Diablo® III

Witch Doctor Pet Guide (Patch 1.0.4) - old

Just adding a couple things that I have noticed, and would love if anyone can confirm (or even deny. As I've always supported the pet build, and want as much info out there as possible).

I recently just found/changed shields into one which pumped my hp up another 10k, but reduced my passive hp regen by 326 per second. In doing so I noticed two things. (Could be my imagination on these, hence me looking for confirmation, but I'm fairly certain I'm correct)

First: My pets (dogs and garg both) seem to regen hp (based on how quickly their bar refills) around the same rate. Which leads me to believe the new automatic passive regens for both are a % of max health on the pets. (which makes sense, as Blizz was trying to bring the passives up to an amount that is useful equally to those who are going glass cannon as those who focus pets.)

Second: I use Spirit Walk+healing Journey as a healing source for my pets. But I've noticed the more my max hp goes up, the less healing journey seems to help my garg's hp bar. Which seems to me, to help confirm that the Gargantuan, with the secondary 50% increase, has it's hp scale by more than 100% of the owner's. (Hopefully suggesting that the base scaling is 100% of owners, followed by the 50%. :) )

Just a couple observations, will continue to watch them myself, but thought I'd bring them to the community to look over as well.

Side Note: Those, who like me, were gearing for a CC build. Go switch over to Raid of Toads as your primary, choose your favorite Garg form (as he no-longer procs) and enjoy as the rain of toads is now completely spammable with the mana cost reduction+ new improved mana regen. Plus, rain procs fairly well.

Also of note, the rain-o-toads seems to proc more often the larger the target.... W00 for bosses being fairly large in size always. (with 3.8% chance to freeze, 2.7% to stun, and 4.5% to knockback, and using leeching beasts instead of burning dogs [will be switching back soon since I just saw that dogs DO still proc.. just really really low]. I manage to stun/freeze Diablo fairly often still. About once every 3-5 seconds. Enough to interrupt a lot of his more deadly-to-pets attacks. As well as reducing his average spike traps to about 3 instead of 6 for me due to interupts)
with 17k of dps you can put 10k of armor and 900 all resist and your pets will die, before you kill something hahaha, 17k of dps is too low for act 3 and iv
I was speculating in another thread due to the wording in the patch the Garg has same HP scale as the Dogs, and gains, eventually (probably starting at 30+) to an extra 50%, putting it at 85%. The key there is they have higher base HP then dogs, something like 20-30k hp. If you work off 20k, you would need 150k hp in total to bypass there HP going off 85% of your own.

As an example, 50k on an owner, with say 20% passive (Zombie Handler) off that a Gargantuan would end up with 75000hp, basing that off a 'base' hp of 20k for Garg. 30k would be more around 87000hp. So, as you can see, even just 85% is well over the players current HP of 50k at that point. And ultimately would just stay above the players for an unreasonable amount.

-edit-
Of course that doesn't explain why you'd see a less effective Healing Journey rune on the Garg and maybe it really is 150% total. Anything less would ultimately show a mildly more effective version as the base HP vs your HP totals become smaller and smaller making your health make up even a larger majority... ultimately making the heal more effective.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/25/2012 6:49 AM PDT
Looks like the only way we will find the answer, is to heavily test it.
Vacile now that's just untrue. I have less resist/armor and only had about 15-16k dps there for awhile and I was doing fine in A3-4. Stuff dies extremely fast in solo and in MP my dogs tanked better then most melee and let me play heavy support. To the point everyone starts to naturally follow me around to keep me in front.

It's a bizar feeling cause folks never did that in D2 heh, and sure as hell didn't do it in D3 up till this patch. Now it's everyone letting the WD pets just wander out front so they keep things still and out of there face.

-edit-
@Peter, that or get lucky and have a blue show up and be all 'yo this is how it is'... but that's unlikely. I think Healing Journey is the best bet we have at testing it as kitsunekune mentioned seeing. Go no regen, make the garg take some heavy hits, HJ it up see what happens.
Edited by Adhin#1350 on 8/25/2012 6:54 AM PDT
Folks there is a very strange puzzle with Force Armor.

I just tested against our friendly Walking Corpse from Inferno Act 1.

From painful experimentation, it does 27k to 52k damage in 1 hit.

I have 10,006 life.
With 1570 Armor (34.35%) and 94 Resistances (23.77%), I should get 50% damage reduction.

0.6565 * 0.7623 = 0.50044995.

But, when I sent zombie dogs after it, they died in 1 hit, not 2.
With 50% damage reduction, they should take at least 2 hits. But the damage cap of 10,000 never happened.

I'm gonna experiment with this.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 8/25/2012 7:45 AM PDT
08/21/2012 02:49 AMPosted by Peter
First, aim for armor and resistances to reduce damage taken by both you and pets. Aim for decent amounts but don't go overboard with it because there are diminishing returns at high numbers.
ARMOR AND RESISTANCE DO NOT HAVE DIMINISHING RETURNS

The eHP scalar from Armor/Resists is LINEAR, every 3000 (against level 60 mobs) Armor will increase your eHP by 100% of your base HP (before Resists). Every 300 Resist (against level 60 mobs) will increase your eHP by 100% of your base HP (before Armor). These two scalars are multiplicative with each other (that is to say that your "base HP" for one is equal to your eHP from the other alone).

"Diminishing Returns" on Armor/Resist are a fallacy born from the fact that your raw damage reduction stat displays less and less percentage return, but the relative return stays constant.

The real reason you "don't go overboard" is because it gets prohibitively expensive. Also you need to note that the defenses are most efficient in a 10:1 ratio of Armor:Resists.

Edit: IIRC pets have DPS normalized damage per atack, so actually AS is important to amplify pet damage (consider that +10% AS if you have no +AS is +10% damage. Now apply that to the garg who does 100% of your DPS *per hit* assuming he is DPS normalized)

Edit2: Did they remove CC prcs from big stinker? You seem to be implying that. IIRC it was proccing at 1.0
Edited by Autocthon#1276 on 8/25/2012 8:20 AM PDT
That's kinda... crazy, what rune did you have set? Some folks have run into issues of it not triggering at any hp/armor/ar with out a rune at all, or the 10% dmg absorb from player.
08/25/2012 06:14 AMPosted by Vacilo
with 17k of dps you can put 10k of armor and 900 all resist and your pets will die, before you kill something hahaha, 17k of dps is too low for act 3 and iv


Not true. You can clear inferno with 17k. And there's ways of building that can double that damage number, and skill uses where you put out 250% your damage number per second to everything on the screen.
Folks there is a very strange puzzle with Force Armor.

I just tested against our friendly Walking Corpse from Inferno Act 1.

From painful experimentation, it does 27k to 52k damage in 1 hit.

I have 10,006 life.
With 1570 Armor (34.35%) and 94 Resistances (23.77%), I should get 50% damage reduction.

0.6565 * 0.7623 = 0.50044995.

But, when I sent zombie dogs after it, they died in 1 hit, not 2.
With 50% damage reduction, they should take at least 2 hits. But the damage cap of 10,000 never happened.

I'm gonna experiment with this.


As adhin said, take care of the rune. Lifelink and unruned dogs seem to be bugged.

It's possible they tweaked the way mitigation is inherited by the pets, or perhaps they made it a flat 35% of your health instead of 10K plus 35%? Very odd if you weren't using unruned or lifelink dogs though.
I am using this spec http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#YRWdTU!Ube!cabYac
and I can solo everything with it in Inferno.

I kept my LOH, some of my cc, gimped my hp a little and increased my damage.
My main damaging skill is of course the Acid Cloud paired with the frogs. They are awesome for proc and LOH purposes, this way I can safely go against anything, withouth fearing of dying. Acid Clouds gets me up to full hp in 2 seconds.

Granted, I might not kill as fast as the guys with Zombie Bears, but never dying once in a full act3-4 inferno clear is something that equals the feeling of facerolling with the straightforward and heavy Bear build.
Edited by Horcsog#2726 on 8/25/2012 8:19 AM PDT
@Autochon: That's true but with a low static HP, while each 300/3000 will ultimately result in 100% of your HP, it's much easier to go from 20k to 40k which makes those percents ultimately have even that much more effect in relation to the 20k HP. I think that's all he meant. Plus equipment wise, there are other factors outside of those 2 such as regen and life on hit.

Saw a Barbarian awhile ago with 141k HP, 10k armor (unbuffed) and 900 all resist. Only about 12k DPS. Didn't have much LoH, not much Regen, just absurd armor/ar/hp values. He could of toned down 41k of that hp, some of that armor and AR, gotten a hell of a lot more LoH/Regen for it, upped his DPS while he was at it and ultimately been better off.

But srsly that dude never died so that was kinda cool to see that level of extreme defense. I think ultimately, while each piece of armor and resist are equal in relation to each other, as its a linear scale, so is HP, so is everything else in the game. And often times 'getting enough' is a good point to start looking for other things. Though extremes can be fun depending on the build.
First, aim for armor and resistances to reduce damage taken by both you and pets. Aim for decent amounts but don't go overboard with it because there are diminishing returns at high numbers.
ARMOR AND RESISTANCE DO NOT HAVE DIMINISHING RETURNS

The eHP scalar from Armor/Resists is LINEAR, every 3000 (against level 60 mobs) Armor will increase your eHP by 100% of your base HP (before Resists). Every 300 Resist (against level 60 mobs) will increase your eHP by 100% of your base HP (before Armor). These two scalars are multiplicative with each other (that is to say that your "base HP" for one is equal to your eHP from the other alone).

"Diminishing Returns" on Armor/Resist are a fallacy born from the fact that your raw damage reduction stat displays less and less percentage return, but the relative return stays constant.

The real reason you "don't go overboard" is because it gets prohibitively expensive. Also you need to note that the defenses are most efficient in a 10:1 ratio of Armor:Resists.

Edit: IIRC pets have DPS normalized damage per atack, so actually AS is important to amplify pet damage (consider that +10% AS if you have no +AS is +10% damage. Now apply that to the garg who does 100% of your DPS *per hit* assuming he is DPS normalized)

Edit2: Did they remove CC prcs from big stinker? You seem to be implying that. IIRC it was proccing at 1.0


Maybe diminishing returns was the wrong term, I'll reword it later. But my point was that I had only 13k health initially but very high armor and resistances. Cydaea was extremely hard. But once I boosted my health to 25k, she was easier. So you get more out of vitality than even higher armor/resistances.

As for dps, argh the calculations hurt my head ... ok let me absorb your info later.

Yes the Gargantuan can no longer generate procs.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 8/25/2012 8:45 AM PDT
08/25/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Adhin
That's kinda... crazy, what rune did you have set? Some folks have run into issues of it not triggering at any hp/armor/ar with out a rune at all, or the 10% dmg absorb from player.



As adhin said, take care of the rune. Lifelink and unruned dogs seem to be bugged.

It's possible they tweaked the way mitigation is inherited by the pets, or perhaps they made it a flat 35% of your health instead of 10K plus 35%? Very odd if you weren't using unruned or lifelink dogs though.


I was indeed using un-runed dogs to experiment. Thanks for the info!
@Autochon: That's true but with a low static HP, while each 300/3000 will ultimately result in 100% of your HP, it's much easier to go from 20k to 40k which makes those percents ultimately have even that much more effect in relation to the 20k HP. I think that's all he meant. Plus equipment wise, there are other factors outside of those 2 such as regen and life on hit.

Saw a Barbarian awhile ago with 141k HP, 10k armor (unbuffed) and 900 all resist. Only about 12k DPS. Didn't have much LoH, not much Regen, just absurd armor/ar/hp values. He could of toned down 41k of that hp, some of that armor and AR, gotten a hell of a lot more LoH/Regen for it, upped his DPS while he was at it and ultimately been better off.

But srsly that dude never died so that was kinda cool to see that level of extreme defense. I think ultimately, while each piece of armor and resist are equal in relation to each other, as its a linear scale, so is HP, so is everything else in the game. And often times 'getting enough' is a good point to start looking for other things. Though extremes can be fun depending on the build.



Maybe diminishing returns was the wrong term, I'll reword it later. But my point was that I had only 13k health initially but very high armor and resistances. Cydaea was extremely hard. But once I boosted my health to 25k, she was easier. So you get more out of vitality than even higher armor/resistances.

As for dps, argh the calculations hurt my head ... ok let me absorb your info later.

Yes the Gargantuan can no longer generate procs.
]My issue is with the misinformation of the statement.

Though *technically* (the barbarian statement) you could maintain massive HP+Armor+Resists while retaining effective DPS, the issue is prohibitive expense. Saying that there are diminishing returns remains a false statement. It's all about itemization possibility and not loss of effectiveness. Though on a barbarian going full tank and not bothering with LoH is viable enough due to the presence of Revenge (as well as a few other options).

Technically all told defenses AND offenses have a final exponential growth rate (each are made up of at *least* three base stats that are multiplicative with each other).

There's actually a formula somewhere that can equate defenses between each other in terms of relative value. I mostly just do the eHP math in my head and rely on tooltips when I'm trying to maximize mitigation specifically.

It's too bad gargy lost his proccing though :( not in any patch notes I've read *cries*
Folks I've done some testing to figure out the base life of the Zombie Dog and the Gargantuan.

I made sure that Force Armor activated by making the pets tank the zombies in Inferno Act 1 without me wearing gear. They either die or they remain alive with a few mm of life left, the latter meaning that Force Armor triggered. It is normal that they have a few mm of life left, because pets DO gain a % of our life. And I still have 4931 life despite not wearing any gear.
The damage that the Force Armor absorbs, is the base life amount. That is how Force Armor works.

The Zombie Dog took 63 seconds to fully heal itself.
With an additional 100 life regen, the time to fully heal is reduced to 37 seconds.
100 life regen contributed to 26 seconds.
Base Life Regeneration = 100*37/26 = 142.3

Force armor absorbed 142.3*63 seconds = 8964.9

But wait, I do have 146 armor and 20 physical resistance, that reduces damage by 10.600763%. That means 8964.9 damage absorbed was only 89.399237% of the damage.

Full damage absorbed without base damage reduction = 8964.9 * 100% / 89.399237% = 10027.94

So it seems that Zombie Dogs do indeed have 10,000 base life.

As for the Gargantuan, it took 90 seconds to fully heal itself.
With an additional 100 life regen, the time to fully heal is reduced to 68 seconds.
100 life regen contributed to 22 seconds.
Base Life Regeneration = 100*68/22 = 309.09

Force Armor absorbed 309.09 * 90 seconds = 27818.1
Full damage absorbed without base damage reduction = 27818.1 * 100% / 89.399237% = 31116.71

Seeing as the devs like to round pets' life to the nearest 10,000 based on the zombie dog's life, it is safe to assume that the Gargantuan has a base life of 30,000.

Edit: Previously I did do something wrong. I erroneously thought that the Gargantuan took 150 seconds to fully heal itself. It only took 90, I added an extra minute by accident, it's late here.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 8/25/2012 12:11 PM PDT
so, update on garg health scaling.

Just went through some personal testing to see if my theory was correct. Compared how much of the bar I heal when at 51k hp versus how much I heal when at 22k. Both times let my garg take damage from the mobs in act III, inferno Areat Core, until at approx 50% hp. (Far enough down that even with the passive regen, would not reach the full mark. and compared how much of the bar remained to be filled)

Results: first and foremost, I can now be certain gargs at least, have a passive regen based on a percentage of their total hp. Whatever that number is. It takes an identical amount of time for a gargantuan with hp scaled to 22k, with hp regen increased by 488 per second, to regen to full from half. As it did when scaled against 51k hp, 488 passive bonus, from halfway. (I tested this back and forth so many times, even comparing at 31k from my lack of spear, making it take a very long time to kill things from my adjusted base damage of 2k XD. That the areat core no-longer had a single monster left alive in it). Each time, from halfway took about 27-30 seconds. (slight variation due to trying to "eyeball" it. But this 27-30 second range appeared at all hp levels.)

Secondly, my assertion that healing journey was healing less at high levels is accurate, if not as drastically different as I thought. (new game, once again testing throughout the Areat Core, once again eyeballing it.) At 22k hp, triggering one healing journey at half hp took approximately 4-6 seconds to finish regen to full hp. At 31k, after a single healing journey, it took 5-7 seconds. And at 51k, after 1 healing journey, the remainder took 7-10 seconds to finish healing. Putting this with the above regen test, I must conclude the garg, with the 50% bonus applied, scales at over 100% hp of owner. how much more, I can't be certain.

Now, like any good scientist I will point out I was not using an exact measurement, nor was i able to test more than about 20 times for each hp level. So, in essence, my test does not "prove" anything. ('Bad' control group as the control conditions weren't precisely controlled. 'Small' number of case studies due to limited enemy mobs.) However, I present it here as evidence that there is a strong possibility that my statements are true. And that until someone can disprove them, I shall continue to base my build under the assumption that my 51k hp, makes up for my complete lack of resists... (hp, regen, int, armor, resists, and decent armor simply don't come together for my income amount at this time... so I sacrificed resists. lol)

EDIT: the deleted post below this was in reply to peter's question on whether he made a mistake. he saw it by the time I replied, so i removed mine to save scrolling space.
Edited by kitsunekune#1437 on 8/25/2012 12:10 PM PDT
It's late here so I'll post this quickly.

kitsune I tested your theory briefly by increasing my health from 4931 to 20016, and made my Gargantuan activate Force Armor.

In both cases the Gargantuan still takes ~90 seconds to fully heal itself.

Now about Force Armor, notice that in my previous post I said sometimes my pets die, and sometimes they survive because Force Armor is activated.

The zombie concerned does 18k to 36k damage per hit.

This means that Force Armor will only cap damage up to a certain point. If an enemy's damage exceeds a certain threshold, Force Armor doesn't cap and the dog dies.
If an enemy's damage does not exceed the threshold, Force Armor caps and the dog survives.

That threshold seems to be between 18k and 36k.

But of course, if I use my full gear, the dog always survives and correctly only loses millimetres of life from every hit.

So there is a pattern here.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 8/25/2012 12:18 PM PDT
@Peter

So that does support the theory that Gargs have a passive regen that scales to their hp. Good to know.

As for the experimentation with the force armor. That threshold would explain the One-shots from the mallet lords. They are hitting above the damage cap threshold. Which, if the threshold scales up as the damage cap scales up, would explain the pattern.
Edited by kitsunekune#1437 on 8/25/2012 12:22 PM PDT
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