Diablo® III

WW & Sprint RLTW mechanics (RoS update)

The last few days with you have been very interesting, mostly the part when you came up with the scaling on a by frame basis. Though with the comeback of error 12 on the PTR it's quite annoying that we can't test anymore. Yet I still hope that you only need to confirm the assumptions we allready made about the WW fury cost scaling formula once the patch hits.

I'd like to use this way to thank you for the nice contact and the continuous, enormous effort you put into this investigation.
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Thank you very much for your informative post OP~!

I dw using Echoing Fury with 300 Spear, what is the breakpoint after" +37% IAS gear = +52% total IAS = 1.824 aps = 18 ticks (6 per second)"?

Thank you!
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Nubtro,

Based on what you have written, it appears that when you WW and sprint simultaneously, two different ticks per second are used. The last weapon swung dictates the ticks per second (tps) for tornadoes spawned and the next weapon swung dictates tps for WW. Your post implies that the two ticks being used DO NOT SWAP or change value until you use a skill like bash (or get sloppy like me and WW to 0 fury and take a single swing at a monster).

Please correct me if I am wrong!! I think this is an incredibly elegant way that the designers have come up with to balance out the practice of the offhand 'stat stick' without making it useless.

Assuming what I have concluded above is correct ---

Total damage per second for a WW/tornado barb is actually:

{ t1 x (# of monster/tornado contacts) x 0.2 x MH damage } + {t2 x (# of monster/WW contacts) x 0.4833 x (MH + OH damage) / 2 }

Where t1 = ticks per second of last weapon swung and t2 = ticks per second of other weapon. So at any given time, you will be doing one of two DPS values, depending on what weapon you swung last, as you hold down WW and drop tornadoes.

The result here is you can use a fast offhand dagger with great stats to boost t1 as much as possible and MH damage swings. This is great for 1.0.4 style play -- blowing up trash as your sprint by, WW used mainly to travel and on elites (who are very easy anyway). Doing this has no negative effects on tornado damage.

HOWEVER, the offhand weapon does greatly influence your WW dps. It also makes your DPS done with both tornado AND WW very sensitive to what you do while bashing or if you run out of fury and take a single swing.

I have personal experience with this. Two different offhands:
1.5 aps dagger
170 str
60% chd and socket
750ish dps
2.7% steal

and

1.2 aps mace
290 str
socket
850 dps
2.7% steal

Now, these two weapons gave approximately the same character sheet damage. But, my tornadoes were significantly stronger with the dagger. When I traded for the mace, my tornado damage went down, but WW damage felt much more reliable with better healing. Since I generally bash to full fury, then WW through packs, leaving tornadoes behind, the mace ended up being a superior weapon overall. I don't track which weapon I swing and since the APS matches between weapons I get very consistent damage and healing from both tornadoes and WW use.

After switching to the mace, I also stopped having moments where I felt like WW wasn't really working or my damage suddenly crapped out. When I used the dagger, I'd often check to make sure I hadn't vendored a weapon, swapping in a bad weapon I had just found. What I now understand was happening is I had swung last with a different weapon, making WW much less effective.

Anyway, my conclusion here is that the offhand stat stick weapon suits the 1.0.4 playstyle (Alkazier) where all killing is tornado-based and you can feasibly destroy monsters with tornadoes only. But ---

I think it is a disservice to new barbs to recommend a significant APS mismatch between main and off hand - at least without clearly communicating how it will make your damage done depend greatly on last swung weapon. I also think that Lorenze's formula for total DPS is misleading (even ignoring the idea that WW is hitting a single target only). With a significant APS mismatch, you never do damage based on the tick average, but one of two different values where WW is much stronger or tornadoes are much stronger. Of course then the weighting factors you put on each component of damage will greatly influence the overall dps you calculate.
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@ Schatten: to calculate the IAS on gear you need for a certain breakpoint, divide 20 by the tick frame length that you want and then divide the results by your weapon aps.

Example a 1.45 aps echoing fury (+0.25 aps) and 1.45 aps three hundredth spear (+0.25 aps) and I want them to achieve

7 frames per tick: 7 =< (20 / aps) < 8
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 frames per tick - 8.57 ticks per second - 26 ticks

You could either straight up calc 2.50001 / 1.45 = 1.724 = +73% IAS on gear (you have to always round up the result because rounding down would be below the breakpoint)

Or by applying the more accurate formula you need your aps to be higher that 20/8 to achieve 7 frames, so 20/8 = 2.5 and your IAS has to be higher than 2.5/1.45 = 1.724137931034483

This might be a little bit confusing for the average player so just apply the first simple formula (aps needed for breakpoint according to the chart divided by your weapon aps, round up the result).

@ Jim: I couldn´t have said it better myself.

Thanks for reading the first post thoroughly and understanding the what you call elegant way of the mechanics.

1. Yes if you click Sprint and then hold WW they will tick at the opposite frequencies:
- swing with MH, sprint using aps of MH, WW using aps of OH
- swing with OH, sprint using aps of OH, WW using aps of MH

Your formula is precise (more accurate) but Lorenze asked me for a basic one incase of both weapons having the same frequency.

But basically there´s so much stuff going on in a battle and most people are busy keeping up ToC so that noone would bother to purposely hit with the weapon first that gives you slightly more overall damage in the following seconds you´ll spend spinning around.

2. Maybe you´ve noticed, but I currently don´t give advice as to what weapon choices to make. If at all, I say try to achieve the highest possible breakpoint for each weapon with the least IAS.

What needs to be said is that the first version of the topic was focused on Sprint tornadoes that I had almost the exact data of based on ingame tests and I only assumed WW worked on the same breakpoint scale based on my observations. So back then I said from a tornado focused perspective, to maximize tornado damage you´d use a significant aps mismatch ...etc.

And as you correctly pointed out, 1.0.4 was dominated by tornado damage proven by Alkaizer and many others so I wasn´t wrong on that one.

3. Now with the lowered WW cost, more monster HP due to MP levels in 1.0.5 and increased WW damage, it becomes obvious that to maximize your damage potential, your OH damage is also something one should look at.

At the end of the day, we won´t be able to calculate the exact damage of the RLTW/WW fusion because everything happens in real time, various number of monsters, tornadoes, how you spin and what you hit with your attacks, if you stop and bash in the middle of it etc.

But yes, in a ideal case of not swinging between clicking sprint and WW, your formula is accurate.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/16/2012 11:59 PM PDT
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i really like the fact you guys calculate everything, but could you also just sum it up and tell us people who dont understand maths just whats best to use?

would be great if you could.

so if i understand correctly, get slow mainhand, fast offhand, and alot of ias items?
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@Hakaog: Yeah, basically:

1. faster tick frequency off hand increases your tornado damage whenever you swing with it before using sprint

2. the dps (first number when you look at a weapon) of the two shouldn´t be too much apart because a large portion of 1.0.5 damage comes from WW, half of WW damage is off hand

3. the more IAS the better but just enough to achieve the next tick frequency breakpoint you want (ideally for both weapons)
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1. Yes if you click Sprint and then hold WW they will tick at the opposite frequencies:
- swing with MH, sprint using aps of MH, WW using aps of OH
- swing with OH, sprint using aps of OH, WW using aps of MH

Your formula is precise (more accurate) but Lorenze asked me for a basic one incase of both weapons having the same frequency.

But basically there´s so much stuff going on in a battle and most people are busy keeping up ToC so that noone would bother to purposely hit with the weapon first that gives you slightly more overall damage in the following seconds you´ll spend spinning around.


i thought both weaps alternate when WWing.. was this always the case even before 1.04?
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I guess so but didn´t test it backs then. I think they way it is coded right now is simpler for the developers than to apply various tick frequencies during WW. Now the frequency is decided when you click WW and stays until you stop.

WW still alternates weapons for damage though.
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I greatly appreciate your research but i am still a bit confused on how to calculate my aps and nado tick rate.

If you could be so kind as to quickly break down how many ticks i have with current setup and how many more IAS from gear i need to reach next breakpoints - i would greatly appreciate it.
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I know I'm probably gonna get trolled to death for this, BUT Whirlwind Barb's are the gayest thing I have ever seen in this game. YES, it may work to kill stuff, but I just can't handle running around like a transgender ballerina on crack. It completely kills any feeling of being a badass deathdealer with the stupid spinning around like a merry go round.

TBH stupidest method I have ever seen for a Barbarian mechanic.
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Maevar you meant you´re gonna get bashed as you´re the one trolling here but anyway, I haven´t designed the game nor WW and Sprint mechanics so you should address your criticism elsewhere. Not sure why you felt the need to post in this topic, but I don´t care.

Feel free to have fun using other Barb skills, noone´s forcing you to use WW.

Kane I´m not planning to open a "let me calc your breakpoints" service here. The mechanics and formulas are there and they´re really not that difficult to use.

Really, you´re dual-wielding (15% IAS) a 1.20 aps mace and a 1.50 aps dagger with a 9% IAS Lacuni and have Thrive on Chaos up (25% IAS) which means your MH aps is 1.20 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 1.788 and your OH aps is 1.50 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 2.235 which gives us the following frequencies according to the chart

1.66667-1.81818 aps - 11 frames per tick - 5.45 ticks per second - 17 ticks
2.22223-2.50000 aps - 8 frames per tick - 7.50 ticks per second - 23 ticks

if you want the next breakpoints

1.81819-2.00000 aps - 10 frames per tick - 6.00 ticks per second - 18 ticks
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 frames per tick - 8.57 ticks per second - 26 ticks

You divide the breakpoint (1.81819) by the weapon aps (1.20) which results in 1.5151583 and if you substract 1 from this number you get 0.5151583 and then multiply by 100 and round up you get how much % IAS you need for that breakpoint, in this case 52%. You already have 49% (15% DW + 9% lacuni + 25% WotB) so adding 3% IAS somewhere on your gear will let your MH achieve the 6 tps breakpoint. Do the same for OH (2.50001 / 1.50).

I´m considering adding a breakpoint calculator to the first post for people who can´t comprehend simple math, I´ll ask Twister if his spreadsheet is ready.

EDIT: Updated the first post with another proc coefficient effect - the lowering of Overpower cooldown by 1 second on a CH and also the following fact that was implied before but wasn´t clearly stated (as pointed out by Jim):

You may have noticed that the tick frequency source when dual wielding is different for Sprint and WW. Sprint frequency depends on the weapon you swung last before sprinting while WW frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing (not the weapon you swung last before WW). If you click both skills at the same time and if the MH/OH tick frequencies are different, Sprint and WW will tick at different frequencies.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 10/25/2012 1:59 AM PDT
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thank you again Nubtro.

i figured it out on my own later on, just needed confirmation i'm on the correct path with my calculations.

this is really an amazing research done by you, almost like a bible for nado/ww barbs.

cheers mate.
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wrong post
Edited by Cloud9#1256 on 10/27/2012 1:14 AM PDT
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@OP

Great post. I have a good amount of IAS and use an axe (1.42) and dagger (1.5) which have proven quite effective..Thanks for helping me understand the mechanics.
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100 Pandaren Monk
17835
Posts: 203
Maevar you meant you´re gonna get bashed as you´re the one trolling here but anyway, I haven´t designed the game nor WW and Sprint mechanics so you should address your criticism elsewhere. Not sure why you felt the need to post in this topic, but I don´t care.

Feel free to have fun using other Barb skills, noone´s forcing you to use WW.

Kane I´m not planning to open a "let me calc your breakpoints" service here. The mechanics and formulas are there and they´re really not that difficult to use.

Really, you´re dual-wielding (15% IAS) a 1.20 aps mace and a 1.50 aps dagger with a 9% IAS Lacuni and have Thrive on Chaos up (25% IAS) which means your MH aps is 1.20 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 1.788 and your OH aps is 1.50 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.15 + 0.25) = 2.235 which gives us the following frequencies according to the chart

1.66667-1.81818 aps - 11 frames per tick - 5.45 ticks per second - 17 ticks
2.22223-2.50000 aps - 8 frames per tick - 7.50 ticks per second - 23 ticks

if you want the next breakpoints

1.81819-2.00000 aps - 10 frames per tick - 6.00 ticks per second - 18 ticks
2.50001-2.85714 aps - 7 frames per tick - 8.57 ticks per second - 26 ticks

You divide the breakpoint (1.81819) by the weapon aps (1.20) which results in 1.5151583 and if you substract 1 from this number you get 0.5151583 and then multiply by 100 and round up you get how much % IAS you need for that breakpoint, in this case 52%. You already have 49% (15% DW + 9% lacuni + 25% WotB) so adding 3% IAS somewhere on your gear will let your MH achieve the 6 tps breakpoint. Do the same for OH (2.50001 / 1.50).

I´m considering adding a breakpoint calculator to the first post for people who can´t comprehend simple math, I´ll ask Twister if his spreadsheet is ready.

EDIT: Updated the first post with another proc coefficient effect - the lowering of Overpower cooldown by 1 second on a CH and also the following fact that was implied before but wasn´t clearly stated (as pointed out by Jim):

You may have noticed that the tick frequency source when dual wielding is different for Sprint and WW. Sprint frequency depends on the weapon you swung last before sprinting while WW frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing (not the weapon you swung last before WW). If you click both skills at the same time and if the MH/OH tick frequencies are different, Sprint and WW will tick at different frequencies.


your example was quite helpful thanks. Great job with the research
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Nice thred. Bump + request sticky
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Bookmarked for future reference.
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added Twister´s breakpoint calculator to the first post (thanks man)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=0

for those who can´t calculate stuff manually :)

enjoy
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epic.

Thank you cause I read this before I rolled barb.
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nvm
Edited by Sven#1755 on 11/9/2012 9:32 AM PST
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