Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

I have spent the best part of work reading and rereading this thread. I must say yes i love the changes that are proposed and some not as much. But hell they bring the monk out of mediocre stat he/she currently sits in for actual fighting. I saw the beta monk and was floored how well i liked it. On day one i started a Monk with no other class in mind. Once i found that my builds to survive became more limited as i played i started to narrow my view of the Monk. I lost sight of how good he can be and fell into a cookie cutter build without even knowing the builds. Those ideas here fire the imagination on how the game for the monk can be changed and would bring more than FoT to the field. I tried dual spirit generators to my cost when i was poorer than i am now. I may try it again if the Monk gets a fist in the right direction. Heck I’d like to see a small bonus given to those who use the Monk class weapons over the others (besides the current inherit bonuses only bound for Monk). I find weapons that are close to the axes i use and they have yet to stack up to my expectations. I do hope the “Team” will take everything read here today into consideration.
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+1 Bump...

You obviously are more capable than blizzard to fix this game.
Edited by OldSchool#1359 on 10/10/2012 5:58 AM PDT
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+1 Bump...

You obviously are more capable than blizzard to fix this game.


Hopefully Druin will help lead the push to make more players "happy monks"!
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Thank you all so much for the support!

I am working on some more math for FoF with a stacking dot and trying to balance Spirited Salvo assuming it gives a discount instead of flat spirit!

Hopefully I will have these done by today!
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I have yet to read through pages 2-4, but having read the first page ... all I gotta say is, Druin has my vote for Mayor of Monkville.


Note: I reserve the right to change my vote after reading pages 2-4 if he turns out to be a total kook.
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<3 Piffle
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Okay, the FoF math is proving to be more difficult than I thought ...

I have some good answers, but stacking DoTs do a LOT of damage.

If FoF's dot stacked and continued to do its current 100% weapon damage over 5 seconds, it would max out at 257% weapon damage per second compared to FoT:TC's 200% weapon damage per second.

However, FoT:TC doesn't scale nearly as well with AoE.

With 2 monsters, FoT:TC does 290% damage / second while FoF does 514% weapon damage per second (at max dot stack). This is an insanely high discrepancy that only gets bigger as more monsters get added.

I feel that this is probably too extreme.

However, if the dot is long enough it does take a significant amount of time to get to max stacks.

I think a stacking dot would be most useful if, for example, the dot was 10 seconds long and did 10% weapon damage per tick for a total of 100% weapon damage.

Against a single monster FoT:TC will do more damage for the first 4 seconds. On the 5th second, FoT:TC and WotHF:FoF would do similar damage and then FoF increases up to 257% damage per second which it hits at 9seconds in.

It should be noted that FoT:TC still destroys FoF in proc-rate when fighting 1 or 2 monsters and they have equal procs/second when fighting 3 monsters.

4 and up, FoF beats TC out but not by much.

Edit: My math for WotHF:FoF is based on the CURRENT numbers for WotHF and FoF as opposed to my "revised" numbers in my original post ... I will update the math in a bit to reflect my proposed increased dps from WotHF.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/10/2012 4:38 PM PDT
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An educated analysis, consistent* solutions addressing the main concern about monk, many thanks dudes !!
Keep up the good work, don't die, don't get surrounded at corner - luckily dev team's going to check this thread.

Bump for the win !!

* Well, almost ; )
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A stacking DoT for Fists of Fury is a very bad idea. Not only is this difficult to actually balance, but it still retains the fundamental problem of Fists of Fury -- its DoT effect.

Why is this bad for Fists of Fury? I'll steal a quote from my own post on Page 2:
09/25/2012 02:20 PMPosted by strikerdude
Unfortunately, the very dependence on the damage over time effect is what makes this rune deal the LEAST damage when compared to the other runes (except for Spirited Salvo). The 20% weapon damage DoT effect is insignificant in short battles (less than 3 seconds), and scales poorly in long battles (more than 10 seconds). In fact, Fists of Fury scales poorly with weapon speed, attack speed bonuses, critical hit chance, and critical hit damage because the DoT effect does not take advantage of any of these properties.

So even with a stacking DoT, Fists of Fury will continue to get worse with improving gear.

Also, a DoT effect just doesn't fit with the spirit of Fists of Fury. I'll steal another quote from the same post on Page 2:
09/25/2012 02:20 PMPosted by strikerdude
- Fists of Fury is supposed to be an aggressive rune. Applying damage over time effects is a tactical move, not an aggressive move.


DoT effects are inherently slow. A stacking DoT makes applying the full effect even slower. Way of the Hundred Fists is already slow. Fists of Fury doesn't need to be slower! Do you know why Blizzard gave Fists of Fury the teleport in the first place? It was to make up for the slowness! However, the teleport animation is also slow. All of this results in a rune that feels slow. A stacking DoT would only worsen this problem.

At the same time, slowness actually isn't a problem for tactical play. Also, DoT effects are a tactical move. Put these two things together and you get a rune that feels more tactical than aggressive. This really flies into the face of the name "Fists of Fury." When I think "fury," I think "strike hard and fast." I don't want WotHF's big damage rune to make me think "apply the DoT and let it take them down nice and easy." You might as well rename the rune "Fists of Methodical Attrition." That would not be fun at all.

Trust me -- it really is better to drop the DoT effect altogether and simply give it a big damage buff. I've suggested making Fists of Fury deal 175% weapon damage. It may seem boring on paper, but it wouldn't be boring in practice. This change would make Fists of Fury easier to balance, scale better with gear, and feel faster. This change is what would make the rune more effective and more fun.
Edited by strikerdude#1306 on 10/11/2012 3:20 AM PDT
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Hey Striker,

I most certainly did read through all of your posts multiple times so you can rest assured I am not just flatly ignoring your recommendation for changing FoF to a flat damage increase.

However, I do not think that would make for a good change to the skill. I will explain why:

1. Flat damage increases are, generally, VERY un-fun. They are always optimized with simple math and never provide new or unique play style choices.

This is the major reason for not choosing to simply increase the damage of ANY rune. 100% of my changes involve some sort of small to medium mechanic so that players have choices of what they want to accomplish.

All people in Diablo3 (aside from some extremely fringe tank-group situations) are trying to maximize their DPS.

Because of this, I think it is much more interesting when DPS is fairly even between most possible skills and then people can make choices based on HOW they want the damage to be delivered and what utility they want to gain from each skill.

2. A stacking DoT is literally nothing at all like a non-stacking DoT.

By allowing the DoT to stack, you allow the DoT to scale with all stats. This assumes that the DoT ticks can crit at your character's CHC and scale with CHD.

Furthermore, because a new instance of the dot is applied with each attack, the skill's DPS improves with Attack Speed just as any other skill does.

This means that, if the numbers are correctly set, a stacking DoT skill can compete in single target dps and AoE dps over time with any other given skill.

3. As for the "spirit" of FoF, I can't speak to this.

I am not the concept designer for D3 so I can't really know why they named the skill Fists of Fury then added a completely non-related (in my mind) effect to it.

I am not trying to re-design skills from a "theme" perspective (for the most part) and they seem to be okay with FoF being a "DoT skill" so I am okay sticking with it.

4. I totally agree with you regarding the "slow" feeling of WotHF.

I think, instead of proposing that WotHF gets and increase in base damage (140% to 154%) I will math it so that you get the same increase in DPS but do so by greatly increasing the speed of the first hit's attack animation.

This would solve the "wothf so slow" problem, it would solve the "wothf is bad at spirit generation" problem and it would solve the "wothf:fof dash is sooooooooooooooo clunky" problem.

Math pending.
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Okay, for the first time I am trying to use google docs instead of my native Excel for my math-ing so that you fellow forum readers can follow along. (this is basically reading rainbow!)

Here is my math spreadsheet for Thunderclap vs Fists of Fury assuming we give FoF a stacking DoT:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmdoqcIhoiAGdHFwVG1TY19pT1RsbHdLeHBsMV9PWlE

I do not know how to allow people to only edit certain cells and, for fear of the internet ruining my beautiful spreadsheet, I don't want to open it up to editing atm ... any suggestions here are welcome!

Note1: All of the numbers are in the "unit of measurement" of %DPS.
IE: with 0% crit 0% chd and 0% IAS and a weapon with 1 attacks per second and 100-100 damage, you would hit for exactly that much damage each second.

Note2: You can see that if we made the current FoF dot stack and kept all the other numbers as-is, FoF would be quite a bit stronger than FoT:TC. Not ideal!

Note3: Okay the full comparison is up! yay!
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/11/2012 12:54 PM PDT
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Update:
1. Changed lots of stuff regarding my WotHF recommendations.
2. Changed Fists of Fury section to a stacking DoT fully backed up with MATH!
3. Added an appendix that details my MATH for the FoF change.
4. Fixed some formatting for the Appendix section so people can actually find different appendices.
5. Changed my recommendation for WotHF:Hands of Lighting to be more in line with Strikerdude's testing. The increase in DPS the rune brings means it needs to have a lower-than-previously suggested proc-coefficient to be in line with other skills.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/11/2012 1:29 PM PDT
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Druin,

I know that your just as passionate about improving the Monk's skills as I am, but I have to vehmently disagree with where you're going with this stacking DoT stuff.

1. Flat damage increases are, generally, VERY un-fun. They are always optimized with simple math and never provide new or unique play style choices.
This is the major reason for not choosing to simply increase the damage of ANY rune. 100% of my changes involve some sort of small to medium mechanic so that players have choices of what they want to accomplish.

You're looking at things too narrowly. You have to consider all of the other skills that give synergy to the Spirit generators. It's the overall synergy of all skills in a build that determine a particular play style, not just one. You can't determine "fun factor" based on the choice of one skill alone, or based on the mere mathematics of how much you can min-max your numbers. The "Action" part of ARPG diminishes the mathematics part of the RPG component.

Here's reality: Players don't care about cutesy abilities if the abilities don't help the player with their ultimate goal -- slaying mobs. It doesn't matter whether they achieve this goal from a simple flat damage increase or a complex combo of skills. So to say that a flat damage increase is un-fun is flat out untrue. Simple high damage runes should remain a viable option for Monks. It is a legitimate play style choice.

With that said, there is no need to add additional gimmicks to the damage runes because lack of versatility is a necessary weakness to keep such runes balanced. This also gives more meaning to the effect runes and the utility skills. The end result would be an increase in player choices, not less.

And besides, players already have choices from the existing effect runes. Take Deadly Reach / Foresight for example. No one uses Foresight as a direct damage dealer! It's used for its effect in buffing the damage of your main damage dealer, like Wave of Light, Sweeping Wind or Seven-Sided Strike. Also take Crippling Wave / Concussion as an example. Again, its not a big damage dealer, but its effect helps the player tank a lot better.

There is nothing wrong with a Spirit generator skill being nothing but a damage dealer. FoT/TC is currently one (and moreso, due to the teleport), and WotHF/FoF and CW/Mangle can be too with proper buffs. I would rather see the Spirit generators be exceptional at only a few things, preferably only one thing, rather than being only good at several things. This would give players clear choices for the roles that their Spirit generator will give for their build. This promotes build diversity.

2. A stacking DoT is literally nothing at all like a non-stacking DoT.

By allowing the DoT to stack, you allow the DoT to scale with all stats. This assumes that the DoT ticks can crit at your character's CHC and scale with CHD.

Furthermore, because a new instance of the dot is applied with each attack, the skill's DPS improves with Attack Speed just as any other skill does.

This means that, if the numbers are correctly set, a stacking DoT skill can compete in single target dps and AoE dps over time with any other given skill.

This is dead wrong. First, no DoT works with CHC and CHD, not Sweeping Wind, not Exploding Palm, not Mantra of Conviction / Submission. Also, DoTs should NEVER work with CHC and CHD because this becomes insanely difficult to balance in practice. Due to how quickly DoT effects tick and how quick battles are in Diablo 3, a DoT that did work with CHC and CHD would have some very high damage deviations that would make it either grossly overpowered or grossly underpowered. The lack of consistency on what is a basic attack would be annoying for players.

Also, considering the speed of battles in Diablo 3, a stacking DoT would be identical to a non-stacking DoT, except the only difference between the two is the amount of time it takes to apply the DoT effect. All increased attack speed does is convert the stacking DoT into something more like a non-stacking DoT.

Here's an example from Borderlands: The Combustion Hellfire SMG dealt a stacking DoT burn effect with a very high chance to proc per shot and a 4x damage multiplier per tick. The weapon also had a fast attack speed at 12.5 shots per second. A stacking DoT works in this case because the fast attack speed made the stacking DoT more like a non-stacking DoT.

Next, take the Cobalt Firehawk repeater pistol, which deals the same DoT effect as the Combustion Hellfire. However, the attack speed is a much lower 5.5 shots per second. So to make this weapon competitive with Combustion Hellfire, the damage multiplier per tick is increased to 6x. Again, this is an example of making a stacking DoT more like a non-stacking DoT.

So consider two equivalent DoT applications:
- 10% stacking DoT effect applied for 10 hits
- 100% non-stacking DoT effect applied for 1 hit

Of course the player is going to choose the 100% non-stacking DoT every single time! It's easier to use and faster, which allows for more mobile and tactical play. A stacking DoT would only encourage the player to sustain their attack to maximize their damage, which slows them down and forces the player into more scenarios where they need to sit and tank. This hurts mobility.

If the DoT is really that important to you, then the best thing to do is to keep it as a non-stacking DoT and greatly buff the damage per tick so that its equivalent to what you would want in a stacking DoT. In a game with slow attacks and fast kills, a stacking DoT makes no sense in Diablo 3.
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Hey Striker! I am sorry that we so greatly differ in opinion on this one but, after reading what you wrote, I still very strongly believe I am heading the correct direction here.

I will try to address each of your concerns individually:
Here's reality: Players don't care about cutesy abilities if the abilities don't help the player with their ultimate goal -- slaying mobs. It doesn't matter whether they achieve this goal from a simple flat damage increase or a complex combo of skills. So to say that a flat damage increase is un-fun is flat out untrue. Simple high damage runes should remain a viable option for Monks. It is a legitimate play style choice.


The reason flat damage runes are "un-fun" is because they are too simple.
They are either mathematically better than everything else or mathematically worse. This does not really leave a lot of choice to the player.
However, if your DPS increases in an "interesting" way, it forces you to make choices.

Do I want more damage for the first 3 seconds? Do I want more damage for the long-haul? Do I want more AoE damage but less single target damage? ect.

I am trying to promote player choice with my changes and simple increases in damage rarely promote choice.

With that said, there is no need to add additional gimmicks to the damage runes because lack of versatility is a necessary weakness to keep such runes balanced. This also gives more meaning to the effect runes and the utility skills. The end result would be an increase in player choices, not less.


I feel like I am reading this wrong. I keep reading it as "less choices = more choices." Which I doubt you were trying to say.

Can you clarify this point please?

And besides, players already have choices from the existing effect runes. Take Deadly Reach / Foresight for example. No one uses Foresight as a direct damage dealer! It's used for its effect in buffing the damage of your main damage dealer, like Wave of Light, Sweeping Wind or Seven-Sided Strike. Also take Crippling Wave / Concussion as an example. Again, its not a big damage dealer, but its effect helps the player tank a lot better.


Foresight is an extremely good example of what I am trying to do. It increases your DPS in a VERY round-a-bout way and so it gets lots of use even though it does strictly less damage per second than other spirit generators.

Imagine replacing Foresight's 18% damage increase with "Increases the damage of Deadly Reach to 140%." This rune is no longer fun, nor interesting. It is either good dps, and you use it, or it's bad dps and you don't. No choices.

I feel I should note that you picked two of the only spirit gens Monks currently have that actually feel like a choice. They are very well designed compared with their rune-brothers-and-sisters.

That is why I have "change nothing" for both of those runes.

This is dead wrong. First, no DoT works with CHC and CHD, not Sweeping Wind, not Exploding Palm, not Mantra of Conviction / Submission. Also, DoTs should NEVER work with CHC and CHD because this becomes insanely difficult to balance in practice. Due to how quickly DoT effects tick and how quick battles are in Diablo 3, a DoT that did work with CHC and CHD would have some very high damage deviations that would make it either grossly overpowered or grossly underpowered. The lack of consistency on what is a basic attack would be annoying for players.


Unfortunately, you pretty much lose me here. I have no idea if DoT's use ChC and ChD or not, but that's not really a problem because it can still be easily balanced w/o those stats.

DoT's wouldn't benefit any more or less from ChC and ChD than any other ability ...

Currently my auto attack hits for ~50k and crits for ~200k. This doesn't bother me at all. Having a dot tick several times a second would make this effect LESS noticeable, not more.

Also, considering the speed of battles in Diablo 3, a stacking DoT would be identical to a non-stacking DoT, except the only difference between the two is the amount of time it takes to apply the DoT effect. All increased attack speed does is convert the stacking DoT into something more like a non-stacking DoT.


Battles for highly geared monks in 1.0.4 are in fact quite quick, I agree. I would never use this rune to farm my current Act3 run because nothing takes more than 3 seconds for me to kill and this stacking DoT only benefits past the 3s mark.

However, for lesser geared monks and higher MP levels in 1.0.5, battles can frequently last longer than 3seconds and then, you would start to see a large increase in overall DPS due to the stacking DoT.

This would be the "player choice" that I am referring to. I would use FoF in 1.0.5 on MP10 but I would not use it in Act2 VotA MP2 runs. Diversity! yay!

So consider two equivalent DoT applications:
- 10% stacking DoT effect applied for 10 hits
- 100% non-stacking DoT effect applied for 1 hit


This is not a question of 10% vs 100%.
The DoT is currently 100% over 5 seconds.
I am suggesting 70% over 7 seconds stacking.
After the second applicaiton of the 70% over 7 DoT, it would do more damage than the 100% over 5 DoT. After 4 seconds it would be doing something like 5x more damage.

Very very different.

Of course the player is going to choose the 100% non-stacking DoT every single time! It's easier to use and faster, which allows for more mobile and tactical play. A stacking DoT would only encourage the player to sustain their attack to maximize their damage, which slows them down and forces the player into more scenarios where they need to sit and tank. This hurts mobility.


There is no possible way a player would take the previous FoF over my proposed FoF.
Mine does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage per second almost immediately.

A stacking DoT does not cause players to stop any more than low-dps skills do. Again, this is a trade-off and promotes build diversity.

If the DoT is really that important to you, then the best thing to do is to keep it as a non-stacking DoT and greatly buff the damage per tick so that its equivalent to what you would want in a stacking DoT. In a game with slow attacks and fast kills, a stacking DoT makes no sense in Diablo 3.


Neither a stacking DoT nor a non-stacking DoT makes sense if they are set to super low damage.

A non-stacking DoT, if set too high, will dis-incentivise attacking mobs more than once which I do not want with this rune. (see my idea for Mangle for this use)

A stacking DoT, is just another way to distribute DPS. (lower at first, higher after x seconds)

FoT:TC has a flat-dps distribution. You do the same dps at second 1 and at second 10. I want to give players to option to trade dps in seconds 1 through 4 for the opportunity to get MORE dps in seconds 5 through - forever.

Then they can choose which fits their playstyle better.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/11/2012 3:00 PM PDT
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Druin,

I won't debate with you further on the non-stacking DoT vs. stacking DoT issue. I think we can agree to disagree on this point. I don't really know how else to describe what I'm saying about this topic. If you've played Borderlands with Combustion Hellfire, you would understand exactly what I'm talking about in terms of non-stacking DoT vs. stacking DoT equivalence and how it doesn't exactly work the same in Diablo 3 where attacks are much slower.

Actually, I think there's a deeper issue to address here.

The reason flat damage runes are "un-fun" is because they are too simple.
They are either mathematically better than everything else or mathematically worse. This does not really leave a lot of choice to the player.
However, if your DPS increases in an "interesting" way, it forces you to make choices.

Do I want more damage for the first 3 seconds? Do I want more damage for the long-haul? Do I want more AoE damage but less single target damage? ect.

I am trying to promote player choice with my changes and simple increases in damage rarely promote choice.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. You're assuming that simple skills reduce choices by virtue of being simple. That's not true. Any skill, simple or complex, forces the player to make choices. It's okay for players to choose between "low damage, strong effect" and "high damage, no effect". That's why we have different runes, so that players can make these choices.

I know you like math, and the math is an important factor in an ARPG, but it is not the end-all-be-all factor to everything. Remember the importance of Enigma armor in Diablo 2 PvP? If a Barb was trying to fight a Sorc and he had two Breath of the Dying axes and no Enigma, he would still get defeated by the Sorc. But if that same Barb did have Enigma, the tables turned and now the Barb was defeating the Sorc. Both Barbs did the same damage, but the Enigma Barb was able to properly use his damage, while the no Enigma Barb could not. This was a positioning issue, not a mathematical issue.

Here's what truly causes players to NOT make choices: If there are few skills that are clearly superior to all the other skills, or if there are skills that are clearly inferior to the others, then this will reduce player choices. FoT/TC is one such skill that has many effects, but actually reduces player choice because of its superiority to the other Spirit generators. The simplicity or the complexity of a skill has absolutely nothing to do with this sentiment.

Let's take an example out of the Yugioh TCG: A Normalcy beatdown deck consists of a bunch of Normal monsters that have very high attack power and no special effects. These are the most basic, simplest of monsters. However, the deck remains good despite the lack of monster effects due to the effects of its support cards. This makes Normalcy beatdown a great choice for anti-meta, and there are multiple ways to support the deck. The player needs to choose exactly how they want to support their simple monsters with their support cards, and then adjust their play accordingly.

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With that said, there is no need to add additional gimmicks to the damage runes because lack of versatility is a necessary weakness to keep such runes balanced. This also gives more meaning to the effect runes and the utility skills. The end result would be an increase in player choices, not less.


I feel like I am reading this wrong. I keep reading it as "less choices = more choices." Which I doubt you were trying to say.

Can you clarify this point please?

Sure thing, Druin.

You are assuming that simple = less choices, and complex = more choices. You can't see it like that, or else all your balance work becomes too narrow and fails to see the synergies with the other skills. You're thinking that "X skill has Y damage and Z effects, so players will choose X skill because Y damage or Z effects are simply too good to pass up." Instead, you should be thinking "player wants to fulfill whatever strategy, so players will choose Y ability that is present on X skill."

Let's translate this into real Diablo 3 terms: "FoT/TC has the best single-target damage and high AOE damage along with high attack speed, plus it has a teleport and knockback effect with a high proc rate. So players will choose FoT/TC because it is simply too good to pass up."

Instead, the idea for proper balancing should be: "Players want to use a strategy that involves dealing exceptional single-target damage, so players will choose the attack with the best single-target damage. FoT/TC has that ability in its skill. In addition, FoT/TC's high proc ability combos well with SW/Cyclone, which also deals high single-target damage. So to fulfill the strategy, players should use these two skills together."

See the difference? The first scenario ignores skill synergy, which can lead to overpowered or underpowered combinations, which then degenerates into a loss of build diversity, which is what we Monks suffer from now. The second scenario keeps skill synergy in mind, which then promotes build diversity because players can choose which skills they want to use to fulfill their strategy. Ideally, there should be multiple skills that can fulfill the same goals to give players choices. If we take the single-target damage scenario, this can be fulfilled by either Sweeping Wind / Cyclone or Exploding Palm / The Flesh is Weak. But these two skills operate very differently, so this also changes the player's play style. This is what real choice is.

Here's the key: High damage and its related attack speed and damage area are abilities unto themselves. Think of the high damage as its own effect. In this context, it's important to limit the additional effects of high damage runes because high damage is a very strong effect that helps directly with achieving the player's goal, which is to slay mobs.

A high damage rune with few or no effects can be effective with the right support skills, and completely ineffective without the right support. This is where the player's choices come into play. Which support skills should I choose with my high damage Spirit generator? Do I need a skill to cover a weakness? Do I need a skill to complement it's strength in high damage? How should I adjust my play style given the skills I chose?

Here's another example, this time from Marvel vs. Capcom 2: Cable is a character regarded as a one-trick pony who had terrible combo strings, mobility and zone control, but was still considered God Tier status due to his massive damage output with this Air Hyper Viper Beam super. A Cable player had the choice of using 2 defensive assists or 1 defensive asset and 1 battery assist. Of course, other players knew how to get around all of this stuff anyways, so there were still interesting matches in pro-gaming leagues with Cable. But how did a one-trick damage pony get to tournament level play? It's due to the player's choice in assist characters that covered Cable's weaknesses that made him strong.

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Foresight is an extremely good example of what I am trying to do. It increases your DPS in a VERY round-a-bout way and so it gets lots of use even though it does strictly less damage per second than other spirit generators.

Imagine replacing Foresight's 18% damage increase with "Increases the damage of Deadly Reach to 140%." This rune is no longer fun, nor interesting. It is either good dps, and you use it, or it's bad dps and you don't. No choices.


There's nothing wrong with damage dealing methods that are either direct or roundabout. That is the player's choice.

While it is true that only replacing Deadly Reach's 18% damage increase to 140% with no other effects is not as fun or interesting as the current effect, let's try a very simple modification to that idea:
"Increases damage to 140% weapon damage. Extends the first and second hits to 25 yards, and extends the third hit to 35 yards."

With the range increase, and no other effect, suddenly Foresight becomes much more interesting and opens up a lot of new possibilities! And this is just a simple damage and range buff. No roundabout stuff, no special effects. But very fun. I can think of a couple builds based on this change alone.

Don't take this as me wanting to change Foresight either, because I also agree that it's fine as-is. This was just an example of how Foresight, if it were to be a direct damage dealer, could be turned into a good one that maintains a similar level of build diversity and would still be fun to use.

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Here's my final argument: You're assuming that something like Crippling Wave / Mangle lacks choice because its too simple. But it does have choices. Consider Mangle's lack of mobility and the need for a complementary skill to make up for this. A player can choose to negate the mobility weakness with Cyclone Strike. Or they can choose to rushdown with Fleet Footed. Or they can complement the attack range with Deadly Reach. Or they can choose to lower the enemy movement speed with Tempest Rush. Each of these four options involves significant changes to play style. So don't you say that simple runes lack player choice, because that's simply not true.

Soon, I'll be posting a complete review for Crippling Wave and its runes, so this should shed some light on where I'm coming from in terms of damage, effect, and spirit generation runes, and how they relate to the overall balance of the Monk class.
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Updated October 13, 2012:
- I've updated my piece on Mangle. After my debate with Druin, I realized that a stacking DoT mechanic may not be so useful with Fists of Fury, but extremely useful with Mangle. So instead of maintaining a flat damage increase for Mangle, now I'm convinced that it should be changed to use a stacking DoT mechanic instead.


3. CRIPPLING WAVE

Crippling Wave is probably the Spirit generator that is closest to having the best balance in terms of rune-by-rune comparisons, skill synergies, and competitiveness with Fists of Thunder. By comparing the effects of the two skills, one might say that Crippling Wave is the opposite of Fists of Thunder. Crippling Wave's base effect of reducing attack speed and movement speed is useful for both defense and offense, and the large AOE hit area makes the skill easy to use. Because of this, Crippling Wave is very versatile and can be effectively used in many builds.

Crippling Wave's most notable synergy is with Cyclone Strike. This combo allows the Monk to use Cyclone Strike to reposition mobs into Crippling Wave's ideal damage area. This has a very strong effect for both damage and proc effects. Any Monk using Crippling Wave should seriously consider using Cyclone Strike in their build.

While Crippling Wave is versatile, it does have one major weakness. The first two attacks are a small front AOE cone that can only hit enemies within melee range. In addition, the attacks themselves are slow. These two issues give Crippling Wave the weakest mobility of all the Spirit generators. Because of this, Crippling Wave requires additional support to make up for its lack of mobility.

Cyclone Strike is a good way to negate Crippling Wave's weakness. If your build doesn't make use of Cyclone Strike, then increased movement speed is another good way to help a Monk engage the enemy, making Fleet Footed a must have. Tempest Rush also has a strong synergy with Crippling Wave because Tempest Rush's movement speed reduction combined with Crippling Wave's own effect can nearly immobilize enemies. Tempest Rush can also help the Monk get into ideal positioning to maximize the number of targets Crippling Wave hits. Dashing Strike can be an option, but is the weakest mobility option since it wastes Crippling Wave's movement speed reduction effect.

Another way to make up for Crippling Wave's lack of mobility is to use Deadly Reach, the most mobile-friendly Spirit generator. Crippling Wave and Deadly Reach have a great synergy since their damage areas complement each other. Deadly Reach can easily hit kiting enemies that are out of Crippling Wave's attack range, while Crippling Wave can hit all enemies when they surround you. Also, the DR --> DR --> CW combo is one of the best combos that the Monk has since it allows you to take advantage of the fastest attacks of Deadly Reach and Crippling Wave. The overall attack speed of this combo is comparable to Fists of Thunder.

Balancing Crippling Wave and its runes to Fists of Thunder / Thunderclap is actually a very difficult task, considering that Crippling Wave is very good as it is. However, due to Crippling Wave's weak mobility, Crippling Wave can use some small improvements to help it keep up with the other Spirit generators. The following balance discussion will refer back to Crippling Wave's mobility issues and how each rune can be buffed to make up for Crippling Wave's lack of mobility.

3a. MANGLE (DAMAGE)
Mangle is the only rune besides Way of the Hundred Fists / Hands of Lightning that can currently compete with FoT/TC in terms of raw damage output. It has the highest weapon damage of any Spirit generator skill, and also retains Crippling Wave's large AOE damage area. Any Monk that wants their primary damage method to be based on direct attack damage should give Mangle a serious look.

Mangle can only be used for direct attacks. Trying to use Mangle for any other purpose is wasting its damage potential. This makes Mangle have the least versatility of the Crippling Wave runes. Unfortunately, this also means that Mangle suffers the most from Crippling Wave's mobility weakness. Mobility support skills like Cyclone Strike, Fleet Footed or Deadly Reach become mandatory in order to properly engage the enemy.

I believe that Mangle's damage is very good if it's considered as a standalone skill. However, since Mangle absolutely needs at least one support skill to make up for its lack of mobility, Mangle needs a small buff to weapon damage to better compete with FoT/TC, which has both high damage and a mobility feature in one skill.

Currently, Mangle deals a flat damage increase. Something that would make the skill more interesting is to use a stacking damage over time mechanic instead. Given that Mangle attacks slow, lacks mobility, and has a large damage radius, this actually makes a DoT mechanic complement Mangle perfectly. A DoT would also have great synergy with Crippling Wave's snare effects. Players can use this aggressively by taking advantage of the attack speed reduction to continuously apply the DoT when pressing the attack, or use this defensively by taking advantage of the movement speed reduction when using hit-and-run tactics.

I suggest removing the flat damage increase and replacing it with a stacking damage over time mechanic, where each hit deals 5% weapon damage per second for 9 seconds.

In practice, Mangle's current attack style is to press large and dense mob packs. A stacking DoT mechanic would not disrupt this attack style. In fact, the attack style would be enhanced since this would make Mangle stronger against tough single targets, but only over time. This also opens up a new attack style for Mangle, which is hit-and-run. Since Mangle requires a supporting mobility skill anyways, the hit-and-run style would not require any additional support. So a stacking DoT would improve Mangle's versatility in usage.

(Special thanks to Druin for helping me to change my opinion on this one!)

As for giving Mangle any additional effects, this is where my opinion differs from the OP. I believe that Mangle should just maintain raw damage output. It doesn't need any additional proc power because such an ability belongs with Tsunami (I'll get to that later). Also, Mangle can still proc SW/Cyclone decently, where the cyclones help to make up for Crippling Wave's lower single-target damage output. Some might say that my suggested damage buff is too conservative, especially compared to the damage buff I suggested for Way of the Hundred Fists / Fists of Fury (175% weapon damage).

But consider: Crippling Wave hits a larger area than FoT and WotHF for all three hits, so Mangle's damage needs to be a little lower or else it will be overpowered. Of course, the tradeoff for this kind of damage potential is Mangle's lack of mobility. The mobility issue is what will keep Mangle's damage in balance.

Proposed Changes - Mangle:
* Remove the flat damage increase.
* Add a stacking damage over time mechanic. Each hit deals 5% weapon damage per second as Holy for 9 seconds. This effect can stack

"Enemies hit by Crippling Wave take an additional 45% weapon damage as Holy over 9 seconds. This effect can stack."


3b. CONCUSSION (EFFECT)
Concussion's effect is very useful in solo play and extremely useful in team play since it essentially reduces the enemy damage for all players. Combined with Mantra of Conviction / Intimidation and Resolve, the enemy damage output can be cut in half for the entire team. Tempest Rush / Bluster also has a very strong synergy with Concussion.

Two nice points about Concussion:
- Any strike can apply the effect
- There is no cap on the number of enemies affected per strike

Since Concussion is mainly used for tanking, this rune is the least affected by Crippling Wave's low mobility. This makes Concussion the most standalone out of all the Crippling Wave runes. In fact, Concussion is the easiest rune to use, and any build can make effective use of it.

However, a 3 second duration forces the Monk to maintain their position to keep up the effect. If the Monk has to move (maybe a bunch of desecrator or arcane sentries went down), the effect soon disappears and may result in the deaths of your teammates or even yourself. For an effect that is purely defensive, I feel that it should provide better support for the team since you are sacrificing much damage potential in order to use the effect. A good way to improve this is to increase all debuff durations to 6 seconds to give players more time to run away when they're put on the defensive.

Proposed Changes - Concussion:
* Increase effect duration from 3 seconds to 6 seconds
* Increase movement speed and attack speed reduction effect duration from 3 seconds to 6 seconds

"Enemies hit by Crippling Wave inflict 20% less damage for 6 seconds. Also increases Crippling Wave's effect duration of the movement speed and attack speed reduction to 6 seconds."


3c. RISING TIDE (GENERATOR)
Rising Tide can potentially be the fastest Spirit generating rune out of any skill in the Monk's arsenal. On the other hand, it can potentially be the slowest. Out of all of the Crippling Wave runes, Rising Tide is the most position-dependent, and so Cyclone Strike becomes mandatory when using Rising Tide. But make no mistake -- if a Monk is using Cyclone Strike, Rising Tide's Spirit generation is the best out of any Spirit generator.

Some Rising Tide usage examples:

- CW/RT + Cyclone Strike can create a very effective lockdown. Rising Tide allows you to generate the necessary Spirit to spam Cyclone Strike, preventing enemies from running away. Cyclone Strike's ability to interrupt attacks also works well as a soft defense.

- Tanking builds can get a nearly unstoppable sustain when using CW/RT + Cyclone Strike + Transcendence. Simply cycle Cyclone Strike and Rising Tide attacks. Transcendence combined with Life on Hit or Life Steal will let you gain a ridiculous amount of HP per cycle.

- Dodge builds that use CW/RT + Cyclone Strike / Wall of Wind + Mantra of Evasion / Backlash is extremely effective for shield users. The lower attack speed is made up by Cyclone Strike spam and Backlash, both of which work independently of attack speed.

- Burst damage builds that use CW/RT + Cyclone Strike + Wave of Light / Wall of Light or CW/RT + Cyclone Strike + Seven-Sided Strike / Fulminating Onslaught are extremely effective for 2-hand weapon users. A well-positioned Cyclone Strike can draw all enemies in for a focused burst damage follow-up, which can easily one-shot most mobs. In fact, this is the strongest burst damage combination available to the Monk.

However, all this great Spirit generation comes with a major weakness -- its total reliance on Cyclone Strike to reposition the mobs. This is the result of Crippling Wave's lack of mobility. If you take away Cyclone Strike, Rising Tide easily becomes the worst Spirit generating skill. Also, Cyclone Strike has a Spirit cost in itself, so this requires more skill on the Monk player's part to manage their Spirit pool effectively.

Rising Tide's main problem is its lack of consistency in generating Spirit. Fists of Thunder / Quickening and Deadly Reach / Strike from Beyond both attack faster, making them more consistent. Rising Tide attacks slower, making it less consistent. Since the consistency of Spirit generation is crucial for any Spirit spender build, this puts Rising Tide at an overall disadvantage compared to the other two runes.

Another issue is Rising Tide's inability to generate much Spirit from single targets due to having low Spirit generation. Against single targets, Rising Tide's Spirit generation is substantially lower than Quickening and Strike from Beyond. To have comparable Spirit generation to the other two runes, Rising Tide must hit at least 4 targets per attack. While it's fine for Rising Tide to generate less Spirit when fewer targets are available, many scenarios involve less than 4 targets. This makes Rising Tide much more situational than Quickening and Strike from Beyond, and so Rising Tide deserves a buff to compensate for this.

The easiest way to solve both the "lack of Spirit generation consistency" and "multiple target requirement" problems is to guarantee some Spirit generation per target hit. I suggest that every target hit generates 2 Spirit, and every critical hit generates an additional 4 Spirit. This change would make Rising Tide much easier to use. Not only will Rising Tide be less dependent on Cyclone Strike, but if a Monk player still wants to continue using Cyclone Strike, it will help ease the burden of managing the Spirit costs.

Proposed Changes - Rising Tide:
* Change to generate 2 Spirit per target hit, plus an additional 4 Spirit per target Critical Hit.

"Crippling Wave generates an additional 2 Spirit per target hit. If the target takes a Critical Hit, Crippling Wave generates an additional 6 Spirit instead."


3d. TSUNAMI (DAMAGE, EFFECT)
Tsunami is Crippling Wave's most balanced rune. The 17 yard radius is the largest AOE attack of any primary skill in the game, and the free 60% movement speed debuff is very effective in both offense and defense. Along with Concussion, Tsunami can still be good without any mobility enhancing skills. The movement speed debuff can slow down mobs long enough for you to stay on them, and the large damage area will make it easier for you to hit them.

Tsunami is Mangle's main competitor for dealing raw damage. Monks with high DPS can trade their single-target damage Spirit generator skills for Tsunami for better farming efficiency. Tsunami is one of the best tools for efficient gold farming if you have a large enough pickup radius.

Tsunami is the weakest rune against single targets out of every Spirit generator skill in the Monk's arsenal. This makes single-target damage skills mandatory when using Tsunami. However, Tsunami's strength against multiple targets make Explosive Palm and Seven-Sided Strike great skills that complement Tsunami.

Deadly Reach also complements Tsunami extremely well. Tsunami's third strike has a comparable range to Deadly Reach, which makes Tsunami the best rune to use for the DR --> DR --> CW combo. In addition, Tsunami's improved movement speed reduction effect makes this combo even more versatile in both offense and defense.

Since Tsunami's damage area is so large, it actually loses its synergy with Cyclone Strike. You will be wasting Tsunami's large damage area since Cyclone Strike repositions mobs very close to you.

Tsunami is a great multipurpose rune to use, but it does have a major weakness in its lack of single-target damage. I believe this weakness should remain to prevent Tsunami from being too good at everything. However, it currently has only two good single-target damage skills to complement it (Exploding Palm and Seven-Sided Strike). I would like there to be at least one more single-target damage option.

Of the three remaining options, there are: Wave of Light, Dashing Strike / Quicksilver and Sweeping Wind / Cyclone.

- Wave of Light is the weakest option due to its high Spirit cost. If one were to use additional skills to pay for Wave of Light's Spirit costs, the overall damage output and survivability would become too low for such a build to be worth it. Also, Wave of Light's knockback puts enemies out of range of Tsunami, making it more difficult to follow up with attacks. Tsunami has very poor synergy with Wave of Light, and this is unlikely to change unless very drastic changes are made to several of the Monk skills.

- Dashing Strike / Quicksilver can be good, but you waste Tsunami's movement speed reduction effect when using it. So the synergy is okay, but not perfect. Unfortunately, there is no way to improve this synergy due to the differing movement mechanics of Tsunami and Dashing Strike.

- Sweeping Wind / Cyclone is okay, but Tsunami's attacks are slow, and Tsunami also suffers from a lowered proc rate on the third strike. However, the synergy would be perfect if the proc rate were to be buffed.

So I believe that Sweeping Wind / Cyclone would be the best bet for the third single-target damage skill to complement Tsunami. I suggest increasing Tsunami's proc rate. This would improve build diversity by giving Tsunami a chance to compete with FoT/TC, the current king of SW/Cyclone procs. This would also give Tsunami the option to be used for LoH/LS sustain strategies, further improving Tsunami's versatility.

Proposed Changes - Tsunami:
* Increase proc rate to 85%/85%/60% for each hit, respectively.


3e. BREAKING WAVE (EFFECT)
Breaking Wave is the other powerful effect besides Concussion that works well in both solo play and team play. Any enemy hit by Crippling Wave translates into a damage buff for every player. Breaking Wave also has a great synergy with most skills, with any damage dealing skill immediately benefitting from the effect. Exploding Palm / The Flesh is Weak, Sweeping Wind / Blade Storm, Sweeping Wind / Cyclone, Mantra of Conviction / Overawe and Mantra of Conviction / Submission have especially good synergy with Breaking Wave.

Like Concussion, Breaking Wave's effect can be applied with any of the three strikes, and there is no cap on the number of enemies affected per strike. These two points are even better for Breaking Wave, since it essentially increases Crippling Wave's attack damage to 121% weapon damage. Combined with powerful burst damage skills like Seven-Sided Strike / Sudden Assault or Wave of Light / Wall of Light, you can assassinate single targets easier. Your team mates will also appreciate the higher damage numbers.

Breaking Wave is mostly used for team play, but is still serviceable in solo play. Always make sure to keep a follower and a Mystic Ally around whenever you run Breaking Wave in solo. The Scoundrel follower and Mystic Ally / Fire Ally are especially good at taking advantage of Breaking Wave's debuff.

Breaking Wave's effect is good, but like the other runes, it suffers from its share of mobility problems. Breaking Wave still requires the use of mobility support skills like Cyclone Strike, Tempest Rush or Fleet Footed to make the most out of it. For this reason, Breaking Wave should get a slight buff to make it more competitive with FoT/TC.

The best way to buff Breaking Wave is to further enhance its effect. I suggest increasing the enemy damage taken by 25%, up from 10%. This would greatly improve Breaking Wave's team support and increase the synergy with the Monk's other damage skills. More importantly, this change makes Breaking Wave a viable alternative to Mantra of Conviction / Overawe. Monk players can still use both Breaking Wave and Overawe together to get a massive debuff on the enemy, but this change should help Breaking Wave stand more on its own and reduce the necessity for Overawe. This would allow players to explore other Mantra options without feeling like they are giving up all their DPS. This promotes build diversity.

However, Breaking Wave is meant to be an effect rune, not a damage rune like Mangle. So to keep it balanced, its damage needs to be reduced to 95% weapon damage. Together with the 25% damage taken debuff, this effectively makes Crippling Wave deal 119% weapon damage, which is a net loss of only 2% weapon damage. Considering that a 25% more damage taken effect is a huge debuff for a skill that costs no Spirit, this tradeoff still results in a massive net buff for Breaking Wave.

Proposed Changes - Breaking Wave:
* Reduce damage to 95% weapon damage.
* Increase enemy damage taken to 25%.

"Reduces damage to 95% weapon damage. Enemies hit by Crippling Wave take 25% additional damage from all attacks for 3 seconds."


---

That's the end of the review. It took a lot of time for me to test all this stuff and do the write up, so I hope you liked it!
Edited by strikerdude#1306 on 10/13/2012 7:03 PM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Hey Striker,

This is a lot of stuff to respond to sooooooo here goes! :D

Post 1.

I won't debate with you further on the non-stacking DoT vs. stacking DoT issue. I think we can agree to disagree on this point. I don't really know how else to describe what I'm saying about this topic. If you've played Borderlands with Combustion Hellfire, you would understand exactly what I'm talking about in terms of non-stacking DoT vs. stacking DoT equivalence and how it doesn't exactly work the same in Diablo 3 where attacks are much slower.


I am sincerely sorry that I have failed to communicate my point well enough. :(

This really shouldn't be a topic of "opinions" so having to agree to disagree basically means I have failed horribly.

Bummer.

For simplicity and so that we can even continue to have a conversation, pretend my rune suggestion does the following:

FoF now does 140% damage on the first hit and then 10% more damage with each successive hit. This bonus caps at 60% and resets after 1 second of not attacking

New damage structure: 140-150-160-170-180-190-200-200-200-200...ect.
Average of first 7 hits: 170%
Theoretical max average: ~200%

This is roughly equivalent to your 175% flat damage rune against monsters that take ~7 seconds to kill when using a 1.00 attack speed weapon. :D

Here's what truly causes players to NOT make choices: If there are few skills that are clearly superior to all the other skills, or if there are skills that are clearly inferior to the others, then this will reduce player choices. FoT/TC is one such skill that has many effects, but actually reduces player choice because of its superiority to the other Spirit generators. The simplicity or the complexity of a skill has absolutely nothing to do with this sentiment.


Agreed. However, my point is that it is MUCH easier to have this situation when all the skills are simple and MUCH harder to have this situation when all the skills are slightly complex.

See the difference? The first scenario ignores skill synergy, which can lead to overpowered or underpowered combinations, which then degenerates into a loss of build diversity, which is what we Monks suffer from now. The second scenario keeps skill synergy in mind, which then promotes build diversity because players can choose which skills they want to use to fulfill their strategy. Ideally, there should be multiple skills that can fulfill the same goals to give players choices. If we take the single-target damage scenario, this can be fulfilled by either Sweeping Wind / Cyclone or Exploding Palm / The Flesh is Weak. But these two skills operate very differently, so this also changes the player's play style. This is what real choice is.


Of course I think of skill synergies when I propose changes. They would be horrible changes otherwise.

This is why I give proc-coefficient data AND data on how the skill will effect single target damage AND multiple target damage.

I then suggest numbers that balance things between these different variables giving the edge to specific skills in certain situations based on what I think the spirit of the rune is.

Here's the key: High damage and its related attack speed and damage area are abilities unto themselves. Think of the high damage as its own effect. In this context, it's important to limit the additional effects of high damage runes because high damage is a very strong effect that helps directly with achieving the player's goal, which is to slay mobs.


I actually 1000000% agree with you about this. Every single part of a skill can be seen as an "effect" and should be treated as such. There is no good reason that any CW rune should be balanced to do the same SINGLE target damage as FoT:TC because CW's AoE range is HUGE compared to FoT:TC's.

The "possibility" factor of a given rune tends to be based on how many of these variables you change, and the what extent.

Therefore, if you are going to shift just 1 variable, it is a good idea to do so in an interesting way.

You chose to increase the damage flatly. I chose to increase it linearly over time.

A high damage rune with few or no effects can be effective with the right support skills, and completely ineffective without the right support. This is where the player's choices come into play. Which support skills should I choose with my high damage Spirit generator? Do I need a skill to cover a weakness? Do I need a skill to complement it's strength in high damage? How should I adjust my play style given the skills I chose?


Please, give me an example of a "Synergy" that works specifically with a flat damage rune and not with other, comparable, complex damage runes.

Also, I would love an example of what you think is a "weakness" of a flat damage rune that is specific to that type of rune.

My point here is:
Anything that is a "synergy" with a flat damage rune, is also a "synergy" with every other damage dealing ability in the game because there is nothing intrinsically different about flat damage.
The same goes for weaknesses. There is no weakness to dealing more flat damage that is not ALSO a weakness of dealing flat damage + effect.

"Increases damage to 140% weapon damage. Extends the first and second hits to 25 yards, and extends the third hit to 35 yards."


Again, this is a change to TWO variables and would be much more interesting than a simple flat damage rune. (see my piercing trident proposal)

This is not what you are suggesting for WotHF:FoF and IS what I am suggesting.

With the range increase, and no other effect, suddenly Foresight becomes much more interesting and opens up a lot of new possibilities!


I will show you what that sentance would look like for my FoF proposal:

With the damage distribution change, and no other effect, suddenly Fists of Fury becomes much more interesting and opens up a lot of new possibilities!


Here's my final argument: You're assuming that something like Crippling Wave / Mangle lacks choice because its too simple. But it does have choices. Consider Mangle's lack of mobility and the need for a complementary skill to make up for this. A player can choose to negate the mobility weakness with Cyclone Strike. Or they can choose to rushdown with Fleet Footed. Or they can complement the attack range with Deadly Reach. Or they can choose to lower the enemy movement speed with Tempest Rush. Each of these four options involves significant changes to play style. So don't you say that simple runes lack player choice, because that's simply not true.


I think this is the core of this entire disagreement.

I do not believe that simple runes lack player choice. I 100% agree with your above example of mangle's weaknesses and the possible ways to solve them.

A flat damage rune is MUCH better, for player choice, than no rune at all.

However, a flat damage rune does promote LESS player choice than a complex damage rune.

Both fulfill the same roll: Increase damage.
One stops there.
One goes a step further so there is another element to take into consideration.

Again, I agree that flat damage runes do promote player choice.

My entire point is that they promote LESS player choice than complex damage runes.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Post 2.

Mangle

I mainly agree, we both clearly want mangle to have higher damage.

This is where my opinion differs from the OP. I believe that Mangle should just maintain raw damage output. It doesn't need any additional proc power because such an ability belongs with Tsunami (I'll get to that later). Also, Mangle can still proc SW/Cyclone decently, where the cyclones help to make up for Crippling Wave's lower single-target damage output. Some might say that my suggested damage buff is too conservative, especially compared to the damage buff I suggested for Way of the Hundred Fists / Fists of Fury (175% weapon damage).


Obviously, I disagree here due to my 10,000 word essay in the above post regarding not changing single variables of skills.

I am, by no means overly attached to the dot concept (though I do like the idea of a DS in, hit hit BOOM, DS out as mobs melt behind you playstyle).

My reasoning for giving the DoT a proc-coefficient was that in a prolonged fight a DoT is pretty useless because its damage is so static. Perhaps this isn't a needed concern though.
(maybe I should change it to a stacking DoT? trolololololol)

Concussion

I love your proposed change and the reason for it. <steals>

Rising Tide

Another guy posted the same concept, having Rising Tide generate spirit on a per-hit basis instead of a per-crit basis. (yours being a combination of the two)

It is actually quite easily mathable and I meant to update my original post with this idea before.

I would love to hear thoughts on completely removing the crit-aspect from the skill to give it some flavor difference between Quickening and Strike from Beyond?

Tsunami

Tsunami is Crippling Wave's most balanced rune. The 17 yard radius is the largest AOE attack of any primary skill in the game, and the free 60% movement speed debuff is very effective in both offense and defense. Along with Concussion, Tsunami can still be good without any mobility enhancing skills. The movement speed debuff can slow down mobs long enough for you to stay on them, and the large damage area will make it easier for you to hit them.


I do not find this to be true. I have found this to be one of the weakest runes out of all the spirit generators.

The increase in range is okay, but it does very low damage compared with other runes and the 60% snare is very hard to gain effect from due to monks being a primarily melee range / in your face class.

I feel that this rune suffers from all the same problems that other CW runes do, but it does not give any compensation for those downsides.

Deadly Reach also complements Tsunami extremely well. Tsunami's third strike has a comparable range to Deadly Reach, which makes Tsunami the best rune to use for the DR --> DR --> CW combo. In addition, Tsunami's improved movement speed reduction effect makes this combo even more versatile in both offense and defense.


This is easily the most compelling argument I have ever seen for Tsunami's use. However, in testing, I have found it is nearly 100% impossible to actually do DR DR CW combos with any reasonable efficiency.

My only thought is that with a very slow weapon this might be possible? Unfortunately, slow weapons are in conflict with basic monk mechanics and are rarely viable. :(

If they ever come up with a system that allows you to choose which spirit gen each left click does, ie: hitting left click 3 times would yield DR DR CW:Tsunami, I would give this rune another look. Until then, I think it requires a lot more work.

Breaking Wave

I suppose I can see the draw for a low-damage high-debuff rune.

I would take your proposed rune over the current iteration of the skill.

It is also a lot less complex than my proposal.

I would like to see the skill do a little more damage as a base (I still believe ALL CW runes need increased damage to be competitive due to their short range + no mobility problem).

I will do the super simple math and make sure it does less than mangle but buffs other skills / players.

<steals>

Great suggestions! <3
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I just want to voice my appreciation on all of the diligent work you've done here. MANY good ideas.. all thoroughly thought out and written.

Very helpful THANK YOU

+1m :)
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I have spent more time reading over and over this post lately than actually playing my Monk. I see a very bright future If the Dev's dive into your proposals. I Know the monk has a long way to go to be the "Bad !@#" he/she is suppose to be. The suggestions and proposals here gives me hope for Monks in general. When the time comes I hope you both will be getting calls from blizzard and even hopefully paid for your ideas in some way for the improvement of the Monk class. I see a light coming and hope it isn't too far away.
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