Diablo® III

Witch Doctor Pet Guide part 3 (old)

08/21/2012 12:13 AMPosted by weesheng
It's better to think of ZD as a form of CC (aka the Pet Wall) that should be resummoned actively to maximize its potential

Well see, someone like me is going to go for as much pet based damage output as possible (or at least automated damage). So having dogs die in the middle of their cooldown would not be optimal for me. Sure, it's only a potential 36ish percent weapon damage a second, but it still helps.

I wonder though, at what point it would be better to switch out jungle fort for FL (after a while, even jungle fort won't reduce the damage of most enemies below the damage cap, if I've invested enough into AR/Armor. I mean, even with 70% damage reduction from armor and resists + 20% from jungle fort, I bet a lot of act3/4 enemies will still hit for over 1k damage which would be over the cap at that point) and possibly get tribal rites to reduce that cooldown a little more.
I may just start replacing all my CC with life regen, and drop jungle fort once I get my life regen higher than the damage cap on my dogs. And probably reduce my dex by half to about 20% dodge rate. Since resists, armor, and health will be more important than they were before, I should prioritize them all a little more. I now consider a socketed helm to be a must have, just to reach my 30k health goal faster
Edited by BafroomHumor#1121 on 8/21/2012 1:39 AM PDT
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Is thorns build a viable alternative solution after 1.0.4? Due to reduced proc.

Do thorns trigger the heal for leeching beasts?

Thorns build will be viable, but whether or not the dps increase is worth it needs to be examined. E.g., is crit chance better?

The patch notes did not mention leeching beasts, so I assume that thorns will still trigger healing for leeching beasts. But leeching beasts' effectiveness are reduced in Inferno.


well im still going to stick with what i know and see what happens! i think i will switch SH back to them spiders for a bit! overall i am pretty happy with the changes. on paper at least lol
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Folks since this thread is almost full, I've created a new thread in advance for 1.0.4.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6368778294

You can continue discussing in here, but it will be full eventually.
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@weesheng: I definitely agree with ya there. But a lot of that also comes down to just more dmg also, ultimately, results in minions surviving longer. It's a balance right? Need a base for dogs to survive, then you need to keep that DPS up so stuff times in a timely manner. Faster they die, better chance the pets have to keep doing what they do.

I Kinda think the whole glass cannon thing also has a place, less of a balance but the pets will survive enough hits, ultimately, to allow for the big blasts of damage and with the quicker CD they can just be brought back, or refreshed, before the next encounter.

Personally I like the more balanced approach. Kinda wish we had actual word on if Jungle Fort effected the max-dmg mitigation, they only mentioned Armor/All resist in the scale. But I personally want 4 dogs over an extra 20% for my self in either case. Also comes out to about th esame number of hits per dog.

Going off your stats, just for fun ran the numbers based off fort working and the 20% hp increase. Fort wins by 1 extra hit heh. So, fort gives you 24 hits (not counting regen) and zombie handler gives you 23 hits, but an extra dog. Less useful for your actual WD survival though.. maybe. Mobs still suck (and will probably continue to suck) at paying attention to pets.
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Personally I like the more balanced approach. Kinda wish we had actual word on if Jungle Fort effected the max-dmg mitigation, they only mentioned Armor/All resist in the scale. But I personally want 4 dogs over an extra 20% for my self in either case. Also comes out to about th esame number of hits per dog.


Heheh, this can be tested easily. Will be easier, because I can just find a heavy hitting mob that does more than 10,000 damage.
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Hah yeah, good point, that's basically everything in Inferno mode. Btw my guestimates where about 68% from his resist since it looked like about 700. But that could be 70% for all I know, haven't bothered to run the number to get it. Either way both passives depending on other stats seem to come out to about the same survivability which is nice.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 3:23 AM PDT
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Oh yeah those GIANT mallet dudes wont be able to kill pets with any amount of regen now. A lot of that slow hitting stuff just wont be able to deal with the pets as far as actually killing them even with my crappy gear. I can bet you anything my !@#$ gear, just me vs a mallet lord as an example? I'd do fine. IT's all that other %^-* shooting at me that'd auto-kill me before I could get into a position to let the dogs just tank while I DPS it to death.

That's actually why I decided I'd go ahead and try out Sacrifice now. If pets can last, and the CD is about up, might as well detonate all 4 (or whatever remains) before I resummon. I mean if all for just barely last up to near CD, and we know the Garg will 'handle things for a few', detonating becomes a good dmg push before the next summon of the dogs yeah? That's what, 1100% dmg every 30-45 seconds or so?

If I can just get some better equipment I think im gonna really start liking the class again.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 3:45 AM PDT
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Yeah, haven't really decided what rune I'll use but Pride looks like a nice one. It's literally max mana on sacrifice. 2 Dogs is +596, 3 dogs is over almost 900 mana. 4 dogs you can't get enough +mana to actually 'need' that 1200 I don't think... maybe you can.

Either way I think it'll be a nice alternative to other 'I need mana' buttons. Dump mana like crazy, CD is nearly there - sacrifice the dogs, get full mana again, resummon. I can see that making a nice back and forth balance with out needing 'the perfect equipment' or anything. Granted there are more useful runes for actual damage with sacrifice but you know, experimentation and all that.

-edit-
Actually looking over the Sacrifice Runes, all of those are 'really' nice. Last one 5% per dog for 30 seconds? If I keep the 25% CD for DG, I can remake them every 33 seconds. If I sacrifice immedately in a fight (with CD already up due to town summon) you can keep that 20% dmg boost going 'constantly'. I mean 30 seconds is up, sacrifice, 3 seconds later, resummon.

First rune, 60% slow for 8 seconds in radius around each dog would be some solid utility CC going on for it, really clog em up still after they're gone giving you an even easier time for the re-summon length. Healthing one is literally 50% of your HP if you had 50k hp... anything else and it's mostly a full heal (considering your not dead already heh).

One of the few skills where I like every rune... interesting.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 4:13 AM PDT
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Well, Acid Cloud actually is extremely expensive. Yeah if I spread it out (which I usually do) it'll be super easy, more so with Slow Burn (which is probably my favorite rune for it). But if you want to burst out the damage, say your about to sacrifice. Spam 4-5 Acid Clouds out will completely drain your mana... Sacrifice + resummon, your back to full and you just had some solid DPS burst.

Course there are a lot of other nice runes (I like 2H weapons btw, so I have no real +mana regen bonus, all base). IN my edited part of last post I mean... you got 60% slow for 8 seconds on sacrifice, that's some great utility right there. Health would make for a good 'oh !@#$' moment if your taking to much dmg, sacrifice on the run kinda thing, get that HP back then resummon em at your position. Or keep up a sacrifice rotation for a continual 20% dmg boost (with 4 dogs).

Basically the mana thing wasn't a 'I'll need that' but more of a 'hey that could be useful for burst DPS'ing if I needed/wanted to do that'.
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Im lazy, someone do the math on pet survivability in 1.0.4 with the following character stats:

920 Resist all
5500 Armor
53,000 HP

I am a tank doctor who will be changing his build in 1.0.4 to incorporate pets and Im wondering how many hits or how long the pets will survive.
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Would be easier if you actually gave % values instead of just static numbers. I'll edit this post in a second though, gadda find find the darn armor/resist to % ratio formula.

-edit-
Ok, still not sure if fort 20% comes into play at all, it probably will but didn't use it in any of this. Also remember this is just Dogs, I don't know base health for Garg, but he ultimately has same max hit and at least gets 100% of your HP stacked onto his so... 'more' would be apt for him (probably double-ish).

Armor: 63.58%
Resist: 74.49%
Max DMG: 929.0742 in 1 hit
Health: 28550 (34260 with 20% passive)
-----------------------------------------------
Total hits: 31 (37 20% hp passive)
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 9:03 AM PDT
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08/21/2012 02:07 AMPosted by weesheng
You're missing my point. It's not the % passive damage on the field that I am talking about. It's the gimped DPS figures that most pet doctors have as they go to extreme lengths to ensure dogs survive. 36% is decent, it's when you only have 12K paper DPS, and you think that's viable, is when I really think a mindset change is needed.

Oh I see what you're saying, and i never said people should always prioritize survivability over damage.
To the contrary, I'd say DPS numbers are as important as your armor/resists. Sure, our damage won't be incredible anyway due to how pets attack, but there's always some balance to take into account. I always expect to sacrifice vitality stacking for armor or resists, and I'm reducing my dex to maybe help account for the life regen I'm shooting for. But I'd try my best to not sacrifice too much DPS for survivability. Stacking Int also increases resists also, so it can somewhat take the place of AR. The biggest reason that I didn't try stacking int so much before was because pets were super flimsy. Another big question I have now, is whether or not to keep a shield for the higher armor and lower damage cap, or pick up a mojo for faster killing power. Bleed stacking isn't nearly as effective now unless they MASSIVELY boosted bleed damage, so I won't be keeping it up. Decisions decisions.

(also, posting this in the new thread too)
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Would be easier if you actually gave % values instead of just static numbers. I'll edit this post in a second though, gadda find find the darn armor/resist to % ratio formula.

-edit-
Ok, still not sure if fort 20% comes into play at all, it probably will but didn't use it in any of this. Also remember this is just Dogs, I don't know base health for Garg, but he ultimately has same max hit and at least gets 100% of your HP stacked onto his so... 'more' would be apt for him (probably double-ish).

Armor: 63.58%
Resist: 74.49%
Max DMG: 929.0742 in 1 hit
Health: 28550 (34260 with 20% passive)
-----------------------------------------------
Total hits: 31 (37 20% hp passive)


you are also assuming 20% health goes off of adjusted health and not base health.
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That's true, would be a bit pointless for it not to go off the total amount though. And the only real reason you'd even think that is due to them mentioning a base HP value for the 'force armor' max hit thing.

If the 20% is 'only' off the base then its 33 max hits per dog - but your still getting 4 dogs instead of 3. So more dmg, more health on the field either way. It's the biggest tank boost in the passives as far as are pets are concerned.

So one way or another, its a solid passive for any pet WD.

-edit-
Well, biggest tank boost that's unrelated to equipment I should say. With enough +life regen Fierce Loyalty will be amaaazing now.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 9:44 AM PDT
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Yeah shields are silly. That alone is reason enough to not use one but your better off with the DMG boost you get from a mojo (and other useful effects like regen or skill specific things). And hey in a few weeks we'll start seeing some nice 2H stuff... what im hoping for anyway. But that's cause I like the 2H look on WD (axe, specially) over Mojo.

Though my giant demon chicken head helmet with a snake mojo looks kinda funny. Demon Chicken runnin' around with his snack.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/21/2012 9:56 AM PDT
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