Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

- Diablo III (Monk)
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10/05/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Minami
Extra Bump for the awesomeness of this post. Things i really liked and SHOULD be at least seriously considered by Dev team. FOT:tc is the BEST skill hands down, its fun (teleport) does great aoe, and the LOH/LS part of it is perfect. skills have to be brought to this baseline to be useful. Add the teleport on all FOT runes, add the dash to all WofHF. These can be the movement speed spirit generaters, while mange is the control/defense, and deadly reach is the kite/defense


Your breakdown of what the 4 different gens should do is exactly what I had in mind with my changes! :D
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Nice job with all that info. I still have to absorb it.

Just wanted to comment about your claim of thunderclap being the best. I don't like the auto teleport. Mainly because it puts me directly in pools of poison and fire of whoever I teleported to. And I can see the 'top monks in the world' being cool with that because they also have the top gear in the world and not phased by the elements. Yes its fun to teleport around, zipping around, and all that. I love that too, but I get that from dashing strike, which is a must have for me. I use the static charge rune for FoT and extremely satisfied with it because it allows me to control my position to be just outside the edge of poison and fire puddles. It also has a great proc multiplier per target charged. Maybe I'll keep that last part to myself from now on. For my playing style, all of that makes a huge difference in survivability. It also feels more fun to me when I have more control over mobility.
Edited by grabowski#1285 on 10/5/2012 5:54 PM PDT
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+1
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90 Undead Warlock
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From OP's opening statement:
"Furthermore, in an ARPG, fluidity and speed of combat = fun. FoT:TC's teleport currently adds this element to a class severely lacking in "fun."
Adding the Teleport function to all FoT runes will allow them to compete on their merits and not on their lack of basic monk-utility."

This x 100.

Comparing Wizard to Monk, I personally feel the Wiz skill set and passive choices simply represent a much more enjoyable gaming experience. Meteor vs WoL. Hydra vs Ally. Critical mass vs Chant of resonance. The skills that the Monk has needs not just be adjusted to create more viable builds, the Monk skills need a FUN injection.

Charm, stun, fear, blind, bleed, freeze. Why aren't these available procs littered through the rune enhancements? SSS is a Win skill. BoH:BW is a Win skill. This is the level of enjoyment ALL the Monk skills need to be lifted to; even if their effectiveness remained at the current imbalanced states, they would still be engaging at least. Lethal Decoy is the perfect candidate. So much potential: rarely going to use it.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Nice job with all that info. I still have to absorb it.

Just wanted to comment about your claim of thunderclap being the best. I don't like the auto teleport. Mainly because it puts me directly in pools of poison and fire of whoever I teleported to. And I can see the 'top monks in the world' being cool with that because they also have the top gear in the world and not phased by the elements. Yes its fun to teleport around, zipping around, and all that. I love that too, but I get that from dashing strike, which is a must have for me. I use the static charge rune for FoT and extremely satisfied with it because it allows me to control my position to be just outside the edge of poison and fire puddles. It also has a great proc multiplier per target charged. Maybe I'll keep that last part to myself from now on. For my playing style, all of that makes a huge difference in survivability. It also feels more fun to me when I have more control over mobility.


I totally hear ya bud.

I am by no means saying that FoT:TC is the best rune in terms of enjoyment of your gaming experience. That is a 100% subjective thing.

FoT:TC just has the best Math and that leads a lot of us min/maxers down the path of "1 spec to rule them all"

I really can't see a way around the current FoT problem without adding the teleport to all the runes though which would sorta mess up your non-teleporting static charge fun :(

My guess would be that using DR:xxxx would end up being better dps / spirit gen / proc change than your current FoT:Static Charge but it still wouldn't FEEL the same ... I get that.

I will think on it.
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Excellent post with some excellent suggestions (I read it all)!

As for WotHF:Spirited Salvo, I was thinking earlier about a rune variant that could give us monks a new playstyle, more focused on actual "combos". The basic idea is:

After the third strike, your next Finisher* has its Spirit cost reduced by 50% for 2 seconds.

* Finishers are: Lashing Tail Kick, Wave of Light, Seven Sided Strike, Tempest Rush, Cyclone Strike (?) (and maybe also Exploding Palm, although it doesn't really fit the theme).


It could also work by giving you a % chance to trigger this effect on every strike instead of adding a 100% chance to third hit. The 2 seconds should make it fairly straightforward to use, but less could also work, forcing the player to be constantly prepared to use his Finisher at the right time.

This basically gives you "free" Spirit that you can use only for a short time to fuel your offensive abilities and not for super-boring MoC spam.

Thinking about resource-oriented runes in general, I think a few more options could be explored to individualize the skills even more. For example, instead of a static X Spirit on Crit, a rune could generate Y% of your maximum Spirit on Crit, with the numbers balanced in such a way, that the "X" is slightly better for your basic 150 Spirit monk, but "Y%" is slightly better if you use Exalted Soul ("slightly" is crucial here, as we want to increase build diversity, not funnel people into assuming that "Exalted Sould = Y% skill").

Yet another way to diversify resource-oriented runes would be to add a rune that, instead of depending on Crit, would simply increase the amount generated by every hit, giving the player an option to have a more reliable flow of Spirit, as well as adding a new layer of gear-build relationship.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Excellent post with some excellent suggestions (I read it all)!

As for WotHF:Spirited Salvo, I was thinking earlier about a rune variant that could give us monks a new playstyle, more focused on actual "combos". The basic idea is:

After the third strike, your next Finisher* has its Spirit cost reduced by 50% for 2 seconds.

* Finishers are: Lashing Tail Kick, Wave of Light, Seven Sided Strike, Tempest Rush, Cyclone Strike (?) (and maybe also Exploding Palm, although it doesn't really fit the theme).


It could also work by giving you a % chance to trigger this effect on every strike instead of adding a 100% chance to third hit. The 2 seconds should make it fairly straightforward to use, but less could also work, forcing the player to be constantly prepared to use his Finisher at the right time.

This basically gives you "free" Spirit that you can use only for a short time to fuel your offensive abilities and not for super-boring MoC spam.

Thinking about resource-oriented runes in general, I think a few more options could be explored to individualize the skills even more. For example, instead of a static X Spirit on Crit, a rune could generate Y% of your maximum Spirit on Crit, with the numbers balanced in such a way, that the "X" is slightly better for your basic 150 Spirit monk, but "Y%" is slightly better if you use Exalted Soul ("slightly" is crucial here, as we want to increase build diversity, not funnel people into assuming that "Exalted Sould = Y% skill").

Yet another way to diversify resource-oriented runes would be to add a rune that, instead of depending on Crit, would simply increase the amount generated by every hit, giving the player an option to have a more reliable flow of Spirit, as well as adding a new layer of gear-build relationship.


I LOVE all of your ideas.

100% stealing the Spirited Salvo one and I will think hard on the other suggestions ... they are all really good.
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Nice job with all that info. I still have to absorb it.

Just wanted to comment about your claim of thunderclap being the best. I don't like the auto teleport. Mainly because it puts me directly in pools of poison and fire of whoever I teleported to. And I can see the 'top monks in the world' being cool with that because they also have the top gear in the world and not phased by the elements. Yes its fun to teleport around, zipping around, and all that. I love that too, but I get that from dashing strike, which is a must have for me. I use the static charge rune for FoT and extremely satisfied with it because it allows me to control my position to be just outside the edge of poison and fire puddles. It also has a great proc multiplier per target charged. Maybe I'll keep that last part to myself from now on. For my playing style, all of that makes a huge difference in survivability. It also feels more fun to me when I have more control over mobility.


They could implement a rune with the same idea but in reverse. If they give teleport to baseline, one rune could remove the teleport for +extra whatever (maybe the dodge rune). Although for me, if i teleport onto a pool of whatever, i just move a little bit, you dont actually teleport to a mob if your close enough. And as far as survivability, using the teleport to skip down a line of mobs when they are packed together to get away from chains etc, has saved me a ton
Edited by Minami#1237 on 10/6/2012 9:53 AM PDT
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Posts: 92
Excellent post with some excellent suggestions (I read it all)!

As for WotHF:Spirited Salvo, I was thinking earlier about a rune variant that could give us monks a new playstyle, more focused on actual "combos". The basic idea is:

After the third strike, your next Finisher* has its Spirit cost reduced by 50% for 2 seconds.

* Finishers are: Lashing Tail Kick, Wave of Light, Seven Sided Strike, Tempest Rush, Cyclone Strike (?) (and maybe also Exploding Palm, although it doesn't really fit the theme).


It could also work by giving you a % chance to trigger this effect on every strike instead of adding a 100% chance to third hit. The 2 seconds should make it fairly straightforward to use, but less could also work, forcing the player to be constantly prepared to use his Finisher at the right time.

This basically gives you "free" Spirit that you can use only for a short time to fuel your offensive abilities and not for super-boring MoC spam.

Thinking about resource-oriented runes in general, I think a few more options could be explored to individualize the skills even more. For example, instead of a static X Spirit on Crit, a rune could generate Y% of your maximum Spirit on Crit, with the numbers balanced in such a way, that the "X" is slightly better for your basic 150 Spirit monk, but "Y%" is slightly better if you use Exalted Soul ("slightly" is crucial here, as we want to increase build diversity, not funnel people into assuming that "Exalted Sould = Y% skill").

Yet another way to diversify resource-oriented runes would be to add a rune that, instead of depending on Crit, would simply increase the amount generated by every hit, giving the player an option to have a more reliable flow of Spirit, as well as adding a new layer of gear-build relationship.


I don't know... I like the ideas, but I don't think they belong with the Spirit generators. I believe that the Spirit generators should be made more simple, and the other skills should be made more complex. Ideally, each Spirit generator should do only one thing really well to increase the player's choices for skill synergy. Also, the player's big decision making should be based more on their other active skills rather than on the Spirit generator itself.

---

The current problem is that FoT/TC does multiple things really well (and in some cases, is the best at what it does), so even if all the other Spirit generators got significant buffs, it would still be hard for players to pass up FoT/TC. The other Spirit generators need other support skills to either complement their abilities or negate their weaknesses, while FoT/TC is both versatile and effective enough to handle several scenarios by itself. In terms of game design, FoT/TC would be considered an overpowered skill.

So why isn't FoT/TC considered overpowered by the community? That's because FoT/TC is used more as a support skill to proc Sweeping Wind / Cyclone, Life on Hit and Life Steal. No one makes a build around FoT/TC because its support skills, with the exception of Resolve, are still too weak (Way of the Hundred Fists / Blazing Wrath, Lashing Tail Kick, Wave of Light, Breath of Heaven / Penitent Flame, Mantra of Retribution / Transgression, Combination Strike).

So here's my controversial statement of the day: Buff Thunderclap's weapon damage to 125%, but nerf Thunderclap's AOE damage to 10% weapon damage. This change will give Thunderclap a more clearly defined role as a single-target damage and Effect type rune with teleport and high proc abilities. Then buff Thunderclap's support skills to make the teleport more of an asset rather than focusing on proccing Sweeping Wind / Cyclone, Life on Hit and Life Steal all day long. While we're at it, we should buff other Monk skills to benefit from procs so that it isn't just SW/Cyclone + LoH + LS. This is what will give players more choices. This is what will promote build diversity. This is what needs to happen.
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My biggest issue with Monk always came down to how it was changed pretty much drastically just around the open Beta; if memory serves.

I could never figure out why the description didn't really match the gameplay. The way Monk was described in the game, on this site, etc. seemed completely different from the game's actual play. In the descriptions, it sounded all the world like it was a different style of melee, a more planned attack, in a sense. Sort of like how Guild Wars worked it's Lead, Off-Hand, Dual Attack skills into the way the Assassin profession worked. That sort of pre-planning (not hard, chess tournament thinking; but on the fly, instinctive thinking) prior to a fight.

In practice I basically felt no different from a Barbarian. It was basically run up, attack it, use *insert skill here*. While that can pretty much be used to describe everything, lol, what I'm getting at is that there was none of the weaving of combinations and attacks into the mix. Moving from one skill, into another, into another, changing as the situation arises and reacting accordingly.

With the Barbarian, I feel exactly like I should. Large, tough, dominating with sheer presence and martial strength. I run in, I crush whatever stands in my way by taking whatever is in my hands and pushing it through its face. The skills compliment that.

With the Monk, I feel pretty much no different from the Barbarian, except that it doesn't fit the character. I run up, I punch things, and use some skills to survive. The end result is that there is none of that weaving of attacks or fluidity.

So I went 'searching for answers' in a sense and discovered that, prior to the Open Beta, Monk operated drastically different. There WAS an actual combo system in place and what have you, but it was changed to bring it's play style more to the level of, well, Barbarian. The issue was that the description was never altered to fit that and some of the Spirit Gen skills still operated loosely to the old idea, but are nothing more than 1, 2, 3.

That change, I think, is what really put Monk in the position its in, when it comes to skills. It was designed with the idea of being its own identity, but brought down and, essentially, homogenized to keep it as simply to pick up and play as Barbarian. Monk is basically suffering from an identity crisis.

On a side note, it explains why Combination Strikes feels so oddly out of place. Needing to use multiple spirit generators to pull off a slight increase in attack power with such a short duration? In the old system Monk had, it fit perfectly. As it stands now, it looks completely worthless, at worst, and unmanageable at best.

Simply my thoughts on it.
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This is an excellent thread with a good analysis on the primary attacks.

One point that I think is important to consider when making suggestions for how to improve the primary attacks is the hidden attack speed modifier for each attack. Accounting for the modifier will help to create a more accurate idea of which attacks are better in certain situations and will help guide suggestions for skill changes. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate a good comprehensive list of these attack speed modifiers, but here's a couple:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4427706988
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5568806336

On a related note, I'm hoping to do a write up that explains why dodge is such a shoddy mechanic from a mathematical perspective, and to provide suggestions on how to make dodge comparable to resists and armor (it isn't just a straightforward 'make dodge work on everything'). If it's well received, perhaps these threads could be cross-referenced in order to make a comprehensive network of suggested improvements for monks.
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A friend of mine mentioned (keep in mind he was simply throwing out suggestions) that Monk could have some form of 'Glancing Hit' mechanic when Dodge fails. A second chance at damage reduction before a full hit is scored.

I've always felt like any % (or RNG) Dodge mechanic has always been rough seas and rarely done in a way that either didn't come away broken, stacking to the point where any other form of damage reduction was pointless, or suffering from flaws that rendered it completely useless next to all other damage reduction.

I don't actually think I've ever seen a Dodge Chance mechanic in any game of this style where it actually felt like it fit right.
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When I was leveling up my monk, I mapped FoT with TC on the right mouse button, and held it down for about half an hour at a time, teleporting and running around and killing stuff while eating my lunch with the other hand. Sometimes I didn't even look at the screen because I would either be running or fighting things and there wasn't really much to pay attention to.

Is this as "fun" as you want to make all the other skills? I don't disagree that it's effective, but it's certainly not that fun. The "fun" part about it was that I could run and teleport faster through repeated content in nightmare and hell (until it just got too boring to continue).
Edited by LegoWarrior#1516 on 10/8/2012 2:40 PM PDT
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amazing topic good work.

why is noone posting here anymore?

to give my 2 cents. i started monk because i got bored by me ww barb( who can farm act 3 easy ) and i thought monks have more build diversity.

sadly that wasnt true. The one thing i want to say is if they nerf the loh and or the teleport i think i seriously gonna quit that game it is extremly importnant here to bring other sg up to par to fot , not nerf fot .
plz blizzard dont..
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as somone said already above, hire this Druin guy, and "delete" the whole crew that is working on monk`s changes right now. If you don't, I`ll kill you all while you sleep!
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Dat link o.O

http://diablo.somepage.com/popular/monk

The discrepancies in build diversities between classes is astonishing. If you read between the lines and make some assumptions it seems that 50+ % of barbs use some form of WW/Pprint/WotB/BR build, while the most used wd spec is used by a whopping 0.5% of players (although the core bear build is probably used by a very large percentage of all players).

It seems that atleast 80+ % of Monks have the same core SW/FoT-TC/Serenity/BoH build with mantra + 1skill swapped out. Looking at the table and taking into account that you can only activate one mantra at a time, the gap in level of build diversity between monks and the other classes is massive.
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This is amazing stuff love it all. I have a write up on Combination Strike

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794352532

Have to disagree a bit with Fists of Fury. I like the whole DoT effect and with proposed changes you still make it only 2 abilities within generators for it and one requiring others to hit. Idea is to increase it so that it can stack or general increase in dps over time in general.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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This is amazing stuff love it all. I have a write up on Combination Strike

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794352532

Have to disagree a bit with Fists of Fury. I like the whole DoT effect and with proposed changes you still make it only 2 abilities within generators for it and one requiring others to hit. Idea is to increase it so that it can stack or general increase in dps over time in general.


Do you mean possibly making the FoF dot stack over time?

I had never thought of this as an option but it would certainly be interesting to look into ... I can run the math on a stacking FoF dot and figure out what would be needed to compete with TC! :D
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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When I was leveling up my monk, I mapped FoT with TC on the right mouse button, and held it down for about half an hour at a time, teleporting and running around and killing stuff while eating my lunch with the other hand. Sometimes I didn't even look at the screen because I would either be running or fighting things and there wasn't really much to pay attention to.

Is this as "fun" as you want to make all the other skills? I don't disagree that it's effective, but it's certainly not that fun. The "fun" part about it was that I could run and teleport faster through repeated content in nightmare and hell (until it just got too boring to continue).


I am not sure if this is a criticism of me and my ideas or of someone else.

If it is meant to be addressed by me, then yes I do think the teleport on FoT is fun.

This is a hack and slash game so, without question, there will always be the option of holding down right click and sleeping while your character kills things. This is part of what makes games such as these attract so many botters.

However, that doesn't mean the "sleep while play" style is the most efficient and, unless you LOVE repetitive tasks, it is probably not the most fun.

The problem I found with most of the Monk's spirit generators was a LACK of things like TC's teleport not an overabundance of them.

If you use it only to hold right-click and sleep, that is 100% okay with me! However, I promise I am getting a LOT more utility out of that teleport than you are. There are so many ways to use it that even if TC was nerfed in damage AND proc rate I would be hard-pressed to replace it.

I suppose the best question to ask at this point would be: If you think the TC teleport is un-fun, what do you think would be more fun from a spirit generator?
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