Diablo® III

Guild Wars 2 is way better then wow and D3

Its a zerg fest. Skills feel mushy and undefined like you are slapping your opponent to death with a wet noodle. Only played thief and elementalist so far.

Oh ya forgot to mention Im bored to death of the same four or whatever battlegrounds that are all variations of arathi basin.

Maybe it will be fun in smaller doses Im looking at 90 hours played so far. Gonna give wvwvw a try.
Edited by Slithershade#1315 on 9/9/2012 11:37 PM PDT
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Lol wow did have spectacular presentation when Classic and TBC released. Seamless world. Going from zone to zone was a hell of a lot more cool and fun then a loading screen in Everquest.

Windriders, Instances, The world itself. I wonder if you played pre WoW mmos, or classic wow in comparison.

Your right; it has a much harder time nowadays, 6-8 years later, having the same kind of impact with its outdated engine. The presentation at its release, however, was top-notch. The story and story telling at the time, again, was pretty top notch. It got convoluted and stupid by the 2nd expansion but what MMO doesnt. They just slap crap in a box and try and make money off it.

People take for granted all the little things WoW added to mmos to become the best, either because they never played those other grind monsters, or they just burnt out.

I get you dont like wow anymore. Most dont. I dont like it either. I play mostly Fps's nowadays. However that doesnt change the fact that wow did alot more then it gets credit for, and seems to be hated on for very poor reasons.

I personally didnt care for Baldurs gate 2. Not my cup of tea. How can you say that game has any presentation in its current state? It doesnt. It looks and feels like a steaming pile of crap. Is it still a good game? Probably is still a great game. But if you are gonna use its "heyday" presentation and whatnot, dont over-look wow's additions to a crappy, load screen, bland world, etc genre.

So, now you've decided that since I don't love WoW that I must not have played classic WoW? I was there back in '04. But that doesn't affect my opinion.

Yes, WoW did bring a bunch of new things to the genre. However, did I ever find myself saying "Wow, this is a beautiful game!"? No. Never. The graphics were okay. Decent enough. And the story? The story and story-telling was okay. But it was never a big draw for me. I'm not entirely sure that you understand what "top-notch" means.

As for Baldur's Gate 2? It's a 12 year old game. Obviously it's going to look outdated. Graphically speaking, it's very average. However, I think it's one of the truly great games because it has great gameplay, great story, and great graphics.

How am I not giving WoW enough credit? I'm describing it as a cultural landmark in the gaming world that brought MMOs into the mainstream. I don't have much experience with the monstrous grinds that came with WoW's predecessors, but I have heard about them from people who played those games. The trouble is that WoW is still a grind-heavy game.

WoW is a good game that did a lot for the genre. But it's not a great game in my estimation.
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09/09/2012 08:41 PMPosted by DynomiteDave
I personally didnt care for Baldurs gate 2. Not my cup of tea. How can you say that game has any presentation in its current state? It doesnt. It looks and feels like a steaming pile of crap. Is it still a good game? Probably is still a great game. But if you are gonna use its "heyday" presentation and whatnot, dont over-look wow's additions to a crappy, load screen, bland world, etc genre.


This is your opinion, and i respect it even though i disagree with it. The BG2 series was is the best rpg of all time. No, it did not have beautifully rendered videos or graphics. No, it did not have convenient waypoints or quest markers. What does it have? It had a good story which rewards you for your effort. It reacted with you and your actions to a degree even new games like Dragon Age failed to match. It chalenges you mentally with puzzles and combat instead of giving you all the answers. It doesn't give a f*** about its popularity. I played it more than 10 years ago and i played it again 2 years ago and i enjoyed my self both times. To me that makes it a great game.

I played wow for a week and i was bored of grinding for everything. I played GW2 since it got it last week and i felt that i have barely scratched the surface. There is no question which i prefer. Nobody is questioning WoWs' importance but even you mentioned they are not making the game fun anymore. We are gamers, not businessmen/businesswoman we dont give a f*** about revenue or popularity. We want to enjoy ourselves.

And dont go deciding yourself who is majority and minority!

P.S. another reason to like BG2; Minsc And Boo! Diablo 3 couldn't even make me care if Leah died
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 9/10/2012 3:22 AM PDT
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Dont even get me started on how Blizzard conveniently changes the background lore of Warcraft, Starcraft and most recently Diablo to suite their sales!

Dont me wrong, im not here to rant about Blizzard. Diablo 2, Starcraft 1, Warcraft 2 & 3, World of Warcraft(original) were games that defined the industry. But lately it feels as if Blizzard has lost its touch and is more focused on making games to sell than fun and impressive games. Releasing Diablo 3 which is basically still a beta stage game is crossing the line. Just my opinion.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 9/10/2012 3:32 AM PDT
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09/09/2012 11:57 PMPosted by Petyr
WoW is a good game that did a lot for the genre. But it's not a great game in my estimation.


Speaking in terms of a business and promotion value. It was "great". Monthly subscriptions + more servers + [Level/Loot/Time Spent = Status]... Its story just followed from Warcraft 3 (series) so i cant give it credit. In fact as i mentioned in "how Blizzard conveniently changes the background lore", most of it just overwrites what happens in Wc3 which is annoying if you follow the story closely. Too many inconsistencies.

09/09/2012 11:57 PMPosted by Petyr
Yes, WoW did bring a bunch of new things to the genre. However, did I ever find myself saying "Wow, this is a beautiful game!"? No. Never. The graphics were okay. Decent enough. And the story? The story and story-telling was okay. But it was never a big draw for me. I'm not entirely sure that you understand what "top-notch" means.


I was genuinely surprised with the amount of detail put into the design of certain points of the GW2 world. Not sure about graphics (i set to low graphics) but the planning(like the submerged old lions arch) and creativity is refreshing.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 9/10/2012 1:54 AM PDT
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09/10/2012 01:36 AMPosted by TheCursed
WoW is a good game that did a lot for the genre. But it's not a great game in my estimation.


Speaking in terms of a business and promotion value. It was "great". Monthly subscriptions + more servers + [Level/Loot/Time Spent = Status]... Its story just followed from Warcraft 3 (series) so i cant give it credit. In fact as i mentioned in "how Blizzard conveniently changes the background lore", most of it just overwrites what happens in Wc3 which is annoying if you follow the story closely. Too many inconsistencies.

Yes, WoW did bring a bunch of new things to the genre. However, did I ever find myself saying "Wow, this is a beautiful game!"? No. Never. The graphics were okay. Decent enough. And the story? The story and story-telling was okay. But it was never a big draw for me. I'm not entirely sure that you understand what "top-notch" means.


I was genuinely surprised with the amount of detail put into the design of certain points of the GW2 world. Not sure about graphics (i set to low graphics) but the planning(like the submerged old lions arch) and creativity is refreshing.

I definitely agree on the first point. I'm not an expert on Warcraft lore, but my understanding from others is that it's been inconsistent. From what I remember, much of it is pretty derivative also.

On the second point, I also can't play the game at peak graphical performance. I'm somewhere in the middle. However, the game still looks really good. More importantly, like you said, the art direction and art design are really fantastic. There's so much attention to detail and so much creativity in how things are presented. It's one of the facets in which I think that Guild Wars 2 has clearly outdone WoW.
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LOL!!!

You think Blizzard cares? They already got your money. And GW2 is crap, just another failed wow killer. Enjoy your crappy game! You'll be back soon...


GW2 crap?? are you serious, did you even look at the videos and the mechanics???!! dude, this is a wow killer, and a damn good one :P
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I don't really care for the above guy's attempts to push his opinion as historical facts throughout the thread. Personally, I purchased a collector's edition of GW2 and I'm still subscribed to WoW --in fact I have a raid tonight-- and personally I just can't say one game is better then the other. I find Guild Wars 2 flat-out better then World of Warcraft for solo PvE and PvP, but WoW slaps it in the face pretty hard with it comes to raiding. Guild Wars 2's dungeons are very chaotic and not too balanced, in fact they say that only a handful of people at Arenanet have defeated the exploration mode dungeons. WoW's raids are hard too but they're well structured.
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We'll see in time how end-game turns out in the long run, you may be right; you may be wrong. What I know though is that the first Guild Wars did pretty well for end-game, especially PvP but also PvE (EotN was basically 100% end-game) and it was active for a very long time. So, I really mean no offense, but I have a lot of trouble taking your doom calling seriously 3 weeks after the game's release. I can very well see myself playing Guild Wars 2 as much as I played WoW, in fact if my WoW guild disbands, that's probably what I would do.
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I don't really care for the above guy's attempts to push his opinion as historical facts throughout the thread. Personally, I purchased a collector's edition of GW2 and I'm still subscribed to WoW --in fact I have a raid tonight-- and personally I just can't say one game is better then the other. I find Guild Wars 2 flat-out better then World of Warcraft for solo PvE and PvP, but WoW slaps it in the face pretty hard with it comes to raiding. Guild Wars 2's dungeons are very chaotic and not too balanced, in fact they say that only a handful of people at Arenanet have defeated the exploration mode dungeons. WoW's raids are hard too but they're well structured.


As if every pro-GW2 person in this thread isnt doing the same thing with their opinions.

Its ok, its pretty evident the direction GW2 is going. Its twitch streams are already way down. Hell there is more ppl watching Minecraft atm. Its losing its luster because its gameplay is very novel and flash-in-the-pan. Aka no real endgame or amazing game after the initial luster wears off. Same thing that plagues countless MMOs.

Oh, !@#$. Its twitch streams are down? That does it. I'm uninstalling right now.

I'm not familiar with twitch streams, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that they're not the only way of measuring how many people play a given game. A person could point at something like xfire (which I don't consider completely reliable), and show that the cumulative numbers of hours played really haven't dipped that far. Or I could point out that this isn't a subscription-based game that is going to start hemorrhaging revenue if people start to unsubscribe.

I'm just glad that you're finally dropping the facade of you being somehow unbiased. People like the game. People are having fun. Deal with it.
Edited by ballsohard#1432 on 9/10/2012 9:59 PM PDT
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Oh, !@#$. Its twitch streams are down? That does it. I'm uninstalling right now.

I'm not familiar with twitch streams, but I'm going to go ahead and guess that they're not the only way of measuring how many people play a given game. A person could point at something like xfire (which I don't consider completely reliable), and show that the cumulative numbers of hours played really haven't dipped that far. Or I could point out that this isn't a subscription-based game that is going to start hemorrhaging revenue if people start to unsubscribe.

I'm just glad that you're finally dropping the facade of you being somehow unbiased. People like the game. People are having fun. Deal with it.


I was unbiased at the start and raised valid concerns to which I was labeled a WoW fanboy(I dont even play the damn game).

It gets to the point that you cannot say anything bad about a game without having to take a hard stance, something actual fanboys force on you.

I think Im the one of the only posters in this thread to say REAL concerns, not just "No."

This in turn got me labeled as some guy who didnt even play the game because streamers and you-tubers say the same things. Newsflash, maybe a lot of people are saying the same thing because its actually there? Its an actual concern? Just maybe.

Game isnt as good as you think it is. Deal with it, like all the other MMOs and their fans going "no".

If its dropping any fans at all before the first month is up that isnt a good sign. It never is, regardless of the spin ppl try to put on it. Maybe thats because these so-called outrageous claims about the problems of the game has some merit.

If you re-read my posts, I mention failures in wow too like Rbgs and 5v5 arenas, wintersgrasp, Tol Barad etc. for the same reason GW2 pvp sucks. But, its overlooked that I hate wow things too, because you get fixated on the fact I find GW2 pvp crap.

Don't insult other people's intelligence by claiming that you weren't (and aren't) biased. You made it clear from the beginning that you were very much in favor of WoW. You called it a great game. You accused it of being spectacular both in terms of visuals and story-telling. You're biased. Everyone is biased. Hell, I'm biased.

The problem that you run into is that you're using pretty vague terms. The only concrete "concern" that I remember you talking about is how PvP feels like a "zerg fest". Which is weird on a couple of levels. One, the so-called "zerg fest" can be a sound strategy. Or, as I like to call it, overwhelming the opponent with fast assaults and superior numbers. In fact, I was playing WvWvW last night. We cleaned out one of the zones, using fairly sound and methodical strategy. Yes, there were lulls as we did our thing with sieges of different strategic points, but we routed both of our opponents. One of my favorite PvP experiences.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I don't think that Guild Wars 2 is a perfect game. It's not like I turn on the game and it feels like I just dropped some Ecstasy. There are some flaws. Are they major flaws that ruin the game for me? No. Notice that I have yet to make any declaration about Guild Wars 2 being a pantheon game. I just think that it's a good game that I really enjoy. And I've noticed that a lot of other people are enjoying it.

Is it dropping fans? Twitch streams are dipping, but that's a single piece of anecdotal evidence. I'm sure there are other pieces of anecdotal evidence that'd tell you that it's doing just fine.

Please, stop conflating opinions with facts. You take your opinion (I don't like GW2 PvP), and pass it off as a fact (GW2 PvP sucks). That doesn't mean that you're not entitled to an opinion. The world would be boring if everyone just agreed. But don't try to pass off your opinions as facts. Furthermore, don't use the logical fallacy of "Lots of people agree with me, so I know I must be right!".

Great, you hate things in WoW too. But that doesn't exactly cancel out you calling WoW a great game with spectacular visuals and story-telling.
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It seems to be doing great so far. I'm not sure that it's for the die-hard PvP crew (may be it is, but maybe not.) However, it's still the third-most-played game on XFire, and the ratings on MMORPG.com are the highest I've ever seen for an MMO on release - nearly a full point ahead of second place.

Anecdotal evidence: Im still loving it. :)
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
5680
I just wanted to add that if PvP in GW2 is as bad as it sounds on here, the game just lost a big amount of players.

PvP in WoW is amazing, I don't play it anymore because I don't have the time, but theres so much into it that can win or lose a battle.

yes, gear will instantly choose who wins or loses, it rewards the most active players who get their gear first by playing every week.

Gear means much less after everyone has the same or close to.

I think the real reason behind why RBGs are not as popular as arenas is because 1. To win you have to organise a structured group of specific classes of players who meet skill and gear requirments, then they must meet the rating requirement of the group or the player/team won't play well together because the team or player will be uneven with the rest. You have to have a good leader which is very rare, someone who does their job and then provide accurate orders, a target caller for specific maps, players with multiple specializations and gear sets for the seperate specs (In one map you need a Tank/Flag carrier, but when you switch to a non flag map, a Tank will be a waste.)

As for arena play, teams must communicate correctly, know exactly what your team / enemies are doing, know how the other classes are played, know how to juke (casting then stop casting, then casting again to avoid spell interruptions, one interrupt can instantly lead to your death if your teammates cannot save you or if your cooldowns are not ready) ... (Cooldowns are the powerful spells that take 2-5 minutes to be playable again and can instantly change the tide of a battle)

For example, your a rogue, and your healer is under attack by melee and just got inerrupted and cannot defend himself, your new job is to use your spells to slow the enemy so the healer can kite and avoid death.

Then the enemy warlock fears you, you tell your teammates and the healer who is in trouble without your help is forced to use a cooldown, then dispells the fear off of you.

You then proceed to communicate with your DPS teammates to kill an enemy and crowd control the rest, and try to make a kill.

As a healer you try to LoS and kite enemy DPS while keeping your teammates in your sight and ready to heal them or dispel them, also to provide extra DPS or CC when your team is close to a kill.

A DPS has to communicate with other DPS to coordinate when to use CCs or cooldowns to try and pressure the enemy or kill them if they are out of cooldowns or their teamamates are CCed, he needs to know when his healers are not in range so he can defend himself, or try and get into range to survive.

When attacking a healer and getting juked can make you lose
When a enemy is low, following him out of range of your healer can make you lose.
Being on the wrong side of a pillar at the wrong time will make you lose.
Not knowing if your enemies attack/defensive cooldowns are ready or not will make you lose.
Not communicating enemy target switches, enemy CCs, enemy HP, enemy debuffs, enemy cooldowns, your cooldowns, your HP, your CCs, your target switches, where you're moving too, if you've been locked out, interrupted, disarmed, feared, sheeped, incapacitated, stunned, or anything of the like will make you lose.

Every second in the arena is intense, to win you have to (and your teammates) have to do so much in perfect sequence and perfect timing to effectively weaken your enemy, even if just for a few seconds. Arena players can't use their mouse to press buttons, it will affect your vision (You have to look at the buttons to do it, when you need to be looking at everything else) and it's slower than keybinds, and you need every small millisecond on your side to beat the opponent.

If GW2 is anything like this please tell me and I'll buy it tomorrow

If you even read all that, I'm just explaining WoW from my viewpoint as a ex PvP guild leader, RBG leader, and 3 time rival (Which isn't very good to be honest, but I hardly press the right things when the arenas get too intense and I'll lose for the whole team)

The part of WoW that appealed to me is the leadership positions I could fulfill, it's fun to lead a guild, and also to shout orders over skype to a team of 10 men to outwit an enemy team. I don't need good story, good graphics, or anything else as long as I have this part of PvP playability and leadership areas in the game.
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Slithus, you are welcome to read up and try GW2 if you want. If your appeal is serious competitive pvp play, then you might want to discuss with your former guildmates from WoW. This can help you get started on pvp as soon as posible. Strategy and coordination are required for most team serious matches. In GW2 however, gear and level will not make much difference. Instead you need to be able to time your attacks/dodge/block. The use(and prevention) of boon/cursed(buff/debuff) and conditions(poison,blind,etc.) also change the course of PVP battles often. It is imposible for one player to take on 2 or more other players by himself. Each class can also be customized for a specific role. For example, you may have a thief fulfill the role of the healer with the proper skills and gear. Those are the major differences i can come up with between combat WoW and GW2 PvP. There are different types of pvp matches (in gw1 there was beetle racing and dodgeball) and i have not tried them all so i cant comment on that.
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09/12/2012 12:19 AMPosted by Slithus
I just wanted to add that if PvP in GW2 is as bad as it sounds on here, the game just lost a big amount of players.


Haha, this is repeated a lot here, isn't it? Almost as if this in the only thing they can consistently use to argue against GW2. Unfortunately the only real argument provided is "WoW is better" without providing concrete examples. To be fair GW2 pvp is still in its early stages. Diablo3 didn't even go around to implementing pvp(cough*scam) yet... If this is your main focus, you should wait and see how it goes.

This should be of interest to you http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP
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Clint Eastwood for the win!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87173076@N06/7981627628/lightbox/

BTW, PvP in GW2 is much better and balanced than WOW.
1. Not Gear Grinding in PvP
2. Cooperation is the key 4 wining!
3. Much better / interesting classes
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Panzerwzh <

Yup. Gear in WoW is an arms race. Gear in GW2 is making decisions(do i want +50Vit or +50Power or +50Heal) All max lvl pvp items have the same power, so its about your skill as a player. This is why its so hard to create a balanced Diablo3 pvp, where gear is the only thing setting people apart. *Laughs at the 200mill d3 weapon* Of course this also means, in GW2, you wont be able to brag about your gear and its price will not go so high.
Edited by TheCursed#6888 on 9/12/2012 11:09 PM PDT
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