Diablo® III

Torchlight 2 is good.

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So, Torchlight 2, most overrated game at the moment? Yeah, I think so.
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I like D3 and i also start to slowly like TL2.

BOTH games have pros and cons - i dont think we need to re-iterate them.

For example, i *do* actually think that the AH and economy part of D3 adds something interesting to D3 since i enjoy looking at the AH and buying/selling gear. This is NOT something i consider bad.

TL2, despite the weak graphics, has some very nice good things to it, for example the pets, skills and of course the loot.

I WISH that both games, D3 and TL2, benefit from each other and that BOTH games take this "competition" as a reason to become better! Because we, as gamers, will profit if both games become better.
Edited by Flexyana#1496 on 9/24/2012 8:34 AM PDT
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I didnt read through all 9 pages, but you people are pissing me off and making crappy arguments. You cant compare end game Diablo to early game TL2. Its not a fair, nor valid comparison. I refuse to believe that some of you never found gear while leveling unless you went to the AH every time you leveled. And you were having problem vs packs and getting 1 shot in normal, then you just plain are terrible at gaming.
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09/22/2012 08:48 PMPosted by MountainMan
In the course of all my hours playing D3 I never once found any gear to use as a replacement for something I was already using. I never FOUND any upgrades through all levels. All my upgrades were bought from the AH.

Either you're full of crap, or you're extraordinarily impatient and spend more time browsing the auction house rather than actually playing the game.

Look, people might complain that Diablo 3 is too stingy, but Torchlight 2 is overly generous, like an all-you-can-eat dessert bar. It's fun at first, but it very quickly becomes too much of a good thing and you quickly burn out on it. Personally, I prefer Diablo 3 because getting that great drop remains an exciting experience even after a couple hundred hours of play.


Yeah, well some of us have outside lives and cant devote that level of time to playing.

I have found very few of my own upgrades since 60. The best thing I found was a nasty !@# source that I accidentally salvaged. . . The person you replied to made a very valid point...

The staying power that surrounded D1 and D2 was searching for an upgrade. That's what kept people grinding. When people have to find something, then sell it, then buy their upgrade from the AH, they get frustrated at quit.

But whatever. There are fanboys on both sides of this argument. I like to think I sit comfortably in the middle. I am going to try torchlight, but if the combat is "broken" I won't be able to play it.
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I have played TL and I do think that it's a pretty good game. The comparisons to d3 that ppl are making at this point are completely ridiculous though. Most ppl posting here have probably played <10h of TL. Of course you find interesting items, upgrades, new awesome skills, new areas, new mob types, new bosses, new gems, new enchanters... all the time. You also found a ton of new fun stuff during your first 10h of d3.
The problem with d3 is that by now most ppl have gotten close to BiS gear, have optimized their builds and farming routes, have figured out what items might be worth something and what's not worth picking up and have done so many act3 runs that they can run through most areas with their eyes closed. Of course at that point the game isn't as exciting as during your first 10h of gameplay.
I'm not saying the arguments ppl are bringing for TL aren't valid, but there's simply nobody here who can know if they are valid or not. Go play 500h of TL and then come back here and we can discuss which game has a more interesting end game.
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I have played TL and I do think that it's a pretty good game. The comparisons to d3 that ppl are making at this point are completely ridiculous though. Most ppl posting here have probably played <10h of TL. Of course you find interesting items, upgrades, new awesome skills, new areas, new mob types, new bosses, new gems, new enchanters... all the time. You also found a ton of new fun stuff during your first 10h of d3.


I almost quit D3 early on - they very nearly lost me at:
"While you were on your hero's errand, I've captured all three sword pieces, AND your friends!"
Just terrible writing. Not to wax poetic about TL2's story - I'll be honest, I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what is going on with TL2's story. None. However, mostly I don't care and it isn't infuriating me the way D3's story did.

Just trying to be fair here - I understood D3's story. It has big problems (How'd the sword piece get into the ancient nephalem vault anyway? How'd maghda get in there?) but it is understandable. TL2 needs a better intro, because I literally don't understand what in the world is going on. I just know I have to stop "the alchemist" from "doing something terrible." OK.

The problem with d3 is that by now most ppl have gotten close to BiS gear, have optimized their builds and farming routes, have figured out what items might be worth something and what's not worth picking up and have done so many act3 runs that they can run through most areas with their eyes closed. Of course at that point the game isn't as exciting as during your first 10h of gameplay.


There were many, many threads on D3's problems that were obvious in the first 10h of gameplay. People have mostly given up on these threads though because:
1. It is fairly obvious the devs don't care or don't agree about this stuff
2. Some of it is so inherent in the game at this point that they really can't fix it.
3. You go through the early part of the game so fast that time spent improving it is wasted.
4. The flaws in the endgame were much worse, especially at first.
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Im so sick of people bagging out games being "cartoonish". You play computer games! You play female elves and talking cows and goblins! Soon pandas!


These people are hypocrites. Cain was killed by a butterfly. To say that another game is more "cartoonish" or "childish" is ridiculous.
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09/24/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Sparkzen
just know I have to stop "the alchemist" from "doing something terrible.

hahahah +1
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Well there are two questions we can ask about the two games:
1)Which game is more fun while playing through it for the first time?
2)Which game has a more fun long-term endgame?

I doubt anyone can answer the second question yet. We could have a reasonable discussion about the first one, but I personally don't think I can really give an unbiased statement about my first impression of diablo, mainly because it's four months back and I have played the game way too much since then. The only thing I can say is it was definitively a lot of fun even though it had some flaws. And exactly the same is true for TL too (Why for ****'s sake am I not allowed to respec my character? Am I really supposed to play a permanently gimped character/delete my character and make a new one just because I did some noobish decisions at level 5????)
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09/24/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Vaanx
just know I have to stop "the alchemist" from "doing something terrible.

hahahah +1


BTW, I don't really mean to bag on either game for the story - I don't care about the story. Seriously. One of my favorite games of all time, Doom, the story is contained in a readme.txt file that shipped with the game 3.5" disc: "Ur a space marine on mars where UAC works on a teleporter, &*(% happens, ur pals turn 2 zombies and demons from hell spew out. go kill."

Clearly I am NOT difficult to please in this regard! D3's story made me actively angry in several places, partly because it was so in your face and difficult to ignore, bad, and there are just so few other things to distract you from it.

So far, at least, there's enough stuff that's "ooh shiny" in TL2 that I don't notice or care that I really, honestly, have no friggin' clue what it is all about. I think I'm helping magic elf people, or robots, or something? I'm so confused. (But entertained!) I'm sure I'm helping against some bad guys - I don't know WHY they are bad guys, mostly, except they shoot at me, so clearly they need killin...
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09/24/2012 12:07 PMPosted by regenwurm
And exactly the same is true for TL too (Why for ****'s sake am I not allowed to respec my character? Am I really supposed to play a permanently gimped character/delete my character and make a new one just because I did some noobish decisions at level 5????)


Although D2 fans really like the "no respec thing" (you can't change your attribute points, but you can respec your last 3 talent points), I suspect I agree with you, and the replayability through re-levelling may not be for everyone. I guess we'll see how it works out.

D3's levelling never felt very progressive to me. TL2's does - but if you manage to find the really unfun, underpowered build (there is bound to be one), it kind of sucks to be stuck with it. The bad thing is the mechanics of the game are not that transparent, at least to me, so the chances of that happening are worrisome.

On the other hand, you get lots of points to throw around, so unless you genuinely just assign them randomly, you may well be pretty OK in the game regardless.
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Hey guys, I have a lv19 embermage in Torchlight 2 and apparently I can just use a lv1 active spell with maxed passives to beat the game. In the hardest difficulty. :3
Edited by Sauceror#1782 on 9/24/2012 12:27 PM PDT
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09/24/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Sparkzen
if you manage to find the really unfun, underpowered build (there is bound to be one), it kind of sucks to be stuck with it. The bad thing is the mechanics of the game are not that transparent, at least to me, so the chances of that happening are worrisome.

Exactly my point. I tend to be a huge perfectionist when it comes to character optimization so that I have actually not spent a single skill points until level ~30 , just because I wanted to figure out a bit how the game works before making any permanent decisions.

09/24/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Sauceror
Hey guys, I have a lv19 embermage in Torchlight 2 and apparently I can just use a lv1 active spell with maxed passives to beat the game. In the hardest difficulty. :3

Let me guess it; Does it involve Prismatic Bolts in some way? :)
Edited by regenwurm#2953 on 9/24/2012 12:44 PM PDT
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09/24/2012 12:44 PMPosted by regenwurm
if you manage to find the really unfun, underpowered build (there is bound to be one), it kind of sucks to be stuck with it. The bad thing is the mechanics of the game are not that transparent, at least to me, so the chances of that happening are worrisome.

Exactly my point. I tend to be a huge perfectionist when it comes to character optimization so that I have actually not spent a single skill points until level ~30 , just because I wanted to figure out a bit how the game works before making any permanent decisions.


I completely understand where you are coming from. So this may well be one thing D3 did right, and the compromise of NV forcing some build permanence is really clever. UNFORTUNATELY, the pile of stuff the D3 devs got wrong is pretty bad:
- there is NO sense of character progression in D3 except gear. NONE.
- the map generation is terrible. There is no point in exploring in this game.
- the quest system is terrible. I can't believe a company that created WoW allowed this out the door. (WoW's not my game, but the quest system in it is great.)
- there is a ton of overdeveloped / underdeveloped stuff in the game. "we couldn't figure out how to make elemental damage interesting on weapons, so we just kind of removed it, but left it there partially..."
- the UI is only intuitive because you've been playing it for 200 hours.
- the itemization system is BORING. "main-stat / vit / ias / crit chance / crit damage / choose flavor"
- the crafting system is terrible
- the gemming system is terrible - it is limited and boring. Basically one type of gem is worthwhile for every character, every build
- the game was really badly tuned at launch
- the total amount of content in the game is really quite small.

Combat is fun in this game, except when you:
- deal with server lag
- untuned affix / monster combos (thanks blizz for fixing much of this, btw)
- deal with clipping bugs and stuff that's just broken
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09/24/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Kevan
If a game cannot capture my attention after 30mins, I quit . . . simple.


Unfortunately, many games now have a leveling system. This means slow progression and starting off with very, very simple characters. Guess what, a lot of people quit D3 after 30min. Including my brother.

The funny thing is, my brother will go on about how dumb the game is and say stuff he has no idea about. If you don't give it a good go, you won't know. D3 has some fun combat and its worth a look. But overall, the game is a big fail on so many area's.

TL2 is the same. Starting off with a new character, it all seems like the "same old thing". But after a few dungeons, leveling up your skills a few times the game starts to shine.

Get 2 characters to level 15. Its super fast to do then make up your mind.

I swear, most gamers wouldn't stick to the game DayZ. No patients.
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Posts: 1,194
09/23/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Sharidori
You'd rather gloat in the D3 forums than play TL2?


This is D3 end game ^_^


+1

D3 is a web game
you play it in the forums
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I now own both.

TL2 gets a bunch of things right that D3 does not:
Stats - forget main stat. All stats are important for characters (dex gives you dodge and crit chance, for example)

Gear - yeah, I'm only level 17. But still the amount of gear varies greatly and I find the sheer number of different affixes is already far in excess of what D3 offers. Mana Steal anyone? Pet damage?

Builds - you pick ONE. Leveling you character and assigning attribute/skill points has consequences.

Quests/World. TL2 is bigger and more varied. It's easy to see this even in the first act. I got lost it was so big.

You can dodge things in TL2.

Things that D3 does better:
More natural progression of enemies. And the enemies have more definite attack patterns.

Introducing the skill system. D3 does a great job of walking you through skills and runes.
There are plenty of folks on the runic boards that just do not understand the way skills work....myself included. TL2 is less defined AND more risky since choices are permanent. I have significant unassigned skill points and attribute points for this reason.

Also combat seems smoother in D3. It's more herky jerky in TL2.

Still open: Difficulty. Inferno is just nutty. Act 1 you can sort of prepare yourself for. Act 2 you really cannot. The first time you fight a fire construct (the guys who shoot the molten pools underneath you), or get hit by mini bees or get stuck in Act 3 molten...surprised, and not in a good way. Inferno does not scale well. Damage taken does not scale well. So called "spike" damage is a big problem in inferno.

However, TL2 might be just as bad. People on the hardest mode in TL2 are complaining about getting 1 shotted in Act 1. (I started off on "normal" so I'm ok so far...)
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09/22/2012 08:28 PMPosted by jpar
TL2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> D3


If your 12 years old and still watch cartoons
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I gotta say I've been playing an ember mage as my first toon.. I'm having so much fun.

People are saying the graphics aren't that good, but seeing as how the game is fully mod friendly those can and will be improved.

I've noticed the physics could use some tune ups but again, a mod will eventually polish that.

This game, if i may be honest, beats D3 by a long shot for replay value and pure FUN. I can see myself playing TL2 for a long time to come. I'm excited to see what the mod community will offer.

To say the least, even in TL2's current state it is so much fun, rewarding and addictive. I love it and recommend it to anyone.

I do want to note though, I haven't given up on D3. This game still has alot of potential to be really good. Sadly though It's going to take a while. Maybe even up until an expansion to fix all the dreadful problems with the game. In any case I'm willing to wait it out and see if it can be totally redeemed. I'm hoping so, but in atm TL2 has D3 beat in so many ways. That's just my honest opinion.
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TL2 is fantastice. D3 can't hold a candle to it.


On combat it most certainly can. In fact, TL2 can't hold a candle to D3 in that regard.

Don't wax poetic about something that's clearly flawed. People here are so jaded by item drops, they're praising TL2 for that one single aspect over D3 when in fact TL2 has glaring issues with combat and overall polish.


idk how you have come to that conclusion...

im in the exact opposite boat. TL2s combat is FAR superior...

you can actually dodge melee swings - enough said (not being able to is esp punishing to the WD, who revolves around kiting)

both games however lack one important thing: free casting. yea, you can aim in front of or behind an enemy and its free casting, but this only works on spells that shoot in a line. take meteor, acid cloud, firebomb etc as an example on a group of the cultists in a circle chanting. you want to ai in the middle of them so 1 spell hits them all but you cant, because you end up selecting a guy and the spell centers around him, which ends up making you miss half or more of the cultists. not that big of a problem, but when d2 had 2 ways to get around this, and during beta, i warned them of the game needing this (and reaching 2 and a half full threads (26p) and all being highly rated) and the request from us all got ignored. its not worth their time to make the game better

the loot is more dynamic and fun inducing. by level 6 in TL2 i already liked the gear stats more. each main stat is valuable to every class, there are tons of interesting procs, and interesting affixes. build inducing stats, like +35% fire dmg. i already have a staff with 2 procs on it, gems with procs on it etc... the loot wins in every way (not rly combat but...)

6 spells vs 13 spells on the bar. do i really need to explain? i still remember jay wilsons explanation as to why they went from 7 to 6 skills, and it was bc it made making a build never quite complete, to make harder decisions. yeah, well, it did do that. however our builds never being quite complete also makes every build feel underwhelming and always feels like its missing something / needs work. with 13 skills, you can do what you want freely. oh, and did i mention that my longest cooldown in TL2 is 2 seconds? no, i didnt. my longest cooldown in TL2 is 2 seconds - and i have a no cooldown tele

oh, also, TL2 IS MODDABLE. which means, anything we dont like about the game we can change. could add our own ideas for a character, could add new modes, new spells... w.e you want, you can have

the monsters also have more dynamic spells to shoot at us, and once again, im very early in the game

d3 does have some superior aspects to it... the graphics are better, and there is 1m character (excluding the infinite characters you could make through modding, not to mention you could make the d3 chars in TL2). there are more spells in d3 as well if you include runes (also excluding modding, and the scroll spells). it also has the lore being diablo, LOL JK... lore was ruined by this game. ive read all the books and loved them, but im STILL 1/3rd done with the newest one but have no interest in finishing it bc the lore died

about me: d2 was the game of my life. you dont need to know anything else

id like to hear how you think d3s combat is better tho

some food for thought: the dev team thinks its a good idea to have the monsters melee swings hit when they should miss, but really, who is ever going to say they like that about the game? you would only hear the opposite. also the reasoning behind them having it that way is laughable (really its sad that their logic is so bad on the subject). its so people dont just run past monsters and skip content to get to end game. well, thats moot for several reasons

1: we can do it anyway, its called corpse hopping

2: it doesnt matter - either, you skip the content, get ur bum handed to you, and you hafta go back, or you skip ahead, and succeed. when you do so and succeed its still moot. why? bc if you can kill things after skipping stuff, thats where your character progression is anyway.

so basically they ruined the combat for nothing

edit: i forgot to mention how scarce the monsters are in d3. they should literally triple the amount of monsters there are in every pack, and make packs more diverse. balance as needed (not to mention the small zones, lack of randomization in the zones, lack of randomization in what mobs show up etc

edit2: also, 6p max nuff said
Edited by Honor#1370 on 9/24/2012 3:58 PM PDT
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