Diablo® III

+x% Elemental Damage mechanic: blue clarify!

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08/31/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Mandlebarb
I'd like to agree that the wording needs to change to something akin to what people have been suggesting, i.e. "Adds 6% damage as fire." I've actually spent the entire time until reading this post thinking that Triumvirate was pretty useless because two of the three damage enhancing affixes wouldn't apply to my attacks (I'm purely arcane damage). Also, I had no idea that +% to damage DID get affected by +min/max damage affixes but NOT by +elemental damage affixes. That's an extremely confusing system that really separates those style of weapons that I think the majority of players felt were absolutely equivalent.


To be fair, +min +max damage weps have always been better than +elemental damage weps because the weapon sta t+xx% damage only effects base damage and +min +max but NOT elemental damage ...

Which is what 100% of the top damage weps on the AH are +min +max +xx% weps and not fire or something.

What about the +%damage modifier affix on weapons? How is this taken into consideration? Is it a part of the 'base damage range of your weapon'?


If your wep is a 100-200 damage wep BASE with a +50% damage modifier on it, the "Adds x% to <element>" affix will effect the TOTAL physical damage of your wep AFTER the physical modifier.
Base damage 100-200 * 1.5 = 150 - 300 TOOLTIP damage
5% zunimassa's boots
2 * 0.05 * 150 = 15 additional poison damage
Total weapon damage after zuni boots = 165 - 300
08/31/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Lylirra
We realize the current wording for this affix can be confusing, and it's something we'd like to make more clear in the future. If you have any suggestions for how this affix could be better worded, we're definitely interested in your suggestions. Just keep in mind that space is limited in item tooltips, and that whatever we use would need to be translated into all of our supported languages.

How about "Increases physical damage by % as Element"?
To be fair, +min +max damage weps have always been better than +elemental damage weps because the weapon sta t+xx% damage only effects base damage and +min +max but NOT elemental damage ...

Which is what 100% of the top damage weps on the AH are +min +max +xx% weps and not fire or something.


Sure, that's true, but at least there's a very clear presentation that illuminates that fact. It's calculated for us by the raw DPS, so we don't even need to know how the +% damage interacts with elemental versus min/max, we just need to sort by DPS. However, it's easy to simply sort by DPS and overlook the fact that your other +% damage affixes which aren't coming directly from your weapon and therefore aren't calculated for you on-the-spot aren't actually having the effect you thought they were on your overall DPS.

What about the +%damage modifier affix on weapons? How is this taken into consideration? Is it a part of the 'base damage range of your weapon'?


If your wep is a 100-200 damage wep BASE with a +50% damage modifier on it, the "Adds x% to <element>" affix will effect the TOTAL physical damage of your wep AFTER the physical modifier.
Base damage 100-200 * 1.5 = 150 - 300 TOOLTIP damage
5% zunimassa's boots
2 * 0.05 * 150 = 15 additional poison damage
Total weapon damage after zuni boots = 165 - 300


Gotchya

One more follow up Q:

Does this mean, when using +% ele damage affixes, rings, OHs, Ammys, etc That +min affix or +xx-yy affix is better than +max affix? Or, in the case of OHs, two with the same average damage, but with different min/max, the one with the greater min is better?

Also, you say +%dmg affix is on the tooltip for the physical damage, is +min/max also?
Edited by CrazyJay#1952 on 8/31/2012 2:07 PM PDT
The "+x% Elemental Damage" affix works by adding "x%" of your physical damage to your attack, in the form of the damage type listed.

So, really basic example:
  • Your physical damage is 100, and the item adds +3% Fire damage.
  • You gain 3 extra damage to your attacks as Fire damage.


Things this takes into account:
  • Rings, mojos, orbs (etc) that have an "X-Y" damage affix (e.g. "1-2 Damage")
  • The base damage range of your weapon, before any elemental damage is added from the affix
  • +Min or +Max affixes on weapons

(Note: It doesn't benefit from "+X-Y Elemental Damage" affixes on weapons.)

We realize the current wording for this affix can be confusing, and it's something we'd like to make more clear in the future. If you have any suggestions for how this affix could be better worded, we're definitely interested in your suggestions. Just keep in mind that space is limited in item tooltips, and that whatever we use would need to be translated into all of our supported languages.


So, i have to ask:

Why did you add elemental damage to the weapons?, when any weapon that is based on it actually seems to be penalized in one way or another for damage calculations with no benefits since you took those out except for Cold Damage, but you added an extra penalty to that one.

FYI:
No, weapon glow is not worth having inferior damage potential.

I guess that i will have to sell my new weapon and try to get a physical one

The stat on Stormcrow, Tal's ammy, SoJ, Zuni boots, ect. DOES NOT depend on the element of the skill you use. It increases the MINIMUM damage on your wep by:
2 * x% <element> * MINIMUM weapon damage


One small point of clarification - it uses all of your minimum physical damage, not just what is on your weapon. So add in the minimum physical from your jewelry and source/mojo as well.
08/31/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Mandlebarb
Also, I had no idea that +% to damage DID get affected by +min/max damage affixes but NOT by +elemental damage affixes. That's an extremely confusing system that really separates those style of weapons that I think the majority of players felt were absolutely equivalent.
There is gear that does what you are saying, it is just worded differently. Take a look at frostburn gauntlets: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/frostburn-gauntlets

The "Adds 5-6% to Cold Damage" is what is being described here. The "Cold skills deal 15-30% more damage" increases the damage of your cold skills by 15-30%.


Ya I know, I've seen them. But the other mechanic just seems like it shouldn't exist unless the elemental damage does something special, OR affects skills.

Is it just another way to add damage? Or is it for adding a slight visual effect? Either one is a little weak for having a whole different mechanic is all.
The "+x% Elemental Damage" affix works by adding "x%" of your physical damage to your attack, in the form of the damage type listed.

So, really basic example:
Your physical damage is 100, and the item adds +3% Fire damage.
You gain 3 extra damage to your attacks as Fire damage.

Things this takes into account:
Rings, mojos, orbs (etc) that have an "X-Y" damage affix (e.g. "1-2 Damage")
The base damage range of your weapon, before any elemental damage is added from the affix
+Min or +Max affixes on weapons


And what about skills that deal elemental damage? For example Rapid Fire deals physical damage, it gets the bonus damage from the affix. But Withering Fire rune turns Rapid Fire into fire damage skill. Does Rapid Fire still get the bonus from the affix? Tried to test, but it's very hard to tell with the 5% Frostburn Gauntlets I bought for 90k for the purpose of this test :)
follow up questions:

does a weapon without +elemental damage(but with what i'm assuming is physical +max-min dmg) gets a bigger boost from this affixes ? (assuming yes.)

can that extra damage crit and trigger wizard talents/snares? how does this extra damage behaves with skills ? is it transformed into the elemental kind of the skill. does it apply individually as fire/cold/arcane etc from weapon damage skills ? can this small extra damage in any situation trigger talents like wd damage reduction on poison, wizard extra dmg deal on fire, snare on cold, slow on arcane ?
The "+x% Elemental Damage" affix works by adding "x%" of your physical damage to your attack, in the form of the damage type listed.

So, really basic example:
  • Your physical damage is 100, and the item adds +3% Fire damage.
  • You gain 3 extra damage to your attacks as Fire damage.


Things this takes into account:
  • Rings, mojos, orbs (etc) that have an "X-Y" damage affix (e.g. "1-2 Damage")
  • The base damage range of your weapon, before any elemental damage is added from the affix
  • +Min or +Max affixes on weapons

(Note: It doesn't benefit from "+X-Y Elemental Damage" affixes on weapons.)

We realize the current wording for this affix can be confusing, and it's something we'd like to make more clear in the future. If you have any suggestions for how this affix could be better worded, we're definitely interested in your suggestions. Just keep in mind that space is limited in item tooltips, and that whatever we use would need to be translated into all of our supported languages.


Why is it that +x to y dmg on weapons (such as the "of Death" suffix) works way differently than +x to y elemental dmg? Often +dmg turns out to be better due to %dmg bonuses and things like this %elemental dmg are calculated from it, where elemental dmg is not? What benefit do you get from +elemental dmg?
what i am confused about is: my neck says "adds 5% to poison dmg" so do i need poison abilities to profit from it?
So If I have 5% poison damage boots & 7% Holy damage added ( from belt ) Will that be 12% addedd to all damage? 5% of it will be poison and 7% will be Holy? OR NO!?

Gotchya

One more follow up Q:

Does this mean, when using +% ele damage affixes, rings, OHs, Ammys, etc That +min affix or +xx-yy affix is better than +max affix? Or, in the case of OHs, two with the same average damage, but with different min/max, the one with the greater min is better?

Also, you say +%dmg affix is on the tooltip for the physical damage, is +min/max also?


Yes, items with higher MIN damage are currently better than their lower min higher max same dps counterparts if you use other items with the "Adds x% to <elemental> damage".


One small point of clarification - it uses all of your minimum physical damage, not just what is on your weapon. So add in the minimum physical from your jewelry and source/mojo as well.


This is 100% true, however the reason it is true is that all other items that have +min +max or +xx-xx damage on them also add to your base weapon damage without being represented in the weapon's tooltip.

If you have a 100-200 damage wep and wear a ring with +15min damage and an ammy with +15max damage your wep will actually have 115-215 damage.


And what about skills that deal elemental damage? For example Rapid Fire deals physical damage, it gets the bonus damage from the affix. But Withering Fire rune turns Rapid Fire into fire damage skill. Does Rapid Fire still get the bonus from the affix? Tried to test, but it's very hard to tell with the 5% Frostburn Gauntlets I bought for 90k for the purpose of this test :)


The Affix adds to your base weapon damage and, therefore, increases the damage of every single skill you have that bases its damage on your weapon. The element of said skills do not matter.

follow up questions:

does a weapon without +elemental damage(but with what i'm assuming is physical +max-min dmg) gets a bigger boost from this affixes ? (assuming yes.)


For a full explanation with examples of how this interaction works, please read my response on page 3 of this thread.


can that extra damage crit and trigger wizard talents/snares? how does this extra damage behaves with skills ? is it transformed into the elemental kind of the skill. does it apply individually as fire/cold/arcane etc from weapon damage skills ? can this small extra damage in any situation trigger talents like wd damage reduction on poison, wizard extra dmg deal on fire, snare on cold, slow on arcane ?


The extra damage behaves exactly like the elemental damage you find on weapons all the time. It will be turned into the element of your chosen spell.

If your spell has no element it will use the element of your HIGHEST elemental damage (usually the affix on your wep).

If your wep is an all physical wep and you use a skill without an element, it will use the element of your "Adds x% to <elemental> damage" affix to determine which element to do.

The extra damage is NOT separate from your weapon and therefore can't proc things or do much of anything outside increase your dps.

Why is it that +x to y dmg on weapons (such as the "of Death" suffix) works way differently than +x to y elemental dmg? Often +dmg turns out to be better due to %dmg bonuses and things like this %elemental dmg are calculated from it, where elemental dmg is not? What benefit do you get from +elemental dmg?


I believe that the +elemental damage affixes used to have status effects attached to them and they all did less dps (like cold damage) than the +min +max affix. This was removed because everyone always chose more dps over having status effects but it was never fixed so the inherent downsides of +elemental damage still exist.

08/31/2012 02:32 PMPosted by KingLouie
what i am confused about is: my neck says "adds 5% to poison dmg" so do i need poison abilities to profit from it?


Please read my detailed explanation on page 3 of this post.
Short answer: no.

So If I have 5% poison damage boots & 7% Holy damage added ( from belt ) Will that be 12% addedd to all damage? 5% of it will be poison and 7% will be Holy? OR NO!?


Your wep will have a small Poison damage and a small Holy damage component and your attacks will increase accordingly. It is additive and you will gain up to 12% increased DPS on your paperdoll.

However, due to the affix only counting the MIN damage on your wep and ignoring +elemental damage on your wep when calculating this MIN, for many many many people it will be quite a bit less than +12%.
those that thinks they know how it works, how do you know you are right? did you actually tested?
08/31/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Ganzicus
We realize the current wording for this affix can be confusing, and it's something we'd like to make more clear in the future. If you have any suggestions for how this affix could be better worded, we're definitely interested in your suggestions. Just keep in mind that space is limited in item tooltips, and that whatever we use would need to be translated into all of our supported languages.

How about "Increases physical damage by % as Element"?


I second the "Increases physical damage by % as [Element]"

This is the least confusing way to word the property. It can be further shortened into:

"+X% physical damage as [Element]"
08/31/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Random
those that thinks they know how it works, how do you know you are right? did you actually tested?


Yes.

I spent ~6 hours and ~500k gold on testing every combination I could think of with various weps all with the same dps.
I made an excel spreadsheet and tweaked formulas until I got one that effectively predicted paperdoll DPS over a spread of 10 different weps down to the decimal.

:D
The question remains - will that %x damage be directly multiplied to your total current dps that shows on your character's sheet or not?
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