Diablo® III

[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

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Zero barbs referenced in this post.

100% about our spirit generators and how we are all funneled into using FoT:TC
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Thanks for your nice post, Druin!
Nice work on that spirit generators. Thank you!

Let´s hope, Blizzard will look and listen to this.

Greetz
Turok
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add me on 110k dps unbuff mOr3Luck#6923
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Thanks for the support Turok!

I will be updating this today with some of the things I said I would change (switching the stacking DoT from FoF to Mangle, FoF becoming a more "agressive" skill ect.)

Pending math(tm) ;)
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Love the thread mate, I've just posted up my own all encompassing suggestions for future monk changes and I highly recommended all your proposed changes for primary attacks, and also suggested that everyone come check this thread out. If you've got time I would love any and all feedback on what I've proposed.
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10/26/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Zergi
Love the thread mate, I've just posted up my own all encompassing suggestions for future monk changes and I highly recommended all your proposed changes for primary attacks, and also suggested that everyone come check this thread out. If you've got time I would love any and all feedback on what I've proposed.


Will read and give comprehensive comments when I am done updating my thread! :D
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Update:
1. I made a new spreadsheet for FoT:TC vs CW:Mangle with Mangle applying a stacking DoT. I think my math is better on this one than it was for FoF and I like the concept more. I updated the recommendation for Mangle to fit these numbers.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmdoqcIhoiAGdGxRUGI2T3hoNldRTHN2dHcwQVBoaVE#gid=0

2. I updated my recommendation for WotHF:FoF to fit Strikerdude's increased first hit damage model. I also added in a double-length teleport because I still plan on giving all WotHF runes the FoF teleport naturally.

3. I updated CW:Rising Tide to be spirit per hit instead of spirit per crit which was suggested in the thread earlier. At 3 spirit per hit it is higher than the previous rune until you pass the 60% crit chance mark which VERY few monks can do.

4. I updated each spirit generator with a "spirit per hit" stat and a "spirit generated per second" stat so you could see which spirit gens actually produce spirit faster.

5. I changed my recommended spirit per hit numbers for each generator to make them all relatively similar in spirit per second generated.

That is all for today!

-Druin, the happy monk
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4b. Blazing Fists
Effect: Crits increase attack speed and run speed by 5% for 5 seconds. Can stack up to 3 times.


I'm currently using this rune for high MP levels, it cuts through elites and the ubers like butter. Single target, i would say this is superior to FoT its like having a frenzy AND a fleeting shrine the entire fight... literally... its not as good for low MP speed farming because of the AOE of FoT but the run speed with definetly helps. For MP8+, i feel like you need those white mobs around for leach anyway, anyone have an argument/numbers against Blazing Fists for high MP/Ubers?

Edit: Nice post druin, most spirit generators definitely need some love. a +1% per stack on Blazing fist would do wonders as well.
Edited by perfectchaos#1901 on 10/30/2012 3:31 AM PDT
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I'm currently using this rune for high MP levels, it cuts through elites and the ubers like butter. Single target, i would say this is superior to FoT its like having a frenzy AND a fleeting shrine the entire fight... literally... its not as good for low MP speed farming because of the AOE of FoT but the run speed with definetly helps. For MP8+, i feel like you need those white mobs around for leach anyway, anyone have an argument/numbers against Blazing Fists for high MP/Ubers?

Edit: Nice post druin, most spirit generators definitely need some love. a +1% per stack on Blazing fist would do wonders as well.


Hello perfectchaos!

Thanks for the support and I am really glad to hear you are having fun with a rune that isn't FoT:TC!

Before I go on I will once more state that I am NOT trying to tell you how to play. If you are enjoying Blazing Fists than, by all means, keep using it!

That being said, here is the math behind Blazing Fists vs. Thunderclap:
Note: These numbers assume Blazing Fists is at 3 stacks.
1 monster
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 180% || Thunderclap: 200%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 0.8 || Thunderclap: 1.88

2 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 360% || Thunderclap: 290%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 1.61 || Thunderclap: 3.00

3 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 539% || Thunderclap: 380%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 2.41 || Thunderclap: 4.13

4 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 719% || Thunderclap: 470%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 3.22 || Thunderclap: 5.25

5 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 899% || Thunderclap: 560%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 4.02 || Thunderclap: 6.38


Conclusion:
Yes, Blazing Fists does more damage than Thunderclap when fighting more than 1 monster, however its proc coefficient is MUCH lower even at maximum AoE potential.

Because SW:Cyclone increases your true DPS based on the proc-coefficient of your chosen attack, this tends to even out the DPS score (and in the case of a single target, Thunderclap does WAAAAAY more damage).

Furthermore, you lose the teleport from Thunderclap as well as the increased LoH.
I personally feel that Blazing Fists is one of the ONLY alternatives that isn't just flat out laughably worse than Thunderclap. The math is still in favor of TC though.
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druin, do me a favor and read the draft I have on that spreadsheet.

personally ive come to the conclusion that the imbalance for spirit generators is due more in part to sweeping wind than the spirit generators themselves.

(with the exception of some bugs like wothf not proccing cyclones and runes in fot sucking compared to thunderclap)

think about it, why is fot good?

mobility, ST DPS, and proc rate.

ST dps isnt important because other skills have better aoe dps.
proc rate is actually fairly balanced on paper, but we obsess over FoT because cyclone lets us convert proc rate into DPS.

so if we simply give generators more mobility and tweak sweeping wind:
we alleviate the majority of the problems in regards to proc rate and dps balancing.

I personally hate number tweaking.
because ultimately what you are trying to do is balance something on the tip of a needle.
balance should revolve around playstyles, not breakoff points.
Edited by Morionic#1764 on 10/30/2012 1:51 PM PDT
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Balls, I am at work and can't log into skype! lol
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/30/2012 2:31 PM PDT
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in stuck on my phone, still no power for a day or two.
u can add me on skype if u wanna talk there.

grimy.bunyip
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in stuck on my phone, still no power for a day or two.
u can add me on skype if u wanna talk there.

grimy.bunyip


Made a ton of comments in the "Topics" section.

Love your ideas :D <3
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Thanks for the quick response druin, that's kinda what i expected... I do notice a loss in the amount of cyclone's procced, but its obviously hard to calculate the damage done with those.

Little bit confused by the below:


5 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 899% || Thunderclap: 560%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 4.02 || Thunderclap: 6.38


So we are still showing that Blazing fists does (actually a lot) more damage than thunderclap when you hit 5 enemies with both? I think its important to note that its much harder to line up 5 enemies with any WOTHF rune than FOT.
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Thanks for the quick response druin, that's kinda what i expected... I do notice a loss in the amount of cyclone's procced, but its obviously hard to calculate the damage done with those.

Little bit confused by the below:


5 monsters
Avg Wpn Dmg% per Second: Blazing Fists: 899% || Thunderclap: 560%
Avg Proc C per Second: Blazing Fists: 4.02 || Thunderclap: 6.38


So we are still showing that Blazing fists does (actually a lot) more damage than thunderclap when you hit 5 enemies with both? I think its important to note that its much harder to line up 5 enemies with any WOTHF rune than FOT.


My pleasure!

Yes, my comparisons are based on # of monsters hit despite the fact that it is generally harder / easier to hit multiple mobs with different spirit gens.

There is no good way to quantify "easy of AoE" so I just put the "attack type" and leave it at that.

What is important to note about the difference in damage between TC and BF is that that difference in AoE damage is actually pretty low compared with most of the FoT runes compared with most of "AoE" designed skills. I think FoT was meant to have low AoE dps and Thunderclap even coming close to competing in the AoE field is somewhat out of line not to mention all the other things it brings to the table.

That being said, you will absolutely see more AoE dps from your attack when using a WotHF rune.

Edit: if you care to, you can actually calculate how much damage Cyclone is doing for you!
This is the "formula"
1. Divide your DPS by your attack speed to get your "damage." This is the number that your cyclones hit for 20% of. (will will call it 'TDmg' for total damage)
2. Multiply TDmg by 0.2*(1+Sweeping Winds bonus gear). Sweeping winds bonus damage gear is stuff like SoJ with +12% sweeping winds damage. This gear will make your Cyclones hit harder as well.
If you had 10% SW damage on your SoJ, you would take your TDmg*0.2*1.1 = TDmg * 0.22
TDmg * 0.2 * 1+(SW dmg bonus) = 'CDmg' or the damage that each hit from cyclone will do (on average).

3. Multiply CDmg by 6 because each cyclone proc hits 6 times. This will be 'TCD' or total cyclone damage.
4. Now it is time to figure out how many cyclones you will proc in a given amount of time. We will assume you are fighting just 1 monster and using FoT:Thunderclap.
Find the Avg Proc C per Second from my spreadsheet of spirit generators linked in my first post. (It is 1.88 for Thunderclap against 1 monster)

5. The Avg Proc C per Second is how likely it is to spawn a cyclone on any given CRIT. Multiply Avg Proc C per Second by your Crit%.
1.88 * CritChace = Cyclone proc chance per attack. (Cyc%)

6. Multiply Cyc% * Attack speed to find out, in a given second, how many cyclones you will spawn on average. (CycAvg)
7. Multiply CycAvg * TCD (total cyclone damage) and you will have exactly how much DPS your cyclones are doing.
8. So that you have a point of reference, your FoT:TC is doing 200% of your paperdoll DPS.

Example (FoT:TC):
40,000 Paperdoll DPS, 50% crit chance, 2 attacks per second, 10% SW bonus.
1. 40,000/2 = 20,000
2. 20,000 * 0.2 * 1.1 = 4,400
3. 4,400 * 6 = 26,400 (Total Cyclone Damage PER cyclone)
4. 1.88
5. 1.88 * 0.5 = 0.94
6. 0.94 * 2 = 1.88 (Average number of cyclones generated per second)
7. 1.88 * 26,400 = 49,632 total Cyclone DPS vs 1 mob
8. 40,000 * 2 = 80,000 total FoT:TC DPS vs 1 mob


Example (WotHF:BF)
40,000 Paperdoll DPS, 50% crit chance, 2 attacks per second, 10% SW bonus.
1. 40,000/2 = 20,000
2. 20,000 * 0.2 * 1.1 = 4,400
3. 4,400 * 6 = 26,400 (Total Cyclone Damage PER cyclone)
4. 0.8
5. 0.8 * 0.5 = 0.4
6. 0.4 * 2 = 0.8 (Average number of cyclones generated per second)
7. 0.8 * 26,400 = 21,120 total Cyclone DPS vs 1 mob
8. 40,000 * 1.8 = 72,000 total WotHF:BF DPS vs 1 mob
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/30/2012 4:52 PM PDT
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Did more testing ... will update tomorrow with new data for FoT:Bounding Light and FoT:Static Charge, which it turns out is better than FoT:Thunderclap for proccing cyclones! :D
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I haven't gone through the 7 pages but I have read the initial page. I am really glad you're keeping the original post up to date and I commend you for your efforts.

I'm fine with pretty much everything you suggest, except for adding the dash to Way of the Hundred Fists. I guess I'm alone here in the fact that I can't stand the teleport and dash mechanics of Thunderclap & Fist of Fury. I don't like how the screen sort of blinks when it occurs and I actually use Shift + WotHF to attack. It has a short range and I like that.

I prioritize positioning and teleporting onto a mob makes me feel like I'm losing control over my positioning. Unless the dash works like Dashing Strike, which I highly doubt they would do because then who would use DS?

If every rune for WotHF had a dash/teleport mechanic and that dash didn't put you behind the mob, I think I would stop playing altogether. WotHF is pretty much the only spirit gen I really like. Crippling wave is okay but it's far too slow (I like your suggested change here as well) which is my same problem with Deadly Reach. I don't know what it is about Fists of Thunder but it just feels gimmicky to me.

I love the proposed 10 second duration & 4 stacks for Blazing Fists. Changing it to fire damage is "meh" for me but I can't really argue against it.

It might be worthy to mention that I played Diablo 2 LoD a lot, and my favorite playstyle was as a Melee Paladin. Using Zeal and charge on left click I would alternate based on what I wanted to do. Hold down shift + zeal to attack and switch to charge for re-positioning. If Tempest Rush wasn't so prone to rubber-banding I would use it. Got me killed too many times though.
Edited by Sicyo#1617 on 11/1/2012 12:15 PM PDT
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I haven't gone through the 7 pages but I have read the initial page. I am really glad you're keeping the original post up to date and I commend you for your efforts.

I'm fine with pretty much everything you suggest, except for adding the dash to Way of the Hundred Fists. I guess I'm alone here in the fact that I can't stand the teleport and dash mechanics of Thunderclap & Fist of Fury. I don't like how the screen sort of blinks when it occurs and I actually use Shift + WotHF to attack. It has a short range and I like that.

I prioritize positioning and teleporting onto a mob makes me feel like I'm losing control over my positioning. Unless the dash works like Dashing Strike, which I highly doubt they would do because then who would use DS?

If every rune for WotHF had a dash/teleport mechanic and that dash didn't put you behind the mob, I think I would stop playing altogether. WotHF is pretty much the only spirit gen I really like. Crippling wave is okay but it's far too slow (I like your suggested change here as well) which is my same problem with Deadly Reach. I don't know what it is about Fists of Thunder but it just feels gimmicky to me.

I love the proposed 10 second duration & 4 stacks for Blazing Fists. Changing it to fire damage is "meh" for me but I can't really argue against it.

It might be worthy to mention that I played Diablo 2 LoD a lot, and my favorite playstyle was as a Melee Paladin. Using Zeal and charge on left click I would alternate based on what I wanted to do. Hold down shift + zeal to attack and switch to charge for re-positioning. If Tempest Rush wasn't so prone to rubber-banding I would use it. Got me killed too many times though.


First, as always, I applaud your use of a different spirit gen than FoT:TC! That is awesome and I wouldn't want to hurt your gameplay at all.

The reason I chose to add a dash to WotHF was due to efficiency. Without the dash, the skill knocks mobs away on the third hit then requires you to physically move forward to hit them again. This is exactly the same problem with FoT.

Without the dash, this causes a fair amount of lost DPS and consequently makes the spirit gen under perform relative to its listed DPS.

I suppose adding a dash isn't neccessary, but we would have to increase the damage a bit farther to compensate.

I am pretty set on FoT having a blink on all runes so I can totally see where you are coming from with a "I like melee but don't like blinking" not having a place in my current setup, I will think about it.

I should note, WotHF is currently the slowest spirit gen. It is slower than CW and MUCH slower than DR! :D

My reasoning for changing Blazing Wrath's damage to fire was to, hopefully, promote more
"+xx% damage to <elemental> skills" in the future. I think they can promote "different" builds and I would like to see more of that. It wouldn't effect your gameplay at all if you chose not to use it though!
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Update:
1. Changed my recommendation for FoT:Bounding Light to reflect newly discovered data that the chain lighting CAN'T hit the same mob twice.
(this lead to MUCH lower than expected damage when hitting 2 or 3 monsters)

2. Changed Appendix A. (math regarding Thunderclap vs Bounding Light). I have switched from a text based appendix to an online spreadsheet based appendix. I feel this is much easier to view! I have also updated it to reflect the newer information.
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^
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