Diablo® III

Follow-Up Points

(Locked)

Frankly, I'm not sure the D3 team understand's itemization and what make's a game like this fun in regards to it. They argue that IAS wasn't nerfed because it was making characters too powerful, unfortunately, the reason they did give is a direct result of IAS's power.

Players weren't choosing IAS because it was too powerful, they were choosing it because nearly every other offensive affix in the game is incredibly underpowered. Not only that, but there is a complete lack of variety and availability of both offensive and defensive affixes. Players wouldn't have been forced to choose IAS if there had been a number of suitable alternatives. This answer is so simple, I'm really not sure why this hasn't been addressed.

Obviously Blizzard doesn't believe that buffing everything else was a viable solution because that would be admitting to a major failure in testing and design on their part(I'm not claiming that this was the ONLY reason). It became much easier to remedy the situation by simply nerfing the anomaly. It is clear to me that this issue was not given NEARLY enough thought on Blizzard's part. They heard hoofbeats and thought horses.

What was the result? A massive tremor in the economy, slower and less fun gameplay, and a large portion of the playerbase losing their ability to trust the decisions that Blizzard makes in regards to the design of this game. Attacking fast is incredibly fun. The fact that it was causing bugs should have had absolutely zero influence on the situation. I can't imagine that Blizzard is incapable of fixing said bugs.

I am a reasonable individual, and I am able to evaluate and analyze the pros and cons of a situation. I can say with absolute certainty that the IAS nerf did NOT make the game more fun. In fact, I don't know a single person who feels that way. It actually had the exact opposite effect. The desired result was achieved, but fun was not derived from that result as it could have been.

We can't deny that Blizzard's decision to nerf IAS resulted in a massive increase in build/item diversity. However, the exact same result could have been achieved without ANY of the negative consequences would they have increased other stats instead of nerfing the fun one. Not only that, but we would have been left with an item system that was one step closer to what it should be. As it stands now, items are still grossly underpowered and most affix maximum's are FAR too low to make the affix worth acquiring.

Creating builds around certain affixes should not require the stacking of high rolls of that affix on EVERY SINGLE ARMOR SLOT that it can appear on in order to be effective. This system severely limits item-oriented build diversity. This is the current system we are playing on, with very few exceptions. Can anyone argue against this?

Bring IAS back to what it was and carefully buff the crap out of other stats. Players want to see items with absurd amounts of a certain affix. When you find such an item, you won't have to sell/DE it like 99% of the items everyone is finding. Instead, you can utilize what would have normally been a useless item, and build a spec around it. Imagine finding one piece of gear with 1600 life regen per second. Sure it's powerful, but that is what the game is about! How about an item with 12000 thorns damage? Or an item with +18% chance to stun on hit. These are the kinds of things that make an item hunt interesting. I'm not saying that such items should be common place, but I am definitely saying that they should exist.

I really can't give enough examples as to why this system would make the game infinitely more fun. Say you find a monk weapon with 900 intelligence. Obviously this wouldn't be as cool as a monk weapon with 900 dexterity, but then you realize that 900 int is ALSO 90 to all resists! What would have been a useless weapon could now actually be utilized in an interesting way. So now you can use this weapon and swap out that other piece of boring all resist gear for something else that is interesting!

Say you find a Barbarian belt with +86 maximum fury. Maybe you could try an execute style weapon throw build? Sure it might result in the desire to play some crazy OP whirlwind build, but it doesn't FORCE you to do so. It GIVES players the option to try something that would have otherwise been impossible.

Say you find a demon hunter cloak with +28% increased spike trap damage and +17% block chance. Maybe you can finally try that spike trap tank build you dreamed of?

The possibilities are endless.

Obviously you can't have a game where a huge chunk of the items are grossly overpowered and the game becomes a cakewalk with only minimal farming required. However, you also can't have a game that is nearly devoid of excitement in regards to the item hunt and item-oriented build experimentation. Start by increasing min/max affix values on MANY of the current stats, then finish by giving items a chance to roll VERY high values of an affix. THESE are the items that people would kill for. THESE are the items that make the hunt worth the effort. THESE are the items that make people squeal when they see them! Don't restrict this feeling to legendary/set items (post 1.04 of course). The fact that the current item system could literally force someone to farm for years before they find a perfectly rolled item that really isn't THAT great, is NOT fun! :(

Blizzard, you are literally choking the brilliant rune system you have created by placing severe limitations on the affix pool and their respective min/max values. Give players the opportunity to find interesting items. What would I do if I found an item with 400 vitality and 12% melee damage reduction? I would consider altering my build to make use of it, regardless of my class! You say this item would be too powerful on a tank class? I say that a tank class with such items should be INVINCIBLE! That is what makes tanking fun! Tanking with good gear and a purely defensive spec shouldn't feel like you are just barely able to survive the harder elite packs, it should feel like you are laughing at their pitiful attempts to hurt you!

Please consider what I have said Blizzard. I don't claim to be infallible on this matter, but I have yet to see a good, or any, reason as to why I could be.
55 Orc Death Knight
0
07/10/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Lylirra
One of the biggest issues we discovered with IAS was that it actively limited build diversity


Respectfully, I don't understand the logic behind this at all. If anything something like crit/crit damage proves the opposite.
hmm... dunno why i get vamp-illusion or shielding-healt link when it is not possible...
Those monster affix classifications are awfully weird.

I find it hard to believe knockback is considered a hard CC while jailer is considered an offensive ability. Nightmarish, jailer, and frozen are all hard CCs. I can't think of any harder CC than having control of your character completely removed for a set period of time. Jailer's slightly softer since you can at least attack from it, but losing your ability to move is a lot more dangerous than losing your ability to use skills.

Also considering molten and plagued, which are almost purely anti melee, offensive abilities is odd. I think the big problem is allowing these CCs that take control over your movement away to be combined with affixes that have to be manually dodged. I can't count the number of times I've been jailed and then immediately had the area underneath me desecrated.

It's things like that (alongside enrage timers with affixes that make you unable to hurt the mob) that make so much progression in this game feel like a gear check instead of a skill check. I get that ARPGs aren't exactly difficult games, and super high level gear should trivialize content by their very nature, but the possibility of being "undergeared" is a horrible idea for any game. The freedom to self-implement a challenge mode by, for instance, only wearing white gear should be given. Giving the player more freedom in playstyle is always better (excepting playstyles that involve ridiculous things like hacking/botting).
In my opinion, there are only three problematic affixes.

Vortex, Jailer and Waller.
Vortex - Completely unavoidable. Get vortexed into a fire chain / molten, unless you are a tank build, and you are dead. One may argue that you could use escape skill, but that would limit the "Viable build". Blizz keeps on insisting that they don't want any skill to be mandatory.
Suggested Solution: Make Vortex ground target with a few seconds delay. Give players time to react and avoid the vortex.

Jailer - same with vortex, it's unavoidable. Specially now that monsters seems to spam their skill more often (debatable). Jailer + Desecration almost always cast these two skill at the same time. After you counter the first jail+desecration cast, before your "escape" skill cooldown, you get hit by another jail+desecration cast. Cheap and unavoidable death.
Suggested Solution: Like the vortex solution, put in a delay. Even Diablo can't instant jail.

Waller - They cast these too much. Paired with Arcane, this is almost unavoidable. Narrow corridor makes it worse.
Suggested Solution: Decrease the frequency of wall being casted. Or, make wall breakable.

I know, this might not even be read by blues. Just want to put this out. ^^
SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS SHENANIGANS

Good job bringing up completely irrelevant/bull!@#$ "follow-up points" to the community.

You LITERALLY took the LEAST NECESSARY "points", created a thread and act like you are "on top of it".

FIX THE GAME not how many potions I can buy in a simpler way (one clicking). Are you real?

Get better. The end.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15720
Any chance of getting "Reflects Damage" moved to Defensive? It really seems more Defensive in nature (the root idea being to prevent you from simply bursting down the elites), and it would help prevent silliness with Horde/Illusionist and especially Extra Health for classes that don't have built-in heals (only lots of kiting and 30s potion CD).
Frankly, I'm not sure the D3 team understand's itemization and what make's a game like this fun in regards to it. They argue that IAS wasn't nerfed because it was making characters too powerful, unfortunately, the reason they did give is a direct result of IAS's power.

Players weren't choosing IAS because it was too powerful, they were choosing it because nearly every other offensive affix in the game is incredibly underpowered. Not only that, but there is a complete lack of variety and availability of both offensive and defensive affixes. Players wouldn't have been forced to choose IAS if there had been a number of suitable alternatives. This answer is so simple, I'm really not sure why this hasn't been addressed.

Obviously Blizzard doesn't believe that buffing everything else was a viable solution because that would be admitting to a major failure in testing and design on their part(I'm not claiming that this was the ONLY reason). It became much easier to remedy the situation by simply nerfing the anomaly. It is clear to me that this issue was not given NEARLY enough thought on Blizzard's part. They heard hoofbeats and thought horses.

What was the result? A massive tremor in the economy, slower and less fun gameplay, and a large portion of the playerbase losing their ability to trust the decisions that Blizzard makes in regards to the design of this game. Attacking fast is incredibly fun. The fact that it was causing bugs should have had absolutely zero influence on the situation. I can't imagine that Blizzard is incapable of fixing said bugs.

I am a reasonable individual, and I am able to evaluate and analyze the pros and cons of a situation. I can say with absolute certainty that the IAS nerf did NOT make the game more fun. In fact, I don't know a single person who feels that way. It actually had the exact opposite effect. The desired result was achieved, but fun was not derived from that result as it could have been.

We can't deny that Blizzard's decision to nerf IAS resulted in a massive increase in build/item diversity. However, the exact same result could have been achieved without ANY of the negative consequences would they have increased other stats instead of nerfing the fun one. Not only that, but we would have been left with an item system that was one step closer to what it should be. As it stands now, items are still grossly underpowered and most affix maximum's are FAR too low to make the affix worth acquiring.

Creating builds around certain affixes should not require the stacking of high rolls of that affix on EVERY SINGLE ARMOR SLOT that it can appear on in order to be effective. This system severely limits item-oriented build diversity. This is the current system we are playing on, with very few exceptions. Can anyone argue against this?

Bring IAS back to what it was and carefully buff the crap out of other stats. Players want to see items with absurd amounts of a certain affix. When you find such an item, you won't have to sell/DE it like 99% of the items everyone is finding. Instead, you can utilize what would have normally been a useless item, and build a spec around it. Imagine finding one piece of gear with 1600 life regen per second. Sure it's powerful, but that is what the game is about! How about an item with 12000 thorns damage? Or an item with +18% chance to stun on hit. These are the kinds of things that make an item hunt interesting. I'm not saying that such items should be common place, but I am definitely saying that they should exist.

I really can't give enough examples as to why this system would make the game infinitely more fun. Say you find a monk weapon with 900 intelligence. Obviously this wouldn't be as cool as a monk weapon with 900 dexterity, but then you realize that 900 int is ALSO 90 to all resists! What would have been a useless weapon could now actually be utilized in an interesting way. So now you can use this weapon and swap out that other piece of boring all resist gear for something else that is interesting!

Say you find a Barbarian belt with +86 maximum fury. Maybe you could try an execute style weapon throw build? Sure it might result in the desire to play some crazy OP whirlwind build, but it doesn't FORCE you to do so. It GIVES players the option to try something that would have otherwise been impossible.

Say you find a demon hunter cloak with +28% increased spike trap damage and +17% block chance. Maybe you can finally try that spike trap tank build you dreamed of?

The possibilities are endless.

Obviously you can't have a game where a huge chunk of the items are grossly overpowered and the game becomes a cakewalk with only minimal farming required. However, you also can't have a game that is nearly devoid of excitement in regards to the item hunt and item-oriented build experimentation. Start by increasing min/max affix values on MANY of the current stats, then finish by giving items a chance to roll VERY high values of an affix. THESE are the items that people would kill for. THESE are the items that make the hunt worth the effort. THESE are the items that make people squeal when they see them! Don't restrict this feeling to legendary/set items (post 1.04 of course). The fact that the current item system could literally force someone to farm for years before they find a perfectly rolled item that really isn't THAT great, is NOT fun! :(

Blizzard, you are literally choking the brilliant rune system you have created by placing severe limitations on the affix pool and their respective min/max values. Give players the opportunity to find interesting items. What would I do if I found an item with 400 vitality and 12% melee damage reduction? I would consider altering my build to make use of it, regardless of my class! You say this item would be too powerful on a tank class? I say that a tank class with such items should be INVINCIBLE! That is what makes tanking fun! Tanking with good gear and a purely defensive spec shouldn't feel like you are just barely able to survive the harder elite packs, it should feel like you are laughing at their pitiful attempts to hurt you!

Please consider what I have said Blizzard. I don't claim to be infallible on this matter, but I have yet to see a good, or any, reason as to why I could be.


+1

I was gonna post something similar to this, but you put it far more eloquently than I would have. The items are really bad in this game at the moment. Right now, all I'm doing is just farming enough gold so that I can buy a single upgrade for 15 million gold or some other ridiculous price. Haven't found a decent upgrade to my wizard in inferno yet. Got tired of dying too many times and spending far too much on repairs while trying to farm for items in inferno, that I had to buy some semi-decent gear in the AH. It's like having a job or something. Earn enough gold so you can buy upgrades in the AH. Or just use real money to buy stuff in the RMAH. That isn't fun at all.

Found a level 61 legendary source yesterday. Was so excited when I saw that little green text on the ground. And it all came crashing down when I identified it and it showed +78 dex, +6% life, and +29-150 damage, and two other random affixes that are completely useless. Not even close to an upgrade. Too many times I've been finding class specific items (WD mask/Wizard hat/etc.) with stats that have nothing to do with that specific class, nor are they high enough to even make a difference. If they had +600 strength, it'll at least add to my armor and I can try out the Wiz.Tank build I wanted to do since I first played around with the skill calculator before the game came out. Right now, I'm running around with 900+ all resists, but I can't even look at molten or have the bloody Arcane Sentry anyway near me or I die in a second, and that's in Act 2/3 inferno. And after the sudden increase in elemental damage and the spamming of the attacks by the elites mean I'll be lucky if stay alive in Act 1.

I really hope blizz is reading the replies. I'm still sticking with the game (the only one among my real life friends that is still doing so) in hopes that blizzard will fix this.
Edited by IcyNight#1724 on 7/11/2012 5:22 PM PDT
1) you could have easily just capped the max allowable IAS %, rather then changing the actual items, the variety of items with lower dmg and higher atk speed is basically null and void.. with ias being nerfed the way it was my 1h xbow dmg was cut so bad i finally went to an xbow.. as im sure many other have done the same but switching to the stronger (base dmg) weaps..

3) why is jailer,frozen,waller not a part of "cc" they are most definitely a measure of crowd control. what about the fact that bosses are using their skills at increased speeds and amounts? and elemental dmg specifically molten and firechains getting a significant boost a few weeks ago? most notably for me in act3 getting 1hko on my dh with 600+ all resis for 45k+ per hit.. by molten firechain goblins ( the guys that crawl up sides on the tower maps)

4) should have been a given, moo moo land was same way, plus you can tell the difficulty is >act1 :)

5) 30 is way to low for limited space between all of your characters..

6) fix breakable/lootable items... add in the NV buff 20% of total item mf counts towards mf on these objects.. if im playing the game your way by running entire acts and keeping my nv5 buff on the whole time, i should be rewarded with my mf working on these objects..

7)find better ways to stop exploiters/botters other then completely nerfing everything and punishing all your players...

8) bring back a lobby system for diablo 3 - this game just feels so dead, there no social interaction and limit of 100 "ppl" ( 20ppl 80 spammers) per channel is not enough..

9) increase drop rates per person in a game and slightly lower total hp for monsters.. need to encourage more group play.. because right now is mostly single play.. getting boring as hell

10)raise ss back to 2 secs, and increase cd time to compensate.. or at least fix it so monsters actually drop agro and stop following you when using ss..

11) look into why some mob types even without fast affix outrun ppl in move speed gear/skills...

12) why are oculist fireballs and spearman spears so much faster now then previously?

13) more map randomization - 10 years and there's almost no map randomization, i can farm every map in my sleep its so boring...

14) add a free range mode - after beating an act.. able to start a game and have free movement across the act with all bosses up.. yes i can have free movement if i select last quest in act, but all the mid bosses are gone..

15) NV buff caring over when completing an act and moving on to the next act.. i just farmed for 2hrs your way and im continuing on like you want, now i have to get my buffs again?

16)a) highly increase drop rates for rares,uniqs,legendaries through normal-hell
b)whats the point of legendaries and uniques being so rare to actually drop? ill go 2 weeks between finding one ( and always have 269%mf and kill every mob, every zone, every breakable/lootable).. and then they all stink anyways.. especially the weapons.

all add more later ;P
Edited by Krazykat#1558 on 7/11/2012 5:45 PM PDT
Edited by ElTemido#1657 on 7/13/2012 1:12 PM PDT
I am sure that this brilliant thread filled with brilliant points won't even reach the Diablo 3 haters.... this is how unreasonable they have become. But I'd like to think that the SUPPORT TICKET I made advising Blizzard to tell everyone to be quiet and EXPLAIN why the game is designed this way WORKED.

At this point, I still don't see why Diablo 3 is so bad. It makes no sense to me, and the more I ponder about the reasons, the more contradictions I find. You see, the Diablo 3 haters call ME a fanboy when they are the ones being fanboys about Diablo 2 by always comparing it to Diablo 3 rather than looking at Diablo 3 on its own merits. Really, it's nothing but hypocrisy from me, from you, and from everybody. It's pretty sad, really. :(

However, there is really NO WAY to please everyone at this point, but I sure wish there was because it is unthinkable that Diablo 3 "sucks". Yet barely anyone understands that the definition of "fun" is different for each person, as well as what the definition of "flawed" is. For me, Diablo 3 has a few MINOR flaws on top of the insane unfair Inferno diffficulty. It isn't up to anyone to decide what fun is, even for the developers (as I've recently realized). Blizzard is just designing Diablo 3 from the fact that stat points or skill trees are outdated systems, even overused systems. Therefore they are no longer "fun" which may or may not be true depending on what you guys find "fun". I am sure just about any ARPG fan should be sick and tired of these systems by now after playing hundreds of hours of other ARPGs!

So, kudos to Blizzard for actually responding on the forums to the negative criticisms. Keep it up!
Edited by Arkveveen#1786 on 7/11/2012 5:44 PM PDT
07/11/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Arkveveen
At this point, I still don't see why Diablo 3 is so bad.


-Endgame is stats and AH browsing.

-Gear/Items are irrelevant they can be nerfed at any time, gotta keep your stats up to par.

Normal to Hell mode is fun for the majority of people's first gameplay experience.

Lack of customization in Inferno is a big one too, all barbs are the same and so on.

If your having fun good for you. :)
Look.

It's no secret which specific Elite affixes attached to specific monsters literally force people to abandon games, and it has nothing to do with the willy nilly 3 tier list provided.

Imagine if players were the monsters and monsters were the classes?

Imagine the players chose an elite pack to march through the game and fought the heroes?

I can tell you right now certain affixes would be nerfed SO fast it would make your head spin

If IAS was making certain builds so alluring was a bad thing, and was cause to reshape the rules of the games universe

Why is invulnerable minions making certain packs a complete waste of time to even try to kill, OK?

My friend just beat inferno Diablo. he was the first of us friends by a MILE.

He hopped into my game and was promptly slain BY A TREE IN ACT 1.

.......................
Anyways Blizzard staff I hope this is constructive feedback, I just want to promote thought here. I absolutely do not think that I am right and you guys are wrong....consider this my feed back

The main thing to take away from this is that certain monsters sometimes get graced with certain combinations of affixes that are so nasty they actually tarnish the quality of the game.......we're online all the time so program the game to send info about what combinations of affixes is killing characters. get the characters to send secret little emails to the GMs including affixes and mob types. let the info pour in and see what you can see.....
In regard to affixs, the most common concerns appear to be jailer, frozen, and waller. However, removing affixs from Aggressive (No limit) means the remaining Aggressive affixs happen more often (since the other two categories are both limited to 1). As it stands, if you're melee, that means more desecrator, fire chains, molten, plagued, and arcane. If you're ranged, that means more reflect dmg, fast, mortar, and teleporter. Sound good?

Frozen is not "strong" CC - it's not instant. You have plenty of time to move before it explodes. The problem arises when you get vortexed into an explosion, which means you're usually right next to the mob and in the frozen "hotspot" (get chained, etc.).

Waller is not "strong" CC - you can freely move. In fact, there are times waller even benefits me (as a monk) as I can punch through the wall. The problem arises when you get vortexed into the "corner" of a wall, or the wall placement is "skewed" totally against you to the point you can not move and have plagued+desecrator under you or fast+fire chain up in your face with no way to escape (or a combo).

Jailer is the debatable one - it's an instant CC. When combined with most Aggressive affixs its already tough, but then add in a strong CC and you got yourself a McNasty. The combo of Jailer+any existing Strong CC (vortex) really makes it feel that jailer should be classified as Strong CC.

--------------------------------

I mostly don't have problems/complaints with the current affix combos, so I will try to offer suggestions based on an objective viewpoint of the common thread trend. Realize that the names of the groups are mostly irrelevant; the main design system is you have three groups, one unlimited and two limited to 1. I propose:

Group A (Limit 1): Vortex, Jailer, Frozen

Group B (Limit 1): Current "Defensive" + Knockback + Reflect Dmg - Missle Dampening - Avenger

Group C (unlimited): Current "Agressive" - Jailer - Frozen - Reflect Dmg + Missle Dampening + Nightmarish + Avenger

Reasons and Comments:

(1) I no longer get vortexed into frozen or vortexed and jailed in some bull****.

(2) The Reflect dmg and Missle Dampening swap wouldn't mean much for melee, and would be a small buff for ranged giving them less Reflect dmg in trade for more missle dampening.

(3) Knockback still needs some weight, as it creates a moment I can't use any ability, even my invul. shield as a monk - and that very small moment matters.

(4) Nightmarish should be tweaked - the frequency and duration should be reduced ~33%, but the speed at which you run when feared should be increased by ~33%.

(5) Needs more Avenger. Avenger can create an intense moment at the end of fights and can be a real wild card when MF gear swapping. Although overlooked, I think it can be one of the more fun affixs.

(6) It tries to address every logical complaint in this thread about affix combos, within the framework of the existing game design.

(7) It still allows difficult combos like vortex/jail -> plagued/fc/desec/molten, or vortex -> nightmarish (speed increase means you run thru stationary ground dmg quickly, a slight nerf to being jailed in it), and waller largely remains untouched. Thus, the change shouldn't be over the top in terms of a nerf.



TLDR: Debating whether an affix should be in a group because you think it falls under the category of Strong CC, Defensive, or Aggressive is irrelevant. What matters is the interaction between the restrictions on affixs - the entire system must be considered as a whole. Scroll up to the Groups to scope a tangible change that tries to account for the most common complaints on affix combos while remaining within the current design framework.
What about Auction House suggestions?
How some of the affixes should be separated :

1)Knock back should be switched out with 2)Jailer -- being knocked back out of combat or even into more mobs is not as necessarily as devastating as being rooted in place. (Ex. Arcane/desolation/fire chain/molten/mortar all are avoidable by themselves ... when rooted in it however... you will most likely die, whereas if you have the same 2ndary affix with knock back instead of jailer you will just be flung... frustrating but not impossible)


If it was simply a knockback as the affix notes then I'd agree. The completely unnecessary and god-awful slow is worse than the knockback itself and is definitely a strong CC.

I'm convinced these guys passed around a bottle of vodka and threw some crap up on a whiteboard and "categorized" them in one day. After they were categorized separate people developed the actual effects of the affixes and nobody checked how they (didn't) synergize prior to release.

At least, I hope that's what happened. Otherwise they're terrible at their job, which would be far more disturbing.
Edited by Stergil#1936 on 7/11/2012 6:53 PM PDT
So when are you going to fix the legendary and set equipment? I've still yet to find a single one, ever, in this game. This is beyond ludicrous and into plaid territory.
07/11/2012 06:44 PMPosted by BrunoLM
What about Auction House suggestions?


Bashiok said they were going to work on it.
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