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My observation with IP in general is that when I specced into it, I hardly used it. I used it as an emergency button only, so I felt it was better to replace it with something that i used more often.
Between warcry impunity and hardened wrath, I think it's a wash. If you have more AR, use impunity, more armor use hardened wrath. If you want to get into the math, compare the damage reduction between the two runes and use the rune giving the higher overall % mitigation. I use hardened wrath but that might change.
I think I might have figured out how exactly how the proc is calculated. See if these figures match what you see:
@ Xanderprime I think this is fairly accurate. What is your equation for calculating this? I know you run SOJ how does that add in the equation? I snagged a 1 day 12 hr auction for a barb one with reduced rend cost and 29% ed for like 15mil figured could flip for profit if need to.
I picked up vile wards purely for the regen life on them same with IK gloves. I would like more life regen on gear up to about 1500-2k. Plus IK gloves and helm you get damage redux and res all for set bonus which helps in the build.
@ Ferous I tried several other runes plus IP but crushing advance seems to work best. I really enjoy not having to wait for stuff to cool down.
Just curious what are people farming MP level. I have just been doing key runs at MP6 and the ubers at MP7 with a witch doctor friend.
It's calculated like most skills in which you take the weapon damage and multiply by a %. Then factor in your STR, crit, and crit dmg (but not attack speed (at least from what I can observe)).
The big difference between this proc vs other skills is the % actually varies.
The damage is simply 50% to 150% weapon damage.
So the basic formula is= weapon damage x (50 to 150%) x (1+(STR/100)) x (1+lightning skill bonus %)
Then just multiply above to your crit dmg% for total crit dmg. Elite and demon bonuses do count, which is why I separated the damage when I calculated yours.
Also, to calculate your avg proc tick it's =
Avg weapon dmg (if your weapon speed is 1 just use the dps figure) x (1+(STR/100)) x (1+lightning skill bonus %) x (1+(CCxCD)). No need to multiply by the weapon dmg since the avg weapon % will be 100%.
Your avg tick is 96,427. DPS with the proc is 192,854.
Edited by Xanderprime#1986 on 11/1/2012 1:58 AM PDT
If I am reading your calculations right on the average proc tick, then while CC and CD give the best return STR is the fastest way to get high proc damage (after getting 1050 DPS+ and 150 CD+)? I noticed it when playing around with the numbers that getting 300 STR would be very beneficial to me. The equation is very good and helped me understand that my Schaefer's Hammer is decent over a new one I bought and will have to sell now (1020 DPS with 49% Proc Chance and 192 CD). Now I know what I need to look for when upgrading and I am very grateful for this equation.
The only aspect I think the equation does not model is effective damage per being hit. For instance, Xanderprime you are getting better returns on your hammer than GASFISH since your dexterity is so low and you are not avoiding being hit. Basically, adding 100 %-Dodge Chance% * Proc Chance * AVG DAMAGE tick provides a very accurate picture of worst case scenario (boss fight) of getting the damage off. Further, it helps remind one that when another player uses a skill that increases dodge chance to ask the player to change to a different one. It really does hurt Schaefer's Hammer bottomline.
One personal tip I have for players that can't afford expensive items like Tyrael's Might is to seek out a Pride of Cassius with Life Steal. I got a 2.7 LS one for 1 million gold. The belt is a cheap way to get movement, Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and IAS all wrapped up into one. The legendary belt helped me neatly bypass the issue of losing Critical Chance on my bracers and Vitality on my armor. I think in the long run your setup and GASFISH is better since you benefit from my damage to elites and demons with Tyrael's Might. The belt's major problem is lack of resistance which I can personally absorb right now.
The one area that is unclear to me is the effect of extra damage from ring and amulets does to the overall damage. For instance, I have a rare ring that adds 29-51 damage. Would it be reasonable to believe it adds to the overall weapon damage (and would help the proc damage) or are we looking at a case of having to treat it like + Elemental Damage % like that of the Stone of Jordan (that does not help). Xanderprime or GASFISH have you noticed whether this mod helps?
Don't forget that the hammer's dps is also a factor in the proc dmg. The hammer you have is very good for that reason (as well as the decent crit dmg and the + lightning skill at 21%).
Agreed with DEX decreasing the effectiveness of the hammer. DEX can also "dodge lock" skills such as rend (I've died a few times thanks to that).
Not sure about +dmg items but my guess is it does increase the proc. Just add the additional dps to the hammer (in the case above add 40).
+Elemental dmg %, on the other hand, probably does not add additional. Of course I'm not totally sure.
Tek, what crit min/max do you see for the proc? Just want to check if my formula matches the proc dmg you observe.
I didn't forget the hammer's DPS is a factor, Xanderprime. That is something you taught me the other night when looking at the damage formula you came up with. But I think I am still getting the equation wrong.
Does lightning skill affect the hammer? I thought it was just the add lightning to damage that helped. Would that mean the new Schaeffer's I got might actually be better (my calculation says it might be due to proc chance)? Right now I have the choice between the two:
1.00 Attack Speed
168% Critical Damage
Add 7% Lightning Damage
21% Lightning Skill Damage
45% Proc Chance
1.00 Attack Speed
192% Critical Damage
25% Lightning Skill Damage
49% Proc Chance
I temporarily benched the damage ring for the Wailing Host I found last night. It is showing up in my profile now when you run your formula. For your information, the damage I saw tonight was 55k damage minimum and 176k damage on maximum Critical Hit after 5-10 minutes of being continually hit by enemies in Act 1 on MP 7. I was able to sit still and take notes.
When running your formula on the two weapons the average tick (assuming Lightning Skill damage is what gets represented with the damage) I got:
Hammer 1: 66012.40871
Hammer 2: 64585.5432
My equation was: (Weapon Damage x Weapon Speed) * (1 + Strength Score / 100) * (1 + Lightning Skill Damage Score / 100) * (1 + ((Critical Hit Chance Score / 100) * (Critical Damage Score / 100)). Was that wrong?
@ Xanderprime Thanks for the equation seems to help when looking at new gear. Saved from blowing 10mil on a lower dps higher crit damage weapon yesterday.
@ Tekkazerox My dex has been a thorn in my side. I needed AR on my firewalkers and they were highest strength and res all accept for stupid dex roll. Continually trying to find replacement set. Other than that 45 extra dex on IK helm can handle for now. But I 100% agree dex is bad for this build.
I believe the plus damage adds to the damage of weapon. So it should buff the lightning damage. But that wailing host you found is BA nice find.
Hammer 1 is more damage paper dps and lightning procs. I almost bought one similiar to hammer 2 and did the math on it. Seems like low 1100dps is best in slot hammer with crit.
@GASFISH: Your dex and my dex are not that bad. It basically means 14-15% dodge % chance. My issue unlike you is I have little bits and pieces of dexterity on my gear that I need to get rid of. Dexterity at low levels is annoying since it gives more bang for your buck with each point.
That is an interesting point on the plus damage on the weapon. The question is whether it gets added afterwards when say a SOJ is added or if it is added directly before like IAS on a weapon. I suspect it is the former.
Hammer 1 is a little more damage paper DPS (100 DPS really helps), but the Hammer 2 says there is more effective damage when account for the 4% extra proc. Still I have decided from your response and my own personal feelings that I will get rid of it due it being 4k less DPS overall with Battle Rage and that affects my bottom-line with Rend as well. I will put it up on GAH now.
anyone else tried the shoulders i'm using? it used to get bad rolls, now its decent coz of mp levels. it seems pretty useful with this hammer. i haven't bought andy's helm because i'll lose a lot of ehp but i think it'll be a great addition once i buy other gear that maximizes this hammer's potential with better hp/health/AR.
I am pretty sure that Andariel's Visage and Death Watch's Mantle use the same proc logic that Schaefer's Hammer does. I am already using Andariel's Visage for that reason. As for Death Watch's Mantle, I hadn't thought about using it since the stats are not superb (can't spawn ilvl 60+ stats).
I was wrong on Andariel's Critical Hit. I thought it did. Per http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/legendary-item-effects-work/#death-watch-mantle, Death Watch's Mantle does and might be an interesting supplement to the Schaefer's Hammer build. It evidently deals 4k-7.5k damage to all enemies caught in the blast while Schaefer's is normally 10k-30k. It could be another interesting way to do damage and worth analysis.
From what i'm calculating, your proc crit range is at 38,439 to 170,632 vs normal monsters and can max out vs elites at 177,457. Is that what you are seeing?
My own range is around 60k to 193k vs normal monsters. Vs elites it can crit as high as 257k and vs elite demons it can go up to 290k.
In terms of MP levels (GASFISH was asking earlier) I'm pretty comfortable farming keys at MP 8, rarely dying. For ubers, I've killed all of them solo at MP7, but was very tough vs mag/skelly and siege/ZK. I died at least 8 times vs them. I one shot ghom/rak easily. I've changed up some gear since then and now in MP6 vs ubers it's rare if I die. I'll have to try mp7 again later.
That is interesting, Xanderprime. I never saw a tick less than 55k and my upper was 176k. It is still very close. I have revamped some of my gear so my procs have been altered to increase damage and Bash Damage.
My skill list is wrong though since when fighting ubers I got for Best Served Cold and Crushing Advance. I have never tried the ubers alone nor with Schaefer's Hammer. I suspect i would not have issues on MP6, but would get raped on MP7. I typically have to run my Skorn since I key and uber run with a very efficient Critical Mass wizard. He just hit 3.00 APS so I can hardly get Schaefer's Hammer to work now even with the tricks I employed earlier on this page.
Still, compared to my WW barb build, Schaefer's Hammer really farms better for me. I feel like I am just a little bit slower, but have the flexibility of actually picking my items without panicking that I will lose Thrive on Chaos.
Gonna drag this thread up again
- Has anyone tried to use the Thunder Gods belt? I know it's a decent hit to strength (compared to lamination or witching hour) but the shocks seem to benefit from the +% to lightning damage and can crit.
Mine have done over 20k.
It is not a bad choice. The merits for using it over say Lamentation are based on one of defense (especially considering how much melee damage mitigation it can get) vs. offense. Personally, I want more offensive for Schaefer's Hammer. Further, you have to consider that Thundergod's Vigor can never get the high end affixes. To my knowledge, its item level is too low to show up in Inferno with MP enabled. I would go for something else, but it is a good choice to use, Ferg.
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