    1.33334-1.42857 aps - 14 frames per tick - 4.29 ticks per second - 13 ticks
    1.42858-1.53846 aps - 13 frames per tick - 4.62 ticks per second - 14 ticks
    1.53847-1.66666 aps - 12 frames per tick - 5.00 ticks per second - 15 ticks
    1.66667-1.81818 aps - 11 frames per tick - 5.45 ticks per second - 17 ticks
    1.81819-1.99999 aps - 10 frames per tick - 6.00 ticks per second - 18 ticks
    2.00000-2.22222 aps - 9 frames per tick - 6.67 ticks per second - 20 ticks
    2.22223-2.49999 aps - 8 frames per tick - 7.50 ticks per second - 23 ticks
    2.50000-2.85714 aps - 7 frames per tick - 8.57 ticks per second - 26 ticks
    2.85715-3.33333 aps - 6 frames per tick - 10.0 ticks per second - 30 ticks
    3.33334-4.00000 aps - 5 frames per tick - 12.0 ticks per second - 36 ticks
    4.00001-6.66666 aps - 4 frames per tick - 15.0 ticks per second - 45 ticks
    theoretical breakpoints
    6.66667-10.0000 aps - 3 frames per tick - 20.0 ticks per second - 60 ticks
    10.0001-19.9999 aps - 2 frames per tick - 30.0 ticks per second - 90 ticks
    >= 20.0000 aps - 1 frame per tick - 60.0 ticks per second - 180 ticks

    The most accurate way to describe the mechanics is as follows:

    22 frames per tick: 22 =< (20 / aps)
    21 frames per tick: 21 =< (20 / aps) < 22
    20 frames per tick: 20 =< (20 / aps) < 21
    19 frames per tick: 19 =< (20 / aps) < 20
    18 frames per tick: 18 =< (20 / aps) < 19
    17 frames per tick: 17 =< (20 / aps) < 18
    16 frames per tick: 16 =< (20 / aps) < 17
    15 frames per tick: 15 =< (20 / aps) < 16
    14 frames per tick: 14 =< (20 / aps) < 15
    13 frames per tick: 13 =< (20 / aps) < 14
    12 frames per tick: 12 =< (20 / aps) < 13
    11 frames per tick: 11 =< (20 / aps) < 12
    10 frames per tick: 10 =< (20 / aps) < 11
    9 frames per tick: 9 =< (20 / aps) < 10
    8 frames per tick: 8 =< (20 / aps) < 9
    7 frames per tick: 7 =< (20 / aps) < 8
    6 frames per tick: 6 =< (20 / aps) < 7
    5 frames per tick: 5 =< (20 / aps) < 6
    4 frames per tick: 4 =< (20 / aps) < 5
    3 frames per tick: 3 =< (20 / aps) < 4
    2 frames per tick: 2 =< (20 / aps) < 3
    1 frame per tick: 1 =< (20 / aps) < 2

    You don´t need to round down anything if you apply the above chart.

    Notes:

    1. You have to calculate your exact attacks per second value manually as the ingame character screen is rounding the values and can be misleading when applied to this chart.

    Attacks per second formula = ((base weapon aps * weapon IAS) + (attacks per second from legendaries and enchantress)) * (gear IAS + skill IAS + dual wield IAS)

    2. The initial (first) WW tick has a different value than the rest. It is unknown why, but it´s lower than usual on slower weapons (5 frames on slowest) and higher than usual on faster weapons (15 frames on fastest). For the purpose of utilizing the chart, ignore the first tick.

    ------------
    Did I miss some kind of information? Also should I rename the topic now that I´ve also researched Whirlwind?

    Note that I´ll add the average fury cost per WW tick at breakpoint values when I have them, it might take a few days.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/12/2012 7:31 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    Just one word: Awesome!
    Edited by Twister#2339 on 10/12/2012 1:10 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    OK here´s the thing, I figured out the exact way to calculate frequencies and breakpoints, you could call this one "exact mechanics".

    WHIRLWIND & SPRINT RLTW FREQUENCY FORMULAS:

    Tick frame length = (20 / aps); rounded down to the nearest whole number
    The tornado tick formula = (180 / frame length); rounded up to the nearest whole number
    Ticks per second = (60 / frame length)

    Note that the game usually runs at 60 frames per second.

    ATTACKS PER SECOND - FRAME LENGTH - TICK FREQUENCY - # OF TORNADO TICKS
    0.90000-0.90908 aps - 22 frames per tick - 2.73 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    0.90909-0.95237 aps - 21 frames per tick - 2.86 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    0.95238-1.00000 aps - 20 frames per tick - 3.00 ticks per second - 9 ticks
    1.00001-1.05262 aps - 19 frames per tick - 3.16 ticks per second - 10 ticks
    1.05263-1.11111 aps - 18 frames per tick - 3.33 ticks per second - 10 ticks
    1.11112-1.17647 aps - 17 frames per tick - 3.53 ticks per second - 11 ticks
    1.17648-1.25000 aps - 16 frames per tick - 3.75 ticks per second - 12 ticks
    1.25001-1.33333 aps - 15 frames per tick - 4.00 ticks per second - 12 ticks
    1.33334-1.42857 aps - 14 frames per tick - 4.29 ticks per second - 13 ticks
    1.42858-1.53846 aps - 13 frames per tick - 4.62 ticks per second - 14 ticks
    1.53847-1.66666 aps - 12 frames per tick - 5.00 ticks per second - 15 ticks
    1.66667-1.81818 aps - 11 frames per tick - 5.45 ticks per second - 17 ticks
    1.81819-1.99999 aps - 10 frames per tick - 6.00 ticks per second - 18 ticks
    2.00000-2.22222 aps - 9 frames per tick - 6.67 ticks per second - 20 ticks
    2.22223-2.49999 aps - 8 frames per tick - 7.50 ticks per second - 23 ticks
    2.50000-2.85714 aps - 7 frames per tick - 8.57 ticks per second - 26 ticks
    2.85715-3.33333 aps - 6 frames per tick - 10.0 ticks per second - 30 ticks
    3.33334-4.00000 aps - 5 frames per tick - 12.0 ticks per second - 36 ticks
    4.00001-6.66666 aps - 4 frames per tick - 15.0 ticks per second - 45 ticks
    theoretical breakpoints
    6.66667-10.0000 aps - 3 frames per tick - 20.0 ticks per second - 60 ticks
    10.0001-19.9999 aps - 2 frames per tick - 30.0 ticks per second - 90 ticks
    >= 20.0000 aps - 1 frame per tick - 60.0 ticks per second - 180 ticks

    The most accurate way to describe the mechanics is as follows:

    22 frames per tick: 22 =< (20 / aps)
    21 frames per tick: 21 =< (20 / aps) < 22
    20 frames per tick: 20 =< (20 / aps) < 21
    19 frames per tick: 19 =< (20 / aps) < 20
    18 frames per tick: 18 =< (20 / aps) < 19
    17 frames per tick: 17 =< (20 / aps) < 18
    16 frames per tick: 16 =< (20 / aps) < 17
    15 frames per tick: 15 =< (20 / aps) < 16
    14 frames per tick: 14 =< (20 / aps) < 15
    13 frames per tick: 13 =< (20 / aps) < 14
    12 frames per tick: 12 =< (20 / aps) < 13
    11 frames per tick: 11 =< (20 / aps) < 12
    10 frames per tick: 10 =< (20 / aps) < 11
    9 frames per tick: 9 =< (20 / aps) < 10
    8 frames per tick: 8 =< (20 / aps) < 9
    7 frames per tick: 7 =< (20 / aps) < 8
    6 frames per tick: 6 =< (20 / aps) < 7
    5 frames per tick: 5 =< (20 / aps) < 6
    4 frames per tick: 4 =< (20 / aps) < 5
    3 frames per tick: 3 =< (20 / aps) < 4
    2 frames per tick: 2 =< (20 / aps) < 3
    1 frame per tick: 1 =< (20 / aps) < 2

    You don´t need to round down anything if you apply the above chart.

    ----
    Next I´ll work with Twister on figuring out the WW fury cost scaling.
    Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/12/2012 7:41 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    Amazing work you've essentially formalized grand unified theory for DT WW. WW asp breakpoints have been bugging me for a long time and blizzard was kind enough to sync it perfectly to rltw's. Its nice to see they work on such a simple but elegant formula.

    Does ww essentially "hit" as many times as rltw for a given breakpoint or is that an oversimplification?

    In terms of overall damage output, what % is each element contributing?
    Say you have average weapon damage of 100k mainhand , 100k offhand and 26/26 ticks for both.

    Mainhand WW %
    Offhand WW %
    Mainhand RLTW %

    I always believed it was something like (20,20,60) with RLTW doing most of the damage (based solely on mainhand damage) and your OH base damage was only contributing 20% for half of WW swings. Meaning your overall damage is actually higher with a low base damage OH with mods like CD and str than one with high base damage but less CD/str.
    Reply Quote

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