Diablo® III

LoH vs Life Steal threshold (WW barb)

I've been seeing a lot of WW barbs with no LoH on their gear. I'm doing good with my LoH got through act 4 with minimal deaths, killed Diablo and farm Act 3 just fine.. but I was wondering how much dmg should I aim for before I get life on steal and how much life steal should I aim for?
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I calculated you would need about 300k - 400k DPS for LS to be as good as LoH for ww barb.
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Heard its 70kdps unbuffed. When buffed with wotb and rage probably 150-200k dps. Think you can survive act 3 with just 500loh + 5-6% life leech.
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09/02/2012 11:25 PMPosted by Horngyuh80
Heard its 70kdps unbuffed. When buffed with wotb and rage probably 150-200k dps. Think you can survive act 3 with just 500loh + 5-6% life leech.


Nope. 70k DPS is fine if you're using any build other than WW. The damage from WW ticks for so low that LS is not effecient at all for it.
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i run act 3 fine with 5.8% life steal no loh
it's more of a test thing with your gear and play style
take it off and see if you die or not is only way to find out
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thethingx can do it with just 5.8% life steal.
Guess its doable. Heard many players said so too.
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From my experience Life on Hit seems so much better than life steal.
When I WW through just 3 mobs (pack). I heal about 5k+ health per second, when theyre more than 10 mobs my health regens at 15-20k, with WotB I heal to full in about 2 seconds lol.
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These threads really need to stop.

9% (max geared) life steal of 100,000 dps is:

100,000 x 0.09 x 0.2 = 1,800 life per second.

THINK about it. You have maybe 40k hp. Leading to 20 seconds for full regeneration.



Some assumptions here:

You are assuming that you are effectively dishing 100k dps based on your character sheet. However, this is not true - the dps figures on your sheet tells you the long-run average of damage you will deal per second if you were to hit with your current weapon without damage mod skills on a single enemy.

I am sitting at ~38k dps buffed but i clear so much faster with WW build compared to a 38k dps SnB build.

It could easily be 2 to 4 times as fast as SnB - which means my the character sheet's dps should be multiplied by 2 to 4 to relate to my actual dps experience. This implies that the life steal values should be increased by 2 to 4 times.

Besides, the value of Life steal is that it scales with your bursts. Further, with multiple attacks per second from WW and Tornadoes, the rate at which you experience crits is very much higher than the crit chance you see from your spreadsheet - this makes it even more attractive because crits can hit up to 300% of the base value. This phenomena has got something to do with the Weak Law of Large Numbers. I'll leave out the technicalities here.

Life steal works because your damage dealt (including crit values) has crossed a critical mass far greater than a long-run average of having some X health per second from LoH.

The same thing goes for 2H builds using LS - because they hit harder and crit 3x harder. Given the number of mobs you hit at the same time, the LS effects supercedes LoH by a fair margin.



If you can afford it (the one reason you might not use LoH) USE it. Otherwise show me 300k dps and I'll relent.


If you regard your actual dps experience based on your character sheet, you will be surprised at how understated the value is, esp for WW builds now.

Perhaps the value of LS is dependent on crit damage - given the condition that you have solid base dps stats.
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Not sure where that math is coming from but with an even 9% I can ww through a pack of mobs and heal from near death to full in a hell of a lot less than 20 seconds or 10 for that matter. I have 129k dps about 178 with battle rage.... does that equation take in crits into account?In 10 seconds with bash+onslaught I can crit for 400k easily 7-8 times healing large chunks of life which will out do 1k LoH.

Maybe I am reading that equation wrong but the 100k dps assumption looks like it assumes each hit is going to be for 100k which in that case the leech is low. However dps does not do exactly that damage per second that is just a formula blizzard uses.

I know LoH works well with DW but a while back I had 1k with a 2 hander and stacked Ias and it was not that great, of course this is 2h though.

edit- the above poster beat me too it with a much more thought out and in depth post lol.
Edited by HenchmanNine#1861 on 9/3/2012 5:00 AM PDT
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lifesteal becomes much more effective than loh at higher dps.. imo, around 90k with 50% crit. jump on the bandwagon now before more and more people reach higher dps, find the value in lifesteal, and prices skyrocket.

with bash crits I can get 5-6k heals. wwing (even just sprinting) through mobs with my 8.40% lifesteal has outperformed my previous 1.1k loh by a mile.
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No idea, 2.8% lifesteal i tested on with 27k dps, i am leeching only 200HP rofl.

6pcnt > 450? Bare in mind its my critical that gets me 200hp, so ~ just get a lifesteal weapon and test yourself.

of coz lifesteal is better, that if you got imba damage~
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Sheet DPS =/= actual DPS

If you've ever been to the Wizards forums you've heard of the shocknadoshardsblabla build which can do 11x sheet DPS.

Just for a quick example, I attack with Bash/Punish and Rend/Bloodlust. My buffed sheet DPS with the 3 stacks from Bash is about 75k (I have 45k DPS unbuffed).

Consider a single enemy, Bash will be hitting for 165% of my sheet DPS (no need to take into account attack speed or crits here since the sheet DPS already accounts for those).
Bash DPS = 1,65*75k = 123,7k

Rend will be hitting 140%/s, so here we take (Sheet DPS)/(attack speed) since it does damage per second regardless of attack speed (afaik, it doesn't work like wizard's Hydra which takes damage directly from sheet dps).
75k/0,93*1,4 = 112,9k

So in the end, against a single mob, from 75k sheet DPS I'm actually dealing 236k DPS.
I have 7,1% life steal and 9% more innate to Rend. So the actual life restored per second is:
236k*0,071/5 + 112,9k*0,09/5 = 5,39k life per second.

So really, that much health per second is enough for me to sit on two black pools from Azmodan. And if you add more monsters it only gets better because then Rend heals THAT much more.
Edited by Shidoshi#1966 on 9/3/2012 6:12 AM PDT
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LoH will always be better than life steal until you get to the point where your actually killing elite packs in 2 seconds with 200k dps unbuffed.

LoH allows you to get the full life on hit amount if you are forced into a situation where you have to run and kite (yay molten shielding) whereas you'll struggle to stay alive with just life steal in this situation.

You really only need around 700 or so LoH on your off-hand and life steal on your belt and you'll be able to survive. So theres no real point in changing to Life Steal on your off-hand unless you're at 200k DPS unbuffed.
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These threads really need to stop.

9% (max geared) life steal of 100,000 dps is:

100,000 x 0.09 x 0.2 = 1,800 life per second.

THINK about it. You have maybe 40k hp. Leading to 20 seconds for full regeneration.

How long does it take you to regenerate to full with 1k LoH? Maybe 5 seconds, maybe 10. Not 20.

People who claim life steal works are right. It does WORK, it can keep you alive sure. It is however far FAR inferior to LoH for a WW barb. Please let this debate stop. Don't be mislead by people who can't even take the time to put numbers in a calculator (not even necessary even).

LL vs. LS has NOTHING to do with play style or preference (unless your style is to take second best). One is better than the other period.

If you can afford it (the one reason you might not use LoH) USE it. Otherwise show me 300k dps and I'll relent.


This post is full of mis-information, mine as well ignore it. The OP got his math computations completely successfully (without a calculator apparently) but his entire premise is out in left field.

As everyone else has pointed out, your listed DPS is pretty much your auto attack DPS. Nobody plays with just auto-attack, its a metric of measurement that is very basic but should never be used to calculate true life steal mechanics.

Life on hit has coefficients, each ability only gets a % of your total LOH and doesn't scale with any stat other than attack speed increases (frequency of total hits may increase slightly). So weather you are doing 10k dps or 100k dps, you will heal for the same amount if your LOH stat is the same.

Life steal scales with your gear, has no coefficients and only suffers from a global 80% to self healing nerf on inferno difficulty. The more damage you deal, the more life you return - it is BETTER because it scales defense with your offense - you just have to reach the breakpoint on actual damage out which is the actual thing everyone is discussing and the reason why there are so many of these posts - everyone wants to know.

There is alot of conflicting statements going around, and I would like to give everyone some perspective on WHY life steal is working for some players and not really working for others.

On top of the flat out damage, there is a second component to the life steal equation that isn't being discused at all, it is the 2nd half of the mystery debate - so hear me out.

Effective Health & Mitigation.

This is the reason the reports are conflicting. One barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 700 RA and 7000 armor and another barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 800 RA and 8000 armor. They both do the same DPS, barbarian A concludes that hes not doing enough DPS while barbarian B manages to stay alive and clear act 3 without deaths.

Your leech numbers are very dependant on your effective health. If you have 80% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 5000. If you have 90% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 10,000.

The higher your mitigation is, the further your life steal will go. The higher your DPS is, the more life you will actually steal. It is a VERY complex balance of stats to understand well enough to be able to say "x% life steal works with XXXXX DPS" - you almost have to list your effective health too.

The "sweet spot" for life steal really cannot be expressed without also talking about mitigation stats in my opinion.
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These threads really need to stop.

9% (max geared) life steal of 100,000 dps is:

100,000 x 0.09 x 0.2 = 1,800 life per second.

THINK about it. You have maybe 40k hp. Leading to 20 seconds for full regeneration.

How long does it take you to regenerate to full with 1k LoH? Maybe 5 seconds, maybe 10. Not 20.

People who claim life steal works are right. It does WORK, it can keep you alive sure. It is however far FAR inferior to LoH for a WW barb. Please let this debate stop. Don't be mislead by people who can't even take the time to put numbers in a calculator (not even necessary even).

LL vs. LS has NOTHING to do with play style or preference (unless your style is to take second best). One is better than the other period.

If you can afford it (the one reason you might not use LoH) USE it. Otherwise show me 300k dps and I'll relent.


This post is full of mis-information, mine as well ignore it. The OP got his math computations completely successfully (without a calculator apparently) but his entire premise is out in left field.

As everyone else has pointed out, your listed DPS is pretty much your auto attack DPS. Nobody plays with just auto-attack, its a metric of measurement that is very basic but should never be used to calculate true life steal mechanics.

Life on hit has coefficients, each ability only gets a % of your total LOH and doesn't scale with any stat other than attack speed increases (frequency of total hits may increase slightly). So weather you are doing 10k dps or 100k dps, you will heal for the same amount if your LOH stat is the same.

Life steal scales with your gear, has no coefficients and only suffers from a global 80% to self healing nerf on inferno difficulty. The more damage you deal, the more life you return - it is BETTER because it scales defense with your offense - you just have to reach the breakpoint on actual damage out which is the actual thing everyone is discussing and the reason why there are so many of these posts - everyone wants to know.

There is alot of conflicting statements going around, and I would like to give everyone some perspective on WHY life steal is working for some players and not really working for others.

On top of the flat out damage, there is a second component to the life steal equation that isn't being discused at all, it is the 2nd half of the mystery debate - so hear me out.

Effective Health & Mitigation.

This is the reason the reports are conflicting. One barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 700 RA and 7000 armor and another barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 800 RA and 8000 armor. They both do the same DPS, barbarian A concludes that hes not doing enough DPS while barbarian B manages to stay alive and clear act 3 without deaths.

Your leech numbers are very dependant on your effective health. If you have 80% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 5000. If you have 90% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 10,000.

The higher your mitigation is, the further your life steal will go. The higher your DPS is, the more life you will actually steal. It is a VERY complex balance of stats to understand well enough to be able to say "x% life steal works with XXXXX DPS" - you almost have to list your effective health too.

The "sweet spot" for life steal really cannot be expressed without also talking about mitigation stats in my opinion.


The general rule is, Lifesteal sucks d!ck for WW barbs even at 200k DPS, but is better for all other builds at 100k> DPS.
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I'm using 5.8% life-steal with 107k DPS. Overall, I rarely have any issues in parties and zero in solo runs.
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test it for yourself. dont believe these people saying that lifesteal isnt viable.. or that you need 200k unbuffed dps for it to be worth it, lol. thats silly talk.

people arent taking into consideration your damage per hit or your crit chance. someone can have 100k unbuffed dps based around increased attack speed but only averaging 40k damage per hit.. where lifesteal would be useless compared to loh. also, lifesteal will thrive off of your crits. with 400% crit damage and 50% crit chance.. lifesteal will scale much better than loh since the difference in your non-crits and crits can range from 100k-400k more damage.
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This post is full of mis-information, mine as well ignore it. The OP got his math computations completely successfully (without a calculator apparently) but his entire premise is out in left field.

As everyone else has pointed out, your listed DPS is pretty much your auto attack DPS. Nobody plays with just auto-attack, its a metric of measurement that is very basic but should never be used to calculate true life steal mechanics.

Life on hit has coefficients, each ability only gets a % of your total LOH and doesn't scale with any stat other than attack speed increases (frequency of total hits may increase slightly). So weather you are doing 10k dps or 100k dps, you will heal for the same amount if your LOH stat is the same.

Life steal scales with your gear, has no coefficients and only suffers from a global 80% to self healing nerf on inferno difficulty. The more damage you deal, the more life you return - it is BETTER because it scales defense with your offense - you just have to reach the breakpoint on actual damage out which is the actual thing everyone is discussing and the reason why there are so many of these posts - everyone wants to know.

There is alot of conflicting statements going around, and I would like to give everyone some perspective on WHY life steal is working for some players and not really working for others.

On top of the flat out damage, there is a second component to the life steal equation that isn't being discused at all, it is the 2nd half of the mystery debate - so hear me out.

Effective Health & Mitigation.

This is the reason the reports are conflicting. One barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 700 RA and 7000 armor and another barbarian is trying 6% leech out with 800 RA and 8000 armor. They both do the same DPS, barbarian A concludes that hes not doing enough DPS while barbarian B manages to stay alive and clear act 3 without deaths.

Your leech numbers are very dependant on your effective health. If you have 80% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 5000. If you have 90% mitigation and steal 1000 health, your effective life stolen is around 10,000.

The higher your mitigation is, the further your life steal will go. The higher your DPS is, the more life you will actually steal. It is a VERY complex balance of stats to understand well enough to be able to say "x% life steal works with XXXXX DPS" - you almost have to list your effective health too.

The "sweet spot" for life steal really cannot be expressed without also talking about mitigation stats in my opinion.


The general rule is, Lifesteal sucks d!ck for WW barbs even at 200k DPS, but is better for all other builds at 100k> DPS.


Are you talking about Tornado Barbs or just one those who use WW? some always seem to assume WW is tornado, I use WW with volcano rune and life steal works great with it. I can see how it less effective with a tornado build I have played around with it some and with no LoH things are difficult at times but I do not run a tornado spec ever in any serious way.

People tend to get confused with a sprint+run like the wind WW barb or a DT barb compared to one who is a non kite spec that uses the skill, they just assume WW means kite build, most are other classes crying for WW nerfs but have no clue what they are even asking for. for my spec life steal is king and LoH not so much.

However your right in that life steal and LoH are very spec oriented and are not as close to the same thing some might think.
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5.7% LS here and been running from 83K (unbuff). Now my dps is better and still running without any issues.
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