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How come Thunderclap is fastest Spirit Gen? Why? Attack Speed is the same for all speed generators under my stats screen.
Every single spirit generator has an attack speed animation that "speeds up" your true attacks.
FoT will make you attack ~1.5 time faster than your paperdoll tells you.
If you have 1.0 APS in your stat sheet and attack with FoT, you will actually hit ~1.5 times per second.
All the spirit generators have this effect but some attack faster than others!
Is there a data for that somewhere?
As it just so happens, I spent this entire morning calculating each spirit gens attack speed modifier via Frame Rate / Video Editor!
Here are all the values, I will be updating the main thread with them soon!
Edited by Druin#1518 on 11/18/2012 1:16 PM PST
1. Updated each spirit generator with the new Attack Speed data that I have collected.
You can now view exactly how fast each hit of each generator is!
(Current Value Spreadsheet is also up to date, Proposal Spreadsheet is not)
2. Removed the link to the Proc C list because it was out-dated and no longer correct for a lot of items.
I believe my GoogleDocs Spreadsheet covers all that data and it is backed up by my personal testing so I can confirm its accuracy! :D
3. Changed some wording for the Spirit Generator entries to be more clear.
4. Reverted my suggestion for WotHF back to changing ONLY the attack speed of the first hit. This now has numerical testing to back it up and many of the spirit generators have different attack speeds for the first and second hit. This indicates that it would be fine to change only 1.
Proposed change: First hit goes from 1.18 attack speed to 1.52 attack speed.
This would change the overall APS Mod for WotHF from 1.14 to 1.25 and give it a MUCH more fluid feel.
As always, thanks for all your support guys! Keep the spirit gen related questions / comments coming!
Edited by Druin#1518 on 11/18/2012 2:16 PM PST
Druin, your proposed change to Quickening would completely !@#$ up my LpSS build and nerf it to the ground. You might not have considered us LpSS monks because well, i'm like the only LpSS monk in the whole D3 universe but still. You cant take away the 15 spirit/crit part of that rune, it's simply vital.
Edited by FuzzyWuzzy#1793 on 11/20/2012 3:34 PM PST
There would be no change to the 15 spirit per crit part of the rune.
It would simply gain a move speed buff and a teleport.
I disagree with your analysis of DR:Scattered Blows
There's 3 main things that affect SB in particular that you didn't account for. Firstly, the 3rd strike is MUCH faster to execute then the normal DR 3rd strike. This gives the chain overall higher DPS, higher spirit gen, and better mobility then the other DR runes. I haven't tested by how much, but it's very noticeable.
Second, it hits targets without aiming, and behind you. This is a functional difference, and won't affect everyone's playstyle. For example, the build i use relies extremely heavily on mobility and Dashing Strike for defense, darting from monster to monster, or behind them at just the right moment to avoid their heavy hitters. This means I'm surrounded, facing every which way during the coarse of the battle, and the monsters will be scattered much of the time and not adjacent to each other, making Thunderclap unappealing. The mechanics of DR:SB fit extremely well into my playstyle. To me this makes it worth a little raw damage loss, since I'll make up for it by hitting more targets.
Third, all of your analyses seem to only account for the DW gameplay style. I use a Daibo for the large damage range on the spirit burners. With regards to DR:SB, this means the 170% burst on the end becomes a very large hit. This is especially important since my build emphasizes strength of each attack instead of character-sheet DPS and time on target. This lets me time the chain with some burners for a very large kablam before dashing out of harm's way.
IMO this skill is amazing for certain builds (by sheer coincidence, of course, the one I use). Your proposed spirit gen buff is probably the only change this skill needs. Also, a 25 yard AOE that doesn't require aiming would be stupendously boring. I havn't done the math; it's possible that a slight damage boost to attacks 1 and 2 is called for. This would make it the basic damage rune of the DR skill, similar to mangle.
I am happy to hear about people using a non-FoT:TC spirit generator and having success!
My analysis of Scattered Blows was based almost entirely off the tooltip. I have basically never used it until tonight.
However, I just ran some tests to see what's up with this spirit gen and you are correct, it is a lot better than I was giving it credit for!
Attack speed mods:
1.62 -> 1.54 -> 1.03
This means that DR:SB has a total attack speed mod of 1.40 instead of DR's normal 1.34.
This makes DR:SB do significantly more damage than the rest of the DR runes.
Here is a spreadsheet comparison of the "besT" AoE Spirit Gens when fighting 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 monsters:
As you can see, DR:SB does more damage than Mangle, Thunderclap and Fists of Fury.
It has a higher Proc C than Mangle and all the non FoF WotHF runes.
Obviously it suffers from the third hit capping at 6 monsters but at least that isn't a SUPER common thing.
It also attacks MUCH faster than anything but Thunderclap which means it is MUCH better for mobility while doing good damage than Hands of Lighting for instance.
All in all, it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was!
Thanks for that Rhyse!
All that being said, I would still like to see it get something more. The flat damage increase is nice but for most monks Blazing Fists or FoT:TC will do more damage (depending on whether or not you are using SW:Cyclone).
Here are some ideas for small changes that would make the skill more interesting without ruining your playstyle:
1. Make the damage Arcane. I actually wanted to do this before but forgot.
The ability looks very "arcane damage" to me and, as I stated for earlier Spirit Gens I would really like to see more elemental damage and then more future +ele skill damage items.
2. Make the third hit have a chance to confuse enemies you are fighting.
I feel like this fits the name pretty well and is therefore thematically fitting and it would be a small bonus that could separate the skill from the others.
3. Make the third hit have a chance to stun.
Same as confuse but different mechanic.
4. If there is only 1 monster, the third hit double hits.
This would give you an interesting reason to separate monsters and focus 1 down because if the third hit only hits 1 monster, it does MASSIVE damage.
I would love to hear your ideas though!
Figured I'd give a +1 for the suggestions in this thread with some motivation for changes.
The graph in the first post in thread in the link below is fairly relevant to this thread, hope it's ok to link it here :)
It visualizes how build diversity compares between classes, and monk shows the least diversity by far.
Based on personal experience I can definitely attest for Thunderclap being the most powerful spirit generator by a longshot, mainly due to its high attack speed and proc rate.
Thought I have been using some other runes from the other spirit generators somewhat successfully for various combination strike builds, I have never felt that leaving thunderclap out is an option. I have tried though! But nothing comes close to it really.
So I would never exclude Thunderclap from a build and that makes every other rune useless, but some of the other generators that I find are fairly decent for complementing it are:
Deadly reach - Foresight for plain damage boost and maybe Keen Eye for mitigation, although a 4 second boost with no icon is somewhat poor.
WoHF - Blazing Fists - boosts APS and mobility, 2nd best spirit generator. Could last longer.
Crippling Wave - Breaking Wave for ubers and Rising Tide for a Cyclone Strike/TR build I've been trying out (huge spirit regen). Concussion might useful if you need the mitigation, but as with Keen Eye, the short duration makes it questionable.
These don't need all that much change IMO but I hardly see a use in the other runes other than the 8% dps boost from Combination Strike.
Hey Timmy, thanks a bunch for the support!
I pretty much agree with you on every count.
As you can see in my recommendations I barely change Breaking Wave and Blazing fists and I don't change Foresight at all.
It should be noted, that Blazing Fists is much better on paper than in reality. Because it just gives a %IAS buff, it actually is reduced in effectiveness by other IAS gear.
If you have 0% IAS and get 15% IAS you gained (1.15/1.00)-1 = 15% more IAS.
If you have 50% IAS and get 15% IAS you gained (1.65/1.50)-1 = 10% more IAS.
This means that Blazing Fists is only giving you a 10% increase in effect because you already had some IAS.
Most monks have some IAS on their gear and many have >50 because of duel wield so that makes Blazing Fists worse than it seems.
I do agree that the Spirit Gens you listed are some of the only "viable" alternatives to Thunderclap.
Some others are: Static Charge (technically higher dps than TC), Concussion (best tanking spirit gen hands down), Bounding Light (arguably better Proc C than TC when mobs are in certain configurations), Rising Tide (best AoE spirit generation), Scattered Blows (really high damage if that is all you want).
I think you might be on to something. The playstyle SB is best suited for is some kind of mobility-based brawling style, since it gives you a mix of range, short animations and power. Adding a CC proc to the 3rd strike would fit into this perfectly. Which one is best is debateable- I think a knockdown or very short knockback would be great, because it helps keep the mobs from surrounding you so you can keep them in front where your max damage will be.
SB is already lightning damage (on the 3rd strike), so I'm not sure where you're getting at with #1. Unless you mean change strike 1 and 2 also, which I agree would be interesting with the gear you mentioned.
#4 would probably be the best overall option, since it would work with my "hit(VERY HARD) and run" approach, but would apply just as well to other build styles as well. SB is already the "vanilla DPS rune" of DR, kind of like Mangle is for CW. This change would make SB a goto rune for anyone that likes DR for the range but feels pushed into the other skills for damage reasons. This makes SB a very attractive AOE skill that doesn't suffer on bosses. Making the 3rd hit be a guarunteed crit vs single targets is an alternative, in case the DPS numbers end up too high; this also gives some interesting build synergies. The downside is it strikes me as a little too straightforward of an upgrade; on the other hand, it's already a very unique skill so that may be ok. Also, it would give the occasional Very Large Number, which is fun as well.
Overall I think #4 is probably the best suggestion and would bring a lot more to multiple builds, without weakening it's current strengths. It should be somewhere below the pure-melee skills in raw single target DPS (because of the range and AOE aspects), but high enough to directly compete. I'm not math oriented enough to make a final suggestion, but I think you're definitely onto something.
Okay, my bad on the arcane thing. As I said, I have had very little experience with DR:SB so I completely missed the "third hit does lightning damage" effect.
In light of that, I would recommend changing the first and second hit to lighting as well!
I am glad you like my suggestions for the effects, I agree that #4 is the most fitting for overall effect and I also agree it is the least interesting.
I think, as you mentioned, that SB is already an interesting enough rune that having a non-interesting secondary effect would probably be okay.
I am going to update my suggestion for SB to reflect this discussion and credit you! :D
Note: The idea of a guaranteed crit makes sense but I feel like our class is already immensely crit-centric so I would prefer to see the more generally helpful "double-hit" to the more Cylcone centered "100% crit" option.
1. Changed Lighting Flash's proposed bonus from 40% dodge to 50% dodge.
They removed Dodge's ability to reduce reflects damage so it is now VERY clearly a worse mitigation stat than Armor and Keen Eye already gives 50% armor ... poor Lighting Flash.
2. I made comprehensive changes to DR:Scattered Blows as per my discussion with Rhyse.
The most important thing to note is that the third hit of SB is actually faster than the normal DR third hit which makes SB a VERY high DPS spirit gen. (I have updated the spirit gen spreadsheet to reflect this)
In light of this new information, and my discussion with Rhyse, I have changed my suggestion for SB to:
Damage type of first and second hit changes to Lighting Damage.
This fits thematically with the lightning damage on the third hit and having more elemental damage spirit gens is just good. WKL only effecting FoT? So bad!
Added an effect that allows the third strike of SB to "Double hit" when there is only 1 monster present.
This effect would make SB the highest possible single target damage Spirit Gen in the game but only when there is ONLY 1 monster to hit.
I think this change will give a unique "feel" to a spirit gen that is already somewhat strong on its own merits. Plus it would be neat to see if someone could make an effective "isolate and destroy" build with LTK or something like that!
3. Increased the buff duration on Foresight to 60s.
I previously made no changes to foresight but I have recently been experimenting with builds that don't rely on spirit gens to do damage and DR:Foresight is a good choice because of the buff. However, it is silly to have to keep doing SUPER SLOW DR combos just to keep the buff up when you want to be TR'ing / spamming bells ... ect. The increased duration would help a build-type that is in desperate need of help!
As always, thanks for all your support monk community! :D
Bumping this thread just to add a little anecdotal evidence, but mainly because it's a really good source of information which might be of some use to someone as the 1.07 changes hit. I'm not sure what, if any, effect changing the spirit spenders will have on the choice of spirit generators, but it's certainly conceivable that new generating options might open up. And if that's the case, I'm not aware of any better start point than this thread.
As for my anecdotal evidence, it's all related to to WotHF. I've been using Fists of Fury forever. After re-reading this thread today, I gave Hands of Lighting and Blazing Fists a run based upon Strikerdude's and Druin's work.
Key Point: I play self found, so I'm very under-geared compared to many monks. My key stats are that I have about 50,000 dps, 800 LoH, 35 crit chance, 1.5 attacks per second, and 230 crit damage.
Hands of Lightning: This felt extremely weak at my gear level. Given Strikerdude's testing showing that it scales well, perhaps it's not terribly surprising that it wouldn't benefit the undergeared. The damage increase over Fist of Fury felt negligible. I missed the dash, although I could live with that. The biggest difference was the proc. The difference in Life on Hit was marked. Even on relatively simple content (Act 1 Cemetery tombs, MP5, which I cruise through normally) I found myself low on health frequently.
Blazing Fists: A definite improvement over Hands of Lightning. The increased attack speed was noticeable both respect to playstyle and damage. The loss of dash was almost entirely negated by the increased movement speed. However, the loss of the LoH proc was still there, although not nearly as bad as with Hands of Lightning.
So my conclusion is that the extra proc and dash of Fist of Fury is definitely worth a lot, at least at my gear level. For a Life on Hit based monk, like me, that extra proc just makes a world of difference in survivability, and more than makes up for any dps loss. If and when I get enough dps/gear for a life steal set-up I might give Blazing Fist and Hands of Lightning another go, but so long as I'm reliant on LoH I'll definitely be sticking with Fist of Fury.
Ah, it is nice to see this thread back on the first page if only for a little while! Thanks Overg!
Fists of Fury has almost 2x the Proc C of Hands of Lighting so it isn't surprising that you felt the effects strongly.
FoF actually has the highest Proc C of any generator in the game when fighting >1 monster (Thunderclap wins against 1 mob).
However, because the DoT from FoF can't crit, 50% of its amazing Proc C is wasted when you are trying to proc Cyclones from SW:Cyclone (which require a crit). Because SW:Cyclone is the #1 skill in the whole world ever for DPS monks at this time, FoF is currently HIGHLY under-rates.
This Ideas are aweome, would be so much fun. Luckily, some day we will see something like this happend. Druin you and your guides are the main reason why im playing again, keep it up!
Edited by Sann92#2181 on 1/18/2013 9:34 AM PST
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