Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

+1

A shame no blue has yet responded, nor does it seem that anyone cares to implement this in 1.07.

My 5 Cent: I feel that wothf does not proc as it should.

Attacking a group of 10-15 thrash mobs with the same gear, tested for about 2 weeks:

With WothF I get from 2 stacks of sweeping winds to 2 tornadoes out.
With FoT (and the other 2 main attacks) I get 2 stacks with the second part of my first attack alone and about 8-12 tornadoes out.

Way of the hundred Fists proc coefficient clearly seems to be broken, at least regarding sweeping wind main stacks and tornado procs.
Edited by Ferisam#2351 on 1/28/2013 5:52 AM PST
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Thanks for the support guys! :D

Sadly, no mechanics changes in 1.0.7 ... guess we will have to wait for 1.1 or the expansion for these kinds of changes.

+1

A shame no blue has yet responded, nor does it seem that anyone cares to implement this in 1.07.

My 5 Cent: I feel that wothf does not proc as it should.

Attacking a group of 10-15 thrash mobs with the same gear, tested for about 2 weeks:

With WothF I get from 2 stacks of sweeping winds to 2 tornadoes out.
With FoT (and the other 2 main attacks) I get 2 stacks with the second part of my first attack alone and about 8-12 tornadoes out.

Way of the hundred Fists proc coefficient clearly seems to be broken, at least regarding sweeping wind main stacks and tornado procs.

As far as I can tell, and I have done quite a bit of testing, WotHF procs exactly as it should.

However, as I have explained earlier in this thread, there is a VERY large difference in perception between a proc C of 0.63 and a proc C of 0.09 * 7.

Even though, on average, 0.09 *7 will result in 0.63 * CHC Cyclones over an extended period of testing, it has almost TWICE as large a chance to produce 0 Cyclones when compared to a single hit of 0.63 proc C.

It also has a chance to produce up to 7 Cyclones at once (extremely unlikely) but, due to the way our brains are hard-wired, this is rarely factored in correctly, relative to the increased chance to produce 0.

Conclusion: I do not think WotHF's proc C is currently broke. I think that there are some very specific cognitive reasons that it FEELS broken.

Note: WotHF has a MUCH lower Proc C (average) than FoT:TC. When comparing the two, you will generally find that Thunderclap WAAAAAAAAAAY out performs WotHF.
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01/28/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Druin
Note: WotHF has a MUCH lower Proc C (average) than FoT:TC. When comparing the two, you will generally find that Thunderclap WAAAAAAAAAAY out performs WotHF.

I do believe this is situational. There is no doubt about the synergies FoT/TC has with SW/Cyclone - this is a match made in heaven. The moment I take SW/Cyclone comes off my bar, so too does FoT/TC and I find something else to use.

I believe that WoTHF has its uses and synergies with other skills the way that it stands right now -- Raahl's infinite spirit regen synergy being one big reason why I think that inner workings of this skill (and some runes) should not be changed, IMO. At the same time, I don't think we're talking about the same thing here, as I'm not necessarily addressing the poor proc rate on this skill, but about the overall mechanics of the skill.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/28/2013 9:46 AM PST
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I do believe this is situational. There is no doubt about the synergies FoT/TC has with SW/Cyclone - this is a match made in heaven. The moment I take SW/Cyclone comes off my bar, so too does FoT/TC and I find something else to use.

I believe that WoTHF has its uses and synergies with other skills the way that it stands right now -- Raahl's infinite spirit regen synergy being one big reason why I think that inner workings of this skill (and some runes) should not be changed, IMO. At the same time, I don't think we're talking about the same thing here, as I'm not necessarily addressing the poor proc rate on this skill, but about the overall mechanics of the skill.

Hey Nameless,

I may have been unclear.

I do not think that WotHF under-performs to Thunderclap in a strict-sense. Simply in a Cyclone Proccing contest, nothing even comes close to TC.

I actually like WotHF a lot more now that I stopped using SW:C for most of my builds, but I stand by my recommendations.

I think that it is too slow and cumbersome of a skill with too poor of a teleport on FoF to be a viable replacement to Thunderclap in all but the most off-shoot situations.

The infinite spirit gen situation is a very cool one and something that is worth looking into.

As I stated in the beginning of this thread, I realllllly don't want to mess with other people's builds so if my FoF change (which I REALLY like) would cause this interaction, we can totally discuss perhaps keeping the DoT component or moving it to another skill that would make more sense, thematically.

Talk me through it! :D
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I think I love WotHF because it FEELS fast, even though it really isn't. I also think it works better for DW monks, again, to emphasize the feeling of hitting faster.

In regards to your suggestion, I would much prefer if the DoT component was not removed from FoF, because it actually helps spirit regen in very specific scenarios. In terms of the teleport function... I need to fiddle with it again, but I'm not sure if it needs to be on all runes. Because of the AOE effect of the skill, I think that it may still be possible to hit monsters after a knockback but not have to be up close an personal in order for the strikes to connect. In other words, the medium range allows for more strikes against enemies from a bit more of a distance, and could keep you out of harm's way for ground effects and attacks from melee monsters. I've also seen WotHF connect with monsters at distances I'm not used to (since FoT is a very short-range skill).

IMO, WotHF needs to be treated as a skill that is distinct from FoT. On the surface, it may seem to be duplicating effects, but in my view, they probably run somewhat parallel, but differ in some other (useful) ways.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 1/31/2013 9:40 PM PST
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Always loved this thread. My 2c about how I would take your changes further I love the thought you put into each rune.

My 2c about how I might change the Spirit generators (Either separately or in addition to changes like yours):

WotHF: Cut danage. Possibly in half or further. Increase the proc rate on the second strike. I'm talking to 0.3 to 0.5.

FoT: Give every thing the teleport. Cool effects happen on the first strike. Cut proc coefficient of Thunder clap rune, if not others.

CW: Have effects that stack or build with very low debuff timers.

DR: more buffs on the 3rd strike. Make them last longer than KE, but maybe not as long as Foresight.

The idea is that each generator is better on a different strike, and each is best at something. WotHF procs like crazy, but doesn't hit hard. DR buffs you. CW debuffs. FoT generates spirit fast and offers mobility. Probably still does the most damage.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 1/28/2013 5:49 PM PST
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Amazing thread, Druin. Thanks for all of your hard work! Hopefully the blues are taking notes!
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Lots of work, but for WHAT. You dont explain WHY for absolutely nothing.

Random changes wont do a damn.

Proposed change : Nerf thunderclap. Buff combination strike. THAT'S IT.

You can not just BUFF everything just because one(!) rune for one(!) skill is better than everything else (FOR YOUR build, remember that! I dont see why would i use thunderclap for LTK/BELLS/anything with a spender)

Will you people stop! trying to make monk OP, instead of FUN?
Edited by Shuun#2118 on 1/29/2013 7:12 AM PST
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Lots of work, but for WHAT. You dont explain WHY for absolutely nothing.

Random changes wont do a damn.

Proposed change : Nerf thunderclap. Buff combination strike. THAT'S IT.

You can not just BUFF everything just because one(!) rune for one(!) skill is better than everything else (FOR YOUR build, remember that! I dont see why would i use thunderclap for LTK/BELLS/anything with a spender)

Will you people stop! trying to make monk OP, instead of FUN?

Eh. Actually the best way to balance IS to buff stuff, not nerf stuff.

Btw, if you weren't posting on a troll account you might be taken at least somewhat seriously.
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01/29/2013 08:10 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
Btw, if you weren't posting on a troll account you might be taken at least somewhat seriously.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Shuun-2118/hero/289189

Dude seems to be full of rage this morning, throwing out rage post after rage post. Dunno what's up with that...

¯\(°_o)/¯
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So much work, so many good ideas.. And still no blue responding to this or taking it into account for "the big monk patch 107".

Sure, "we will do more than simply adjusting numbers" - haha.
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Howdy Druin.

I've recently been working with a new monk character since 1.07 hit. Is all of your work in this post still completely true after those 1.07 adjustments?

Good read regardless, thanks.
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This is still probably the best reference out there for the various spirit generators. I'm giving it a bump since Gosu (who I see has a deleted post on this very page) referenced it in his thread which is all the rage on the General Forum.

Gosu's thread, in case anyone missed it.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170
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Sadly when one skill seems to really shine, blizzards solution is to NERF in half or there about...I sincerely hope they leave FoT the way it is...I would like to see some buffs to CW and WothF...DR for most parts is OK.
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03/02/2013 12:43 PMPosted by Supes
Sadly when one skill seems to really shine, blizzards solution is to NERF in half or there about...I


but there is some reason into it..

FoT:TC has:
- teleport
- very high proc
- highest haste modifier
- lightning element == synergy with WKL that no other main skill has..
- aoe (albeit small)
- no drawbacks

this is too much. removing one or two from this list would STILL keep TC as a VERY good skill.

proposed nerfs:

1) remove aoe. make it single target only, no hidden aoe, no small aoe - single target only

or

2) change element from lightning to holy

or

3) reduce proc by half. harsh? yep. would kill this skill? hell no!

optionally add teleport cooldown OR

4) reduce spirit generated from 6 to ZERO keeping all bonuses unmodified. that teleport is already worth 10 spirit min (dashing strike..)

1 or 2 or 3 would put ALL other spirit gens in the same league. sometimes nerf is the only way.

some lackluster spirit gens need change(buff) too :/
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I'm sorry, how is nerfing something without IMPROVING the others a good thing? That's the same analogy that blizzard used when they nerfed the Monk's class passives...STI and Resolve nerfs...yet again STI is still one of the most used skills after the nerf...b/c blizzard approached the situation the same way you are...you are not improving the other skills to be on PAR with FoT which is the heart of the issue, not that FoT is so freaking good.
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issue has two faces - TC is TOO good, some other generators are TOO bad. this isnt choice between equal options it is rather choosing the second best.

TC is too good. it has too many perks in one package. it has absolutely ZERO drawbacks! it would be even good as a skill with 6 spirit COST not gain.

with the obvious and understandable quest for more POWAH players tend to stick to the most powerful option and deny each and every sign that the option they;ve chosen is simply overpowered and is the core of other problems

TC is too good. nerfing it will happen. some other generators need the buff too (or fixing as some seem to be simply broken)

monk will be sorted our ONLY after both of these steps are taken

and if you are at it - spamming mantras sux. this is something that simply is stupid as hell. people do not complain because it is so powerful, but if it wasnt - it would have been ridiculed all day long..
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Druin, of the FoT runes does the spirit on crit one create the most spirit? Or does TC somehow magically create more spirit due to the AoE effect? I was unclear in your post. thx

Edit: better yet can you simply rank the best pure spirit generating runes top down? I'm working on a stun kick build and tons of spirit is the priority over damage or SW proc. thx again!
Edited by Zuggles#1174 on 3/2/2013 10:21 PM PST
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I posted about the !@#$ty dash on FoF: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8196650887

I hope it gets adjusted, because if the dash worked more like Dashing Strike (even if it's just a much shorter range), I would have no problems switching to this from Tclap.
Edited by Kylezo#1560 on 3/13/2013 7:52 PM PDT
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