Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

Well it might not stack up efficiency wise but when you're fighting plague or molten mobs that range on deadly reach is awesome!
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09/28/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Neon
Well it might not stack up efficiency wise but when you're fighting plague or molten mobs that range on deadly reach is awesome!


No doubt!

I really don't want to tell people how to play or that other spirit gens CAN'T be used. That is 100% not my intention.

That is also why I tried REALLY hard to come up with changes that wouldn't negatively effect people who are already having fun with a non-FoT:TC build.

My only goal is to promote buffs for other spirit gens to the point where people choose them because they are BETTER in a build/playstyle and farming efficiency actually goes UP when using them.

I would never want to disparage someone having fun!
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There are some great ideas in here.
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Interesting posts about WotHF on p. 2

I've only tried blazing fists and fists of fury personally (check profile for build/gear), and I prefer fists of fury due to higher proc rates. The added dot damage seems negligible. At 100K dps, I actually don't see much of a difference in kill speed in contrast with FoT:C. The only drawback is the big variability in dps; I sometimes find I'm hitting for <50K for a few seconds consecutively (which lengthens battles), and at others, I'm doing 300K+ crits.

I'll have to try hands of lightning tonight (never even considered using this before; but I'll try it out to see if it's more effective than FoF in terms of scaling/raw damage), but at a high level, it's hard to get away from the double proc rate on FoF and the added teleport dash.
Edited by Chaos#11389 on 9/28/2012 12:40 PM PDT
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I find it strange more people don't grasp onto WotHF-Blazing Fists going above the movement-cap.

When Fleet Footed was announced as being buffed (Blazing Fist was "ninja-buffed"), hardly anyone was excited. Then a couple weeks later EVERYONE who was concerned with farming efficiency and some others used it.

So using Fleet Footed as a passive for 10% and NOT using WotHF-Blazing Fist over FoT-Thunderclap because of a slight decrease in attack-speed/procs/single-target-damage (WotHF is better AoE than FoT) is logical... HUH?!

To each their own, but WotHF-Blazing Fists definetly increased my farming efficiency before I started testing for 1.05.
Edited by blhotz#1823 on 9/28/2012 1:41 PM PDT
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I find it strange more people don't grasp onto WotHF-Blazing Fists going above the movement-cap.

When Fleet Footed was announced as being buffed (Blazing Fist was "ninja-buffed"), hardly anyone was excited. Then a couple weeks later EVERYONE who was concerned with farming efficiency and some others used it.

So using Fleet Footed as a passive for 10% and NOT using WotHF-Blazing Fist over FoT-Thunderclap because of a slight decrease in attack-speed/procs/single-target-damage (WotHF is better AoE than FoT) is logical... HUH?!

To each their own, but WotHF-Blazing Fists definetly increased my farming efficiency before I started testing for 1.05.


Fleet footed is nice because it is always active. Keeping the Blazing Fists bufff up 24/7 is extremely difficult.

Furthermore, you lose DPS and thus farming efficiency with Blazing Fists which, numbers wise, counteracts the increase in movement speed.

The teleport on FoT:TC is also invaluable for its utility and added ability to stick to running mobs.

If the buff lasted for longer and could be reasonably kept up more it might be competitive but FoT:TC has SO much going for it, they don't really compare well at this time.

Edit: This is why my proposed change is to increase the buff timer so that you would get more actual run-time out of the run-speed buff and you could conceptually have a better chance of keeping the buff up 24/7.

Note: I have done many many timed runs and calculated xp/hour over a long period of time. Blazing Fists just doesn't provide the same level of farming efficiency as Thunderclap.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 9/28/2012 2:16 PM PDT
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As a budget player (no RMAH and ~10 hrs a week on average), the draw to FoT:TC comes from 2 primary traits:
  • Proc coefficient
  • -This is a key component to survivability for my monk. As a monk with <200% CHD, LoH is critical in keeping me alive. FoT:TC's proc coefficients (with the double hits) vastly out perform the other generators in this aspect. The only one that comes even close is WotHF:FoF, but is largely out-classed by the next point. All other generators simply do not return enough health to negate incoming damage. A few weeks ago, with ~1300 LoH, I switched to FoF, and wasn't able to maintain my health in the same manner against trash creeps, not to mention elites.
  • Attack speed
  • -Synergistic with the first point and a huge boost to DPS, the bonus attack speed out-classes the other generators. CHC and LoH are best with high attack speed, and with WotHF's fail at proc'ing, FoT is the prime choice, with an attack speed modifier of ~1.4 (quite a big difference from the others {I couldn't find the source post})

    I really want to use WotHF:BF (D3 equivalent of zeal, anybody???) but survivability and efficiency is just too low without high end, specific equipment for viability.

    I could deal with sub-optimum damage and even slower attack if my life return was sufficient or on par with FoT:TC.

    1c. Static Charge
    Effect: Every hit your "Primary" (read: non-aoe) target gets a 5s debuff. Every time you attack, any enemies with this debuff take 37% weapon damage as lightning.
    Explanation: This skill rewards switching targets frequently. The proc-coefficient is fairly low but can be made up for by lots and lots of static-debuffing.
    Proposed Change: Debuff duration to 30seconds
    This is a SUPER hard skill to balance because I have never been able to use it or seen it used effectively.
    I believe the added teleport from FoT combine with a long long debuff timer would allow a completely new style of play (the hit an run).
    It would still suffer from super low AoE:dps and low LoH (at first) compared to Thunderclap.
    If the proc co-efficient on static-charges was set correctly (I do not know the correct #) it should eventually overtake Thunderclap in efficiency if you got enough charges going.


    The increased duration is a fantastic idea, the super low time is a huge turn off for me, and impossible to manage more than a couple individual charges per group rendering it useless. To boost this to be more than just enough to not be terrible, the charges should act as an AOE node. On subsequent attacks, the debuff not only does 37% damage to the charged enemy, the charge explodes in a static burst for small AOE damage of range 6-10 yards to all enemies within that area for the 37%. Maybe tune the damage to balance, but 37% seems appropriate to me. This would mean that when you initiate combat with a new group you can attack a few of them directly and then concentrate on particular creeps for a while, to have continual AOE damage that isn't too powerful but is worth-while. I understand this could get overpowered quick, but as most groups number in the ranges of 3-5, the opportunities shouldn't arise too often.

    I love most of the suggestions, especially the addition of the teleport and dash utilities to the basic skill instead of being rune specific.

    After reading through, I am now really anticipating trying out a CW/CS build and the FoT:quickening based build Strikerdude posted. They both seem much more interesting than the cookie cutter build that is oh-so efficient.

    Here's to monk buffs and Blizzard actually implementing some of these. Fantastic post.
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    Love these changes. Support these changes. Plugged you in the 'REQUEST FOR RESPONSE ON STATE OF MONKS..' thread here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794319883?page=45
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    Thanks for doing that. I wouldn't have seen this amazing post otherwise! Based on blue responses I don't think monks will see a change for quite some time, but I noted the blue did respond that he/she would look at this thread, so there's still hope for the future of the class.

    The suggestions by "Druin" and testing by "Strikerdude" are AMAZING!!! Thanks fellas. I always like to see people use their critical thinking skills and stay away from all the childish insults while having an adult debate. Props, you guys are a credit to the gaming community.

    In case I wasn't clear enough thanks to Druin for the OP and thanks to Strikerdude for the testing.
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    I didn't read it but I want to pat you on the back for the effort. From a couple of comments, it sounds like you did a good job. The best job you did was get a blue to actually check this out. I really hope this works out for monks because I find it completely unfair that my barbie is the only class that can do anything viably.
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    10/05/2012 11:28 AMPosted by Mogram
    Love these changes. Support these changes. Plugged you in the 'REQUEST FOR RESPONSE ON STATE OF MONKS..' thread here:


    Mogram, thank you so much.

    I put a lot of time and effort into this post and I was pretty sad about the lack of exposure it got.

    You have made this little monk's day buddy!

    <3

    -Druin, the happy monk
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    kudos on how much work you put into this
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    Posts: 111
    That's right, I almost forgot to post the actual graphs from my testing!

    Note: I said in some previous posts that Fists of Fury deals only 72% of the single-target damage of FoT/TC. This was a mistake on my part. I accidentally disabled the DoT component on one of the tests, so the number came out lower than expected. Fists of Fury actually does 80% of FoT/TC's single-target damage. I have updated my previous posts to reflect this.

    But! Fists of Fury still deals the lowest single-target damage of any WotHF rune (Hands of Lightning and Blazing Fists both deal 82%). Also, Fists of Fury still suffers from poor damage scaling due to its reliance on DoT. You will see this in the graphs.


    DAMAGE SCALING SIMULATION TESTS
    So here are the graphs and the simulation test parameters. The four skills under comparison for this test are:

    - Fists of Thunder / Thunderclap
    - Way of the Hundred Fists / Hands of Lightning
    - Way of the Hundred Fists / Blazing Fists
    - Way of the Hundred Fists / Fists of Fury

    All damage numbers shown are relative to FoT/TC's single-target damage. Please note that is only a comparison of the single-target damage of each skill/rune, and does not compare any other factors, such as AOE damage, effects, etc. Balancing skills is more than just the raw single-target damage they do, so take this comparison as evidence of imbalance, not the end-all-be-all proof of imbalance.

    Weapon Speed Scaling:
    http://i.imgur.com/6lYUR.png
    - Attack Speed Bonus = +0.0%
    - Critical Hit Chance = 5.0%
    - Critical Hit Damage = 50.0%
    - Battle Time = 1000000 seconds
    - Simulation Runs = 1


    Hands of Lightning and Blazing Fists can both keep up with FoT/TC when weapon speeds increase. Fists of Fury is the clear loser in this test.

    Attack Speed Scaling:
    http://i.imgur.com/ozQRe.png
    - Weapon Speed = 1.00
    - Critical Hit Chance = 5.0%
    - Critical Hit Damage = 50.0%
    - Battle Time = 1000000 seconds
    - Simulation Runs = 1


    The uptrend in all three WotHF runes shows that WotHF, in general, scales better with attack speed than FoT/TC. Hands of Lightning, with its additional hits on the second strike, scales much better than Blazing Fists and Fists of Fury.

    Critical Hit Chance Scaling:
    http://i.imgur.com/wAEha.png
    - Weapon Speed = 1.00
    - Attack Speed Bonus = +0.0%
    - Critical Hit Damage = 50.0%
    - Battle Time = 1000000 seconds
    - Simulation Runs = 1


    Hands of Lightning and Blazing Fists perfectly maintain their scaling with FoT/TC. Only Fists of Fury shows a decline.

    Critical Hit Damage Scaling:
    http://i.imgur.com/4qVUV.png
    - Weapon Speed = 1.00
    - Attack Speed Bonus = +0.0%
    - Critical Hit Chance = 5.0%
    - Battle Time = 1000000 seconds
    - Simulation Runs = 1


    Not surprisingly, the results of this test show the same pattern as the Critical Hit Chance Scaling test. Again, Fists of Fury just can't keep up with the other runes in terms of scaling.

    CONCLUSION
    Hands of Lightning is clearly the best rune in terms of damage. If a Monk has no need for any of the special effects of the other runes, then this is the best damage choice.

    Also, Fists of Fury is clearly the worst rune in terms of damage. Not only does Fists of Fury start out with the lowest single-target damage, but it also shows poor damage scaling as gear improves over time. So is the teleport and DoT effect worth the significantly lower damage output? Many would argue "no." This is why I believe that the DoT mechanic should be removed from Fists of Fury and replaced with a flat increase to weapon damage. Fists of Fury is supposed to be the big damage rune, but it simply fails to deliver right now.

    For anyone interested in how to improve WotHF to be more competitive with FoT/TC, please see my posts on Page 2 here:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6607333164?page=2
    Edited by strikerdude#1306 on 10/5/2012 2:41 PM PDT
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    great original post!
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    Striker that is AWESOME info, mind if I stealz your graphs for some tasteful additions to my original post? :D
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    Posts: 111
    10/05/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Druin
    Striker that is AWESOME info, mind if I stealz your graphs for some tasteful additions to my original post? :D


    Druin, go ahead and use them. That's what they're there for. :)
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    Okay! Updates:
    1. Added recommendation and math for FoT:Bounding Light
    2. Added an Appendix Section
    3. Added an appendix for the MATH behind my Bounding Light recommendation vs Thunderclap
    4. Added an appendix for Strikerdude's graphs and analysis
    5. Added a Thank You section .. thanks guys!
    6. Added a Table of Contents to the initial post due to size
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    Spirit Salvo could add a debuff to the mob that has a chance to give you spirit. In games with 4+ people you could be nearly full on spirit all the time in boss fights.

    Alternatively it could give you bonus spirit on critical hit and have a much much much smaller chance to reduce your cooldowns by 1 second.
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    Spirit Salvo could add a debuff to the mob that has a chance to give you spirit. In games with 4+ people you could be nearly full on spirit all the time in boss fights.

    Alternatively it could give you bonus spirit on critical hit and have a much much much smaller chance to reduce your cooldowns by 1 second.


    Can you explain the first one? How would a 4 player game use this debuff to give you more spirit?

    The second idea is interesting ... I have thought about how cool it would be to have faster CD's but I think the CM wizz currently proves that that is REALLY hard to balance :P
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    Extra Bump for the awesomeness of this post. Things i really liked and SHOULD be at least seriously considered by Dev team. FOT:tc is the BEST skill hands down, its fun (teleport) does great aoe, and the LOH/LS part of it is perfect. skills have to be brought to this baseline to be useful. Add the teleport on all FOT runes, add the dash to all WofHF. These can be the movement speed spirit generaters, while mange is the control/defense, and deadly reach is the kite/defense
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