Diablo® III

Monster Power Argument... REFUTED

So in order to correctly gauge how survivability is changing I am going to define a Monster Power Constant.

MPC = MDmg% * MLife%
*I"m using the percentages as whole numbers because we don't know the actual numbers.

Current MPC = 100 * 100 = 10,000
105 MPC = 75 * 100 = 7500
MP2 MPC = 82.5 * 110 = 9075
MP3 MPC = 90 * 120 = 9948
MP4 MPC = 97.5 * 130 = 12675

What does this mean for me?? Well as a DH that doesn't use gloom I should theoretically be able to farm MP3 and get 30% more MF >.< muahahaha (assuming again that the passive changes make up for the loss of ToC damage.)


You know, you are doing your math wrong, thats an exponential gain because you must improve the monster power through multiplying the base by the new level, NOT the previous level.
This is why you shouldn't do math, it is because you do not understand it.
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09/20/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
This is why Droth made a disclaimer about the DH nerfs, stating that if they simmed out to be a net loss overall, he'd be right there beside the rest of us raging at the devs. He's a player just the same as the rest of us and dislikes nerfs just the same as we do.

Exactly right.

People assume the green text and suddenly think I'm just a shill for Blizzard.

Really, I'm just here to combat stupid.

When I know the rest of the details surrounding DH's and it actually does turn out to be a nerf, I will be raging at the Devs.

It seems everyone tends to forget how many times I'm at opposition with the development team. Honestly, I don't think they care.

As long as I have green text nothing I say is ever valid EVER because in their eyes I'm just a shill.

When I first became and MVP people were like "YAY! We get an MVP that isn't all over Blizzard's junk!" and now that tune has changed.

It's human nature to stick to the negative and forget all the positives.

But like you said Tia, no matter what the actual scale is, the survivability doesn't change.

WITH the changes we have a MORE REASONABLE chance to get to the highest Monster Power level.

But like shown, it doesn't matter what the actual numbers are, it still shows to be a net buff for the player in almost every case except for Demon Hunters (Tentative to the released changes)

09/20/2012 05:56 AMPosted by GnoSiS
No Droth, If you judge by looking blizzard's history and the way they treat the player base, it's not invalid.

Yet again, Apples are not Oranges therefore Bananas are the TASTIEST.

A =/= B Therefore C is right.

Completely unrelated argument. That's called a Strawman.
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Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 9/20/2012 6:03 AM PDT
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The exact numbers won't really matter since the defensive abilities scale with incoming damage increases, and they do so very linearly. That's exactly what Droth's charts show.


What I was meaning was exactly how the benefits of using MP will scale with the number. Will loot/xp etc. be linear to dmg/hp increases? Will all %s be the same? Far too many unknowns.

I wasn't trying to refute his argument, I was just saying that it's *way* too early to even be concerned about such things. Right now the balance issues and cc changes are a way bigger deal in my mind, as are Uberbosses.

09/20/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
This is irrelevant to this particular discussion. Procs can be fine tuned if necessary either way.


Considering how much certain classes rely on LOH/cc to survive, procs are a massive deal when it comes to any discussion of defenses. And *any number* can be tuned if necessary! :)

09/20/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
Again, irrelevant to this subject. And to be honest, it isn't the Barbarians that need to be touched, it's the rest of the classes brought up to viability that makes the player feel powerful, not nerfing a class/spec that feels powerful now just because people that don't play that class/spec are butthurt about it.


I *really* don't want to get into the barb issue now. But basically - the only classes that can really keep up with WW barbs at median gear levels are abusing bugs or ultra gimmicky 'nerf magnet' builds.

Without things like runspeed increases and cc immunities (perma WOTB is one of the big problems), it won't be easy to catch up.

09/20/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Tiapriestess
This is why Droth made a disclaimer about the DH nerfs, stating that if they simmed out to be a net loss overall, he'd be right there beside the rest of us raging at the devs. He's a player just the same as the rest of us and dislikes nerfs just the same as we do.


Agreed. I wasn't really disagreeing with his post as much as saying 'that's a nice post...but I wouldn't even start simming it out yet until we know more ^_^'.
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09/20/2012 06:00 AMPosted by Drothvader
It seems everyone tends to forget how many times I'm at opposition with the development team. Honestly, I don't think they care.


Not everyone. Need to be a little careful there and making such a broad statement.

I don't always agree with your posts, but I've never based my opinion of them on the colour of the font they used.
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I'm just here to TROLL.
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Starbird,

Just so you know, I wasn't trying to argue with you, just point out that the bullet points you made are really tangential to this particular subject, which is the scaling of defensive abilities vs. incoming damage.

It will be interesting to see if the loot quality/drop chances scale linearly as well. I doubt they will since everything is so closely tied to the AH/RMAH system, but one can hope.

As for the LoH topic, take a good look at the DH class as a whole right now. Nearly all of our LoH proc capability got gutted to hell and back in 1.0.3 and 1.0.4. Gloom is all we really have left for real healing, and if you're using a bowling ball spec or caltops spec (roofles @ caltrops now that it doesn't proc LoH), that discipline is a pretty precious resource, meaning you aren't going to be constantly healing with Gloom outside of Legacy Nat's (which really needs to be removed from the game so things aren't balanced around it anymore).

:)

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09/20/2012 06:04 AMPosted by Hawkeye
It seems everyone tends to forget how many times I'm at opposition with the development team. Honestly, I don't think they care.


Not everyone. Need to be a little careful there and making such a broad statement.

I don't always agree with your posts, but I've never based my opinion of them on the colour of the font they used.


Droth has a tendency to feed trolls sometimes. It's a failing I share to be honest... :|
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I actually like Droth's posts. I can understand them and they're well presented and thought out.

I have to /facepalm on the majority of the ignorant people here though.


+5$


Yes, how dare anybody enjoy reading Droth's posts. Let's all ignore him, and, instead of actually discussing the game, let's help out a gold spammer by spamming his gold buying advertisement even more just for the hell of it.

/snark
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Starbird,

Just so you know, I wasn't trying to argue with you, just point out that the bullet points you made are really tangential to this particular subject, which is the scaling of defensive abilities vs. incoming damage.

It will be interesting to see if the loot quality/drop chances scale linearly as well. I doubt they will since everything is so closely tied to the AH/RMAH system, but one can hope.

As for the LoH topic, take a good look at the DH class as a whole right now. Nearly all of our LoH proc capability got gutted to hell and back in 1.0.3 and 1.0.4. Gloom is all we really have left for real healing, and if you're using a bowling ball spec or caltops spec (roofles @ caltrops now that it doesn't proc LoH), that discipline is a pretty precious resource, meaning you aren't going to be constantly healing with Gloom outside of Legacy Nat's (which really needs to be removed from the game so things aren't balanced around it anymore).

:)


Ah, no stress :D !.

Yeah, DHs are in an odd position currently (I saw it coming the second they didn't nerf Legacy Nats. I was like "oh bugger, they really are going to balance us around that, aren't they?").

I wasn't so much disagreeing with Droth's post. I'm more trying to say that viewing defensive skills versus scaling is very isolated. Much like overall class power, you need to look at a whole lot of other factors when you discuss surviveability.
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09/20/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Starbird
Droth has a tendency to feed trolls sometimes. It's a failing I share to be honest... :|


I think this comic pretty well sums up why we sometimes have to keep the trolls alive:

http://darklegacycomics.com/157.html

;)

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So in order to correctly gauge how survivability is changing I am going to define a Monster Power Constant.

MPC = MDmg% * MLife%
*I"m using the percentages as whole numbers because we don't know the actual numbers.

Current MPC = 100 * 100 = 10,000
105 MPC = 75 * 100 = 7500
MP2 MPC = 82.5 * 110 = 9075
MP3 MPC = 90 * 120 = 9948
MP4 MPC = 97.5 * 130 = 12675

What does this mean for me?? Well as a DH that doesn't use gloom I should theoretically be able to farm MP3 and get 30% more MF >.< muahahaha (assuming again that the passive changes make up for the loss of ToC damage.)


You know, you are doing your math wrong, thats an exponential gain because you must improve the monster power through multiplying the base by the new level, NOT the previous level.
This is why you shouldn't do math, it is because you do not understand it.


I made an assumption the increments would be equal and not exponential. I'm guessing just like you are. My math isn't wrong. It's just a different assumption because that's all we have to work off of.
Edited by Bluebomber#1636 on 9/20/2012 6:16 AM PDT
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Droth,

I see your point in your first post. But, we have yet to see anything from Blizz regarding how will they fix the quality of the drop. At the moment, the progression using items you ACTUALLY found is near ZERO.

The way I see it is just another smokes and mirrors by forcing players to use AH in order to progress through each monster power level.

Do not forget everything in this game revolves around the AH.

Activision is willing to risk mass exodus of players for one of the most played game franchise in the gaming history but it will not risk a bad quarterly financial statement to the shareholders.


This particular sentiment is why we're eagerly awaiting release of the loot enhancement details, assuming they ever come. One thing is certain either way: Legendary/Set item drops will need to be increased several fold, or else the players will finally be so sick of never seeing a desired item drop that they just give up and move on.

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Yes, how dare anybody enjoy reading Droth's posts. Let's all ignore him, and, instead of actually discussing the game, let's help out a gold spammer by spamming his gold buying advertisement even more just for the hell of it.

/snark


Actually, his posts are not bad. He lays everything out in a clear concise manner. The problem is he's completely arrogant and definitely a troll a good percentage of the time.

I dont know why people are so focused on this monster level thing, tbh. It's not going to make the game any more fun. More difficulty and better drops, wow. They've already "improved" drop rates 4x on normal mobs and it didn't do much. Yeah, I get a few more crap legendaries now that I salvage for the brimstone because they dont sell for over 100k.

There are alot of issues with this game, but the main ones are that it's :

1) Boring
2) Items are bland and uninspired
3) Storyline was wrote by a 7 year old playing with G I Joe toys
4) Lack of endgame
5) Drop rates are too varied (some people get great stuff every day with less MF and less playtime than others with more MF and more playtime)

Monsters 10 isn't going to fix anything, uber bosses will be interesting, but once you've done it, it will become boring just like act III runs are now.

There needs to be about 500 more set items/legendaries with cool properties that are equippable at low level and still viable endgame to make this game worth playing.

Sure, every patch will bring alot of us back to see and have fun for a bit - but eventually they'll stop patching - It's like the population of this game is on life support and has been since release, which is not the sign of a healthy game.
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09/20/2012 06:20 AMPosted by Ekalavya
The problem is he's completely arrogant and definitely a troll a good percentage of the time.


How so?

I *really* don't get some of the ways 'Troll' is bandied about these days.
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Well, I don't know how you keep doing what you're doing Droth, but I respect you for it. I'd have given up a long time ago if I try to give explanations backed with equations and maths all the time only to be responded with "lolnoob" instead of giving more intellectual arguments.

Anyways, I'm sure there are people out there like me reading and just watching from the sides, so keep it up!
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well I just hope I can die again on 1.0.5 with monster power maxed
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There needs to be about 500 more set items/legendaries with cool properties that are equippable at low level and still viable endgame to make this game worth playing.


Unfortunately, due to Blizzard's use of the iLV 61-63 system, that can't realistically happen. At least not the "viable at endgame" part. Had Blizzard not used the single primary attribute coupled with scaling via weapon DPS system, they could have used a Legendary/Set system similar to D2's that would have provided far more satisfaction (especially on the journey to the "endgame"). Alas, they chose the current route and look how it's skewed the top end so badly that nothing but the "top end" works for anybody now.

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Edited by TheTias#1192 on 9/20/2012 6:30 AM PDT
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