Diablo® III

Since everyone's demanding it, it's official.

Leah never existed, Aidan never existed, Adria was just a misunderstood witch.


would make me the happiest fanboy in the world the world
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07/12/2012 12:59 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I don't think it is THAT bad...... Regardless, do you have ANY problem with the events that happen in the game or just how they are displayed?


Yes. And I've posted a couple dozen suggestions on how to make things better. I've written fan-fiction on how they could successfully wrap up the game and have everything make some sort of sense again (Horadric Archives…check it out). I've even rewritten Leah's part to have her go from a whiner to an actually kick-butt tragic heroine. But any post longer than a paragraph gets zero response because no one reads them.

Let me just give a brief issues list:

1. Killing Cain was simply lazy writing. There would have been dozens of ways to give him a send off without silly butterfly witches. Simplest... he has a heart attack from the exertion. Best... he stays until the end and assumes the role of wisdom.

2. Leah: is a whiny do-nothing until she's told what to do by her overbearing mother. If you follow any sort of logic the daughter of the Lord of Terror should have been... fearless. That's a character I want to write.

3. Tyrael: No reason to "fall" other than the cool cinematic. He could have phoned in his part like everyone else. Other than opening a couple doors and making Act 1 way too long, he has no other function. Just to sit at the Diamond Gates and boo hoo, Hope is lost...

4. Haedrig / Shen: How about quests? Backstory? Shen starts to get interesting, then they leave us hanging.

5. Adria: with the magic power of plot holes... Don't you think "comforting" Aidan with that crystal sticking out of his skull would have been a bit awkward? She's Diablo's concubine... she alone did all the work to bring this plan together... what was she after? She's a gigantic plot hole herself... What were her motivations? Where did she go?

6. Magdha: Magdha, Magdha. What else can be said about her? She's awful. Indicative of all the other villians, she talks too much and says nothing. The puzzles she hands out are solved by the NPCs and you just dumbly nod and go where they tell you to. Even her gameplay mechanics in the boss fight are boring.

7. Kulle: Kulle has so much possibility. But we know absolutely nothing about his crimes. Some backstory, ANY BACKSTORY, would be nice. Killing him earns "Murderer, Torturer, Monster." Does it say anywhere what he actually did? Why do I even need to fear him? Why do we suddenly jump the gun and kill him? Why would he fight us when the Soulstone is not full?

8. Belial: Fails totally to be the "Lord of Lies." It's so transparent that I went, "Oh, there's the boss." Make it anyone but the most obvious character ever.

9. Azmodan: Lord of Denial. Sloth keeps him from actually being the master strategist. Or did Cydaea keep him "tied up"?

10. Diablo: You will never...! Oh you did, really? Well you will never...! Oh. Nevermind. Well you'll never get out of...! Oh. Crud. Well please don't hurt me! Doesn't he even sound a little scared at the last part of the boss fight?

If you'd like to pick specific plot points I can probably go all day. It's a slow month at work.
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Just to clear up a few things..

07/13/2012 06:53 AMPosted by Melancholy
3. Tyrael: No reason to "fall" other than the cool cinematic. He could have phoned in his part like everyone else. Other than opening a couple doors and making Act 1 way too long, he has no other function. Just to sit at the Diamond Gates and boo hoo, Hope is lost...
While that was not the specific plot point that was being hinted at, something along those lines has been in the works for a very long time. If I was writing the story, I don't think that mortality would be the way I would go, but it's not unreasonable.

07/13/2012 06:53 AMPosted by Melancholy
5. Adria: with the magic power of plot holes... Don't you think "comforting" Aidan with that crystal sticking out of his skull would have been a bit awkward?
From the Diablo II manual
Diablo II Manual:
Yet strangely enough, my eye was drawn to a strange wound on his forehead. It looked as if he had somehow gouged himself above the eyes, yet the wound appeared to have already healed.

- An excerpt from the manuscripts of Deckard Cain: Last of the Horadrim
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07/13/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Chris
While that was not the specific plot point that was being hinted at, something along those lines has been in the works for a very long time. If I was writing the story, I don't think that mortality would be the way I would go, but it's not unreasonable.


What was the specific plot point? I'm not understanding the statement. Tyrael could have been anything and not be Tyrael. Collect the three keys to the Earth Temple. Muahaha..I've stolen the Earth Crystal, now fight my lackey. Come get me here, I've got the crystal!

It would be nice if they came out and said... angel gives up power, becomes human. People are still arguing human or mortal angel, etc.

Diablo II Manual:Yet strangely enough, my eye was drawn to a strange wound on his forehead. It looked as if he had somehow gouged himself above the eyes, yet the wound appeared to have already healed.- An excerpt from the manuscripts of Deckard Cain: Last of the Horadrim


OK. Conceded. But the Dark Wanderer didn't really lose himself until later down the road, did he? And by the time we see him, he really didn't look like he felt very good. All he does is use his sword as a crutch and scream a lot. Not very attractive. Adria must have very low standards.
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Yes. And I've posted a couple dozen suggestions on how to make things better. I've written fan-fiction on how they could successfully wrap up the game and have everything make some sort of sense again (Horadric Archives…check it out). I've even rewritten Leah's part to have her go from a whiner to an actually kick-butt tragic heroine. But any post longer than a paragraph gets zero response because no one reads them.


1. Agreed, not much else to say.
2. I have never seen leah as whiny.
3. Not an event, but I agree he could have been done differently.
4. Followers and Artisians had a great story. I'm perfectly fine with how they were handled in this game. I assume they will be expanded on in the expansion.
5. Adria will likely be expanded on in an expansion. The way she marked the major evil's souls doesn't need to be explained IMO.
6. She was handled awfully, if they handled her better she may have been interesting. Which was kinda my point.
7. It is likely that Kulles story is covered in a book or a book that is going to come out.
8. Your flaw in this is the execution.
9. Same as 8.
10. Same as 8.

I fully realize that many of the villians and heroes are flawed, but that is not what my question asked. You are talking about the charcters and execution, not the events in the game.
Edited by Ascendedone#1637 on 7/13/2012 4:45 PM PDT
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07/13/2012 03:28 PMPosted by AscendedOne
I fully realize that many of the villians and heroes are flawed, but that is not what my question asked. You are talking about the charcters and execution, not the events in the game.

The general concept is sorta okay, though I don't know that Cain ever needed to die (I saw someone suggest that *he* become Wisdom. That would have been cool.) but there's so many things wrong with it that you pretty much have to back up to:

Beat Act 1. (New boss. Make it be Maghda. The Butcher is something I actually have an issue with being there at all, and we need an act boss we really hate. Maghda should work perfectly.) If she's the act boss, it means someone with actual importance actually killed Cain too. That makes his death a bit more meaningful. We'll head to the desert to hunt down Belial, because he's the one who sent Maghda. Revenge and all that, still works fine, we can skip the whole Maghda part of act 2 and put something actually interesting in there instead.

Kill Belial in Act 2. It can involve Caldeum and the deserts around it. Kulle can keep his part, though he shouldn't attack us there.

Kill Azmodan in Act 3. It can involve Bastion's Keep. It should end with Kulle doing something to attempt to betray us after we've filled the soulstone, whether he succeeds or not. If he does succeed, it could result in Leah being awakened as Diablo (By accident, because Kulle thinks he could control the result and wants to harness that power, whatever. It's a twist you wouldn't have seen coming five miles out. But, not required. Can stay with the pitifully predictable Adria if we must.)

Kill Diablo in Act 4. It can involve heaven, if it really has to. But the angels can die for all I care, given how little they care about humanity. Make the emphasis more "We can't let evil win here or they'll never stop attacking sanctuary until the whole thing is hell too" so we actually have a stake in things. Bonus points if Kulle is the first mini-boss here instead of our good friend "demon that the game acts like is important but we've never heard of before now." Note that killing Kulle in heaven provides justification for how he might actually die (Something about different plane of existence his powers can't save him here etc.) versus the current "How did we just kill this immortal guy that was so powerful they had to split his body into parts and hide them separately because that was the best they could do?"

You'll notice how much of the current story I think is good to keep?
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 7/13/2012 8:57 PM PDT
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While that was not the specific plot point that was being hinted at, something along those lines has been in the works for a very long time.
What was the specific plot point? I'm not understanding the statement.
The Angiris Council finding out that he broke the pact forged to end the Sin War was the broad topic, and what happened in DIII was the specific.

07/13/2012 10:14 AMPosted by Melancholy
But the Dark Wanderer didn't really lose himself until later down the road, did he? And by the time we see him, he really didn't look like he felt very good. All he does is use his sword as a crutch and scream a lot. Not very attractive. Adria must have very low standards.
I seem to recall reading somewhere an exact time when he fully lost his soul, but I can't find it. From what I can recall (and this may be wrong), Diablo took full control during Marius' and his journey through the deserts of Aranoch on their way to Lut Gholein.
Edited by Chris#1235 on 7/13/2012 9:31 PM PDT
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07/13/2012 08:47 PMPosted by Bianary
You'll notice how much of the current story I think is good to keep?


Yes. I'll give credit where credit is due, there were some good parts. But, that doesn't make it a good story, it just means those parts should've been in a better story. No part of the story is too good to get rid of. They need to start over from the ground up.
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07/14/2012 12:06 PMPosted by LittleDisco
You'll notice how much of the current story I think is good to keep?


Yes. I'll give credit where credit is due, there were some good parts. But, that doesn't make it a good story, it just means those parts should've been in a better story. No part of the story is too good to get rid of. They need to start over from the ground up.

I was actually pointing out that I think about half the story should be gone entirely, not that I thought large parts were worth keeping :P
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Answering the question about whether people actually have issue with the storyline, I most certainly do. There are just too many instances of characters acting in cliche, inconsistent, or illogical ways. For example, the conflict between Imperius and Tyrael at the beginning of the story has the following problems. According to the established lore within D3 itself, the demons wanted to corrupt the world stone in order to turn humankind into a weapon against heaven. Baal succeeded at corrupting the world stone and Tyrael, a being knowledgeable in the workings of the world stone, chose to blow it up. As a result, it is assumed that the corruption was irreversible. Tyrael thus not only saved the human race, but also heaven as well. It was a tactically sound decision. Yet Imperius, the lead tactician of heaven, the one who would most appreciate and understand the (very positive) tactical implications of what Tyrael did, is acting as though Tyrael committed treason. Imperius attacks Tyrael, loses, and then a series of events follow that bring up more questions than answers. Others have wrote about the same and other storyline inconsistencies on the forums as well.
Edited by Akrem#1768 on 7/14/2012 6:24 PM PDT
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07/12/2012 08:51 AMPosted by Melancholy
Or the second Highlander movie. It was so ridiculously bad that they just simply ignored it and moved on.


Watch the director's cut. They basically removed all of the strange made-no-sense retcons about them being "aliens". Believe it or not, the changes actually make it a decent movie.

In 1995, Mulcahy made a Director’s Cut version known as Highlander 2: Renegade Version. The film was reconstructed largely from existing material, with certain scenes removed and others added back in, and the entire sequence of events changed. All references to the Immortals being aliens from another planet were eliminated; instead, this cut reveals that the Immortals are from an unspecified, distant past on Earth, banished by priests into random locations in the future to keep the Prize from being won in their lifetime.
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07/14/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Mogrigg
Or the second Highlander movie. It was so ridiculously bad that they just simply ignored it and moved on.


Watch the director's cut. They basically removed all of the strange made-no-sense retcons about them being "aliens". Believe it or not, the changes actually make it a decent movie.

In 1995, Mulcahy made a Director’s Cut version known as Highlander 2: Renegade Version. The film was reconstructed largely from existing material, with certain scenes removed and others added back in, and the entire sequence of events changed. All references to the Immortals being aliens from another planet were eliminated; instead, this cut reveals that the Immortals are from an unspecified, distant past on Earth, banished by priests into random locations in the future to keep the Prize from being won in their lifetime.

I anxiously await the director's cut of Diablo 3.
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07/14/2012 06:22 PMPosted by Akrem
According to the established lore within D3 itself, the demons wanted to corrupt the world stone in order to turn humankind into a weapon against heaven. Baal succeeded at corrupting the world stone and Tyrael, a being knowledgeable in the workings of the world stone, chose to blow it up. As a result, it is assumed that the corruption was irreversible. Tyrael thus not only saved the human race, but also heaven as well. It was a tactically sound decision. Yet Imperius, the lead tactician of heaven, the one who would most appreciate and understand the (very positive) tactical implications of what Tyrael did, is acting as though Tyrael committed treason. Imperius attacks Tyrael, loses, and then a series of events follow that bring up more questions than answers. Others have wrote about the same and other storyline inconsistencies on the forums as well.
Tactically, yes it was a sound decision. But the flaw of Heaven is order, as it is chaos in Hell. Imperius was unhappy not at the decision that he made, he was unhappy that Tyrael broke the pact forged during the Sin War that stated that no angel or demon should interfere with Sanctuary.
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I agree. Diablo 3 must be non-canon for the sake of removing the stupid, ALL POWERFUL NEPHALEM from existence.

The fact that the previous two band of heroes were all simple mortals adds tension to their quest. They were going against impossible odds, and were treated by the townsfolk with prayers and gifts to aid them.

The Nephalem in Diablo 3 on the other hand were told repeatedly that they were potentially more powerful than any angel or demon that ever existed, including Diablo and Tyreal. I mean, what's the point of hyping up the final conflict with Diablo if we're told "Hey. You're more powerful than Diablo. You're gonna win this war because you were born to be more powerful than Diablo. Diablo's far weaker than you, this shouldn't be an issue. D'you want something to eat!? You shouldn't fight on an empty stomach."

The whole Nephalem angle makes no sense for the player character. If Leah or Zoltan Kulle were Nephalem, that would make the game more interesting, giving the title of "World's Mightiest Hero" to an NPC and raising the NPC's importance.

Yeah. I'm not including D3 lore as official continuity. No way!
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I've even rewritten Leah's part to have her go from a whiner to an actually kick-butt tragic heroine. But any post longer than a paragraph gets zero response because no one reads them.

2. Leah: is a whiny do-nothing until she's told what to do by her overbearing mother. If you follow any sort of logic the daughter of the Lord of Terror should have been... fearless. That's a character I want to write.

This tells me that you would've created an even worse story for D3. If nothing else, the writers at Blizzard understood that very competent NPCs steal the thunder from PCs, and that's far worse than Leah being a whiny do-nothing.

I agree. Diablo 3 must be non-canon for the sake of removing the stupid, ALL POWERFUL NEPHALEM from existence.

The fact that the previous two band of heroes were all simple mortals adds tension to their quest. They were going against impossible odds, and were treated by the townsfolk with prayers and gifts to aid them.

The Heroes of D1 and D2 were nephalem as well. A change made to the Worldstone by the hero Uldyssian during the Sin War allowed Nephalem to be born from the race of man, if only rarely. This is how the male barbarian and witch doctor can be nephalem, despite being far older than the destruction of the Worldstone.
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07/16/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Wurg
This tells me that you would've created an even worse story for D3. If nothing else, the writers at Blizzard understood that very competent NPCs steal the thunder from PCs, and that's far worse than Leah being a whiny do-nothing.


Other than (1) killing stuff and (2) destroying objects what thunder is she going to steal? Our hero doesn't figure anything out (except Belial, pft!)... doesn't plot or plan... Just says "yep, I'm going to go over there and kill that thing." Despite having the ability to summon acid clouds, laser beams, and mystical friends we can't open a padlocked gate without direct intervention from an NPC.

We're told by Leah, Cain, Tyrael, Adria, Kulle and even Azmodan and Diablo where to go and what to do every step of the way. What would it matter that they be more competent? In most every occasion that would add to the story and depth of character rather than taking it away...
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07/16/2012 06:27 AMPosted by Melancholy
Other than (1) killing stuff and (2) destroying objects what thunder is she going to steal? Our hero doesn't figure anything out (except Belial, pft!)... doesn't plot or plan... Just says "yep, I'm going to go over there and kill that thing." Despite having the ability to summon acid clouds, laser beams, and mystical friends we can't open a padlocked gate without direct intervention from an NPC.

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but killing stuff and breaking objects has been the thunder of the entire Diablo series. The NPCs are only doings things that there's no way to turn into fun gameplay, which is just how it should be.

We're told by Leah, Cain, Tyrael, Adria, Kulle and even Azmodan and Diablo where to go and what to do every step of the way. What would it matter that they be more competent? In most every occasion that would add to the story and depth of character rather than taking it away...

You think this game is about story and deep characters? Oh, isn't that adorable. Now run along and play Final Fantasy MXI or whatever they're at now.

I dont think you understand what an entitlement issues and inflated ego is. When someone says a story is bad, that isn't an inflated ego or an entitlement issue. An inflated ego is Jay wilson saying he knows what fun is and no one remembers what made Diablo 2 fun but him. What is the OP is doing is something common on a lot of games and other media, when a bad product exist you distant it away from everyone.

Duke nukem fans considered DNF non-canon

Star wars fans considered the prequel trilogy non-canon

Diablo fans consider the third non-cannon.

The constant is that every single one of the products mentioned as not canon is bad and subpar compared to previous titles.

Star Wars was a space opera. At it's core, its romantic, melodramatic plot and storytelling made it great. The mish-mash of western, samurai and sci-fi themes and tropes found in the original trilogy captured the amazement of the world at the time. The new trilogy did away with that, made Darth Vader into a whiny !@#$% and introduced Jar-jar Binks. That is why it is rejected.

The Duke Nukem series was a shooter. You shot up alien freaks, mutants and pig cops while dropping one-liners like you were all out of bubblegum. The sensation character of Duke Nukem plus great gameplay made the series a legend in its own time. Duke Nukem Forever, if the reviews are to be trusted, has bad gameplay compared to its predecessors. That is why it is rejected.

D1 and D2 were both games loved for their great gameplay and dark, pulpy atmosphere. D3 has certainly delivered the gameplay, the atmosphere is still pulpy and sometimes dark. Now take off those rose-colored glasses for a few minutes. If it had been properly executed, would the story of D3 really have been any worse than the stories of D1 and D2? For clarification, if the story had been properly executed:

*Belial would've disguised himself as Hakan II as well as Baal disguised as Tyrael. Hakan never would've mentioned Belial, knowing only that his palace was being taken over by demons. He would know nothing of the Black Soulstone until you told him of it, and even then he would only know that it could defeat the demon leader invading his court. He would not know how to help you until you told him how. When Caldeum was bombarded, he would be in tears. When you brought him the Black Soulstone, he would be overjoyed, and go to offer you a reward....then he'd reveal himself as Belial and laugh in your face about how he had tricked you.

*It would be abundantly clear that Azmodan was merely hours away from capturing Bastion's Keep when you arrived and your actions are the only things that thwarted him. It would also be clear that Ghom spoiled the food supply of BK, ensuring that even if the heroes and/or reinforcements had the power to stave off Azmodan's army, they would starve within the month; charging the hellgate was a desperate gambit that we only attempted because Azmodan forced us to end the conflict as quickly as possible. And most of all, it would be clear that Azmodan was a tactical genius who lost because he thought he was crushing ants....and did not see the viper in the grass.

*Diablo's dialogue in heaven? It would actually be scary....the original intention was for him to be playing mind games with you and savoring your delicious fear.
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