Diablo® III

Torchlight 2 vs D3: Itemization & Skills

Diablo 3 characters are just mannequins.
Remove the gear and gold from the best character in the world in Diablo 3, and that level 60 barbarian will have to farm normal / early nightmare and then progress up towards late nightmare and then early hell...
where he will have to farm for 100 hours before he can touch act 2 inferno.

Equip the gear removed from that barbarian on the normal mode Decard Cain, and Decard Cain would singlehandedly wipe out inferno even with the basic attack and identify all as his only attacks.

THAT, crosstdressers, FBI-agents and gentlemen, is why Diablo 3 itemization and characters are inherently broken.

It's not only that items don't drop and that they sold the game before it was ready as a cash grab and included an RMAH to milk the customer base further and test out the system for further games -- they ALSO completely ruined your character, the very BASE of the roleplaying element in the roleplaying game.

After 3 hours in Torchlight 2, I feel more attached to my character than I did in 50 hours with my Monk.
Because I actually have to give her identity and make choices.
She's not just a doll that I dress up -- I also have to define her abilities and attributes.

I actually have to CHOOSE what gear to use in Torchlight 2, three hours into the game, as opposed to pick the gear with the best damage/defense balance with primary attribute + vitality + critical chance + critical damage + all resistances, and in the case of the monk -- one specific single element.

And by the gods -- when I choose gear and skills in Torchlight 2 it doesn't feel like I'm trying to find the lesser evil or the best skill.

There's actual BALANCE between skills and items.
...

THEN comes the fact that itemization is FUN in Torchlight 2.
I can choose between a wand that deals 80 damage per hit, or a melee staff that deals 120 damage per hit.

Hits actually have to connect to deal damage.
My character actually USE the WEAPON to swing and deal damage, unlike my monk and wizards who put the weapon on their backs before attacking, still using the weapon damage for deciding skill damage in Diablo 3 -- just to sell more weapons.

Then on top of the fact that I can actually USE my weapons effectively past level 3 by actually using the weapon without a skill, I actually have access to skills that ARE NOT completely and totally depended upon my primary weapon:
My CHARACTER has power in addition to his gear.
That power actually GROWS each level.

My character isn't merely allowed to use better gear -- she also INCREASE, actually INCREASE in power!

Damage for some skills are based on the SKILL and character level and NOT THE WEAPON damage.
Thank the effing GODS..!

Funny thing is, Torchlight 2 has improved in this area, while Diablo 3 has regressed.
Torchlight 1 had damage based on weapon, just like Hellgate London and Diablo 3.
Diablo 2 had damage based on weapon AND/OR skill level, just like Torchlight 2.

Damage / defense + primary attribute + vitality + critical chance + critical damage + all resistances.
THAT is no fun.
Not at all what so ever.

1% chance to maybe stun someone for what may seem like almost 1 second.
THAT IS NOT FUN AT ALL.

In Torchlight 2, there's actually a chance that the item effects actually do something that truly affects the outcome of combat.
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After playing TL2 for about 25 or so hours, I agree. The thing that blew me away most about TL2 is the combat mechanics. It feels much more like a MOBA game than your standard ARPG as far as the skill required to play well and have success. You don't really start to realize how good it truly is until you get a decent number of levels and have all these options as to what skills to use and how you want to build your "kit". The charge meter is a brilliant mechanic that adds a ton of depth to the combat also. Sadly, now that I've had a taste of the TL2 loot gameplay, I'm not sure if D3 is capable of being fixed, as it would require complete itemization overhaul to even be competitive.
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After 3 hours in Torchlight 2, I feel more attached to my character than I did in 50 hours with my Monk.
Because I actually have to give her identity and make choices.
She's not just a doll that I dress up -- I also have to define her abilities and attributes.


And if you don't like the choices you make, a few console commands will easily set things the way you want them.
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Logged in specifically to add a +1.

This is spot on, bang on the head of the nail, exactly the tangible difference between Diablo 3 & Torchlight 2.

I have literally not spent any stat points or skill points after leveling up 2-3 times in a row, simply because I am going to have to commit to a direction for my character and I want to make sure I pick the best skillset for MY preferred playstyle...and I love it.

Also, not to mention that the "endgame" involves farming a bunch of maps which have special modifiers...for instance "you attack & cast 50% slower, but deal 200% dmg (and get 15% mf free)" and so many more like that. And each map has a boss with unique abilities and tilesets/layouts/look/feel...its so refreshing.

And the game's soundtrack is beautiful. Just simply beautiful.

Listen to this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nf2y-JF7Rg&t=1m37s
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09/24/2012 06:22 AMPosted by Atterana
I have literally not spent any stat points or skill points after leveling up 2-3 times in a row, simply because I am going to have to commit to a direction for my character and I want to make sure I pick the best skillset for MY preferred playstyle...and I love it.


You could always just reset your stats if you feel you got it wrong.

1. Find the settings.txt for Torchlight 2
2. Find where is says "console:0", change it to "console:1" and save the settings. Console commands are now enabled.
3. Hit the 'Insert' key to bring up the console
4. Using the following commands to reset what you need to:

RESETSTATS-resets the stats
RESETSKILLS-resets your skills
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09/24/2012 06:27 AMPosted by Strawhat
I have literally not spent any stat points or skill points after leveling up 2-3 times in a row, simply because I am going to have to commit to a direction for my character and I want to make sure I pick the best skillset for MY preferred playstyle...and I love it.


You could always just reset your stats if you feel you got it wrong.

1. Find the settings.txt for Torchlight 2
2. Find where is says "console:0", change it to "console:1" and save the settings. Console commands are now enabled.
3. Hit the 'Insert' key to bring up the console
4. Using the following commands to reset what you need to:

RESETSTATS-resets the stats
RESETSKILLS-resets your skills


Doing that marks your character as a "cheater" to other players and prevents you from joining certain "legit only" multiplayer games (so much for all the kids whining about how TL2 is going to be hacked until it's unplayable in multiplayer!).

Besides. I like the agonizing over every small decision. It makes the character that much more fulfilling in the long run. I just finished a run through of the campaign on a Berserker (finished at level 53). I am now doing a quick run of a few mapwork levels to get a feel for the random farming and looting to see how that is before I have to make yet another decision!

Make New Game+ with same character?
Start fresh in Elite difficulty? (Inferno equivalent of TL2)
Try a different class?

Personally...I'm leaning towards trying out the Embermage now...I have so many awesome uniques piled up in the Stash that if I make an Embermage she will be twinked to the point of OPness.

See, this is why I like this game. Diablo 3 is just...urgh, comparatively.
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09/24/2012 06:33 AMPosted by Atterana
Doing that marks your character as a "cheater" to other players and prevents you from joining certain "legit only" multiplayer games (so much for all the kids whining about how TL2 is going to be hacked until it's unplayable in multiplayer!).


I thought it only marks you as a cheater for specific console commands. Regardless, wouldn't it be as simple as finding the flag that marks you as a cheater and setting it to false?

09/24/2012 06:33 AMPosted by Atterana
Besides. I like the agonizing over every small decision. It makes the character that much more fulfilling in the long run.


Personally I've never liked it, it urges people to use cookie-cutter builds and stifles experimentation. Too often with rpgs that have skill trees and permanent decisions, I've seen people become frustrated because halfway through the game they find out their build is messed up and the only ways they could have known that would be through checking third-party resources or trial by elimination. For PC users, I could always console people playing the likes of Dragon Age or Oblivion with "At least you can use a mod that resets your skills if you really messed up".

Starting all over and rerolling for the sake of rerolling is just... ugh.
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09/24/2012 06:44 AMPosted by Strawhat
Starting all over and rerolling for the sake of rerolling is just... ugh.


That's one of the biggest selling points of Torchlight for many people playing the game. And if I can point out, that is what contributed significantly to the replayability of Diablo 2. It's not like this is cutting edge stuff here. It's ARPG 101.
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09/24/2012 06:51 AMPosted by Atterana
That's one of the biggest selling points of Torchlight for many people playing the game. And if I can point out, that is what contributed significantly to the replayability of Diablo 2. It's not like this is cutting edge stuff here. It's ARPG 101.


I realize it caters to a niche group of powergamers and I'm glad Torchlight provides that option.

Though now that I think about it, can't you just roll a test character that you use to cheat and test out builds, and then after you've got the skills down the way you like them you can use then copy that same build with your legitimate character? I guess I don't see the purpose of saving your point, just roll a second character, enable console commands, set your character to max level, play around with the skills, and once you have a build you want write it down and copy it on your main.
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You can. And thats the beauty of an open system like Torchlight 2. Do whatever you want. Runic Games isn't breathing down your neck, looking over your shoulder and saying "HEY! YOU! STOP MELEE'ING ON YOUR EMBERMAGE! That's a ranged class! *incoming nerfs*"
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09/24/2012 07:03 AMPosted by Atterana
You can. And thats the beauty of an open system like Torchlight 2.


So why are you struggling over choosing where your skills have to go and leveling up your main without spending those points? Make a test character, cheat, finalize a build and then stick with it.
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sword/board fire embermage with vit and str and bit of focus....try it ... will thank me...here's a guide link :

http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=33428&sid=8ba90ae1528101c1d79764cb540a5143
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So why are you struggling over choosing where your skills have to go and leveling up your main without spending those points? Make a test character, cheat, finalize a build and then stick with it.


Because I can? Because I'm a nerd who loves making meaningful choices? Because "cheating" takes away from my satisfaction of playing the game and developing a character the way I want to? It's not paralysing me or crippling me or adversely affecting my gameplay...it's enhancing the importance of my character.

Diablo 3 never did that. I like it that way. And a LOT of other people do too.

And I neglected to mention, a lot of times the combat is so fast paced & immersive that when you get going, its easy to level up a couple times without wanting to break your speed & rhythm...

The game is so much more superior to Diablo 3, it's hard to even make a comparison in terms that D3 players would grasp. All they see is "omg lol cartoony graphics". Their loss!
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09/24/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Strawhat
I realize it caters to a niche group of powergamers and I'm glad Torchlight provides that option.


Based on the success of Diablo II, it's probably bigger than a "niche." I'm not sure it's power gamers, either. I think it's for those who like to experiment with characters, make decisions, and build something. You can probably find noobs in the group, as well as power gamers.

Anyway, I'm glad you have a game that appeals to you, also. I'm sad it's called Diablo, though. That name is pretty special.
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09/24/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Jeger
Based on the success of Diablo II, it's probably bigger than a "niche."


The majority of those who bought Diablo 2 didn't stick around for years rerolling toons over and over, so no, I stand by my statement. It was indeed a small niche that stuck around with D2 long after most gamers got bored with Diablo 2 and moved on.

09/24/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Jeger
I'm not sure it's power gamers, either. I think it's for those who like to experiment with characters, make decisions, and build something.


Anyone who focuses on min-maxing would be labeled as a powergamer. The term came from tabletop rpgs where certain players would be more interested in making their characters as powerful as possible and rolling that perfect character as opposed to immersing themself in the roleplay.

09/24/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Jeger
Anyway, I'm glad you have a game that appeals to you, also. I'm sad it's called Diablo, though. That name is pretty special.


Honestly I think aRPG gamers make too much out of Diablo 2 nostalgia. It was fun for one of those early games that had free multiplayer and was popular, but it wasn't even the best RPG of the year when it came out.
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TL2's item system is the same as D3's. Of course there's emphasis on attributes in TL2. It's the most important stat apart from weapon DPS.

Strength increases the DPS of all physical damage by a %. Focus increases the DPS of all spell damage by a %. Just like primary stats in D3.

Yes, you can play suboptimally, but you can do that in D3 too. It's just easier in TL2 because the game is easier overall.

Here's the D3 complaints infographic. Let's go through this point by point: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

1. If Andy's Visage dropped in TL2 it will only be optimal for an outlander (maybe). Dex is a pretty bad stat in TL2.

2. Just like D3, DPS is the only thing that matters because most spells scale off of it.

3. All level 40-50 legendaries will be replaced by higher level blues and greens, say level 60ish, like in D3.

4. There are no +skill attributes in TL2.

5. Yes, because of all of the above.

End the hypocrisy. It's mostly the same item system.
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TL2's item system is the same as D3's. Of course there's emphasis on attributes in TL2. It's the most important stat apart from weapon DPS.

Strength increases the DPS of all physical damage by a %. Focus increases the DPS of all spell damage by a %. Just like primary stats in D3.

Yes, you can play suboptimally, but you can do that in D3 too. It's just easier in TL2 because the game is easier overall.

Here's the D3 complaints infographic. Let's go through this point by point: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

1. If Andy's Visage dropped in TL2 it will only be optimal for an outlander (maybe). Dex is a pretty bad stat in TL2.

2. Just like D3, DPS is the only thing that matters because most spells scale off of it.

3. All level 40-50 legendaries will be replaced by higher level blues and greens, say level 60ish, like in D3.

4. There are no +skill attributes in TL2.

5. Yes, because of all of the above.

End the hypocrisy. It's mostly the same item system.


They're the same like how tetris and mario are the same thing. THEY'RE VIDEO GAMES HEY?
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Honestly I think aRPG gamers make too much out of Diablo 2 nostalgia. It was fun for one of those early games that had free multiplayer and was popular, but it wasn't even the best RPG of the year when it came out.


It was the most FUN rpg contained in one single box, and it exploded with Lord of Destruction.

It is the game in the world I have played the most.

Diablo 2's strength was in it's diversity and depth.
Diverse classes.
Diverse acts.
Diverse endgame.
The story each NPC contributes to which absolutely nobody in the world took the time to listen to because it's not forced on you... Hundred of voice-acted lines of story which have been ignored by the players, contributing to the RUMOR that Diablo's story wasn't good.
The NPCs work behind the scenes.
Drognan and Cain do not randomly happen to help you -- they research stuff.
They can tell you about their research.

Bowazon.
She uses a bow.
It fires arrows.
In all it's simplicity, the Amazon is the best RPG character I have ever played in my life.
Sadly, I just discovered her this summer. I had one in singleplayer in 2004, but I never played past Baal in Nightmare.
Power and speed, but low health.

Guided arrow vs single targets.
Strafe vs few targets.
Multishot vs many targets.
Magic arrow when I'm out of arrows or agains physical immunes.
Low level valkyrie for tanking and as a decoy.

My second bowazon is a magezon:
Cold Arrow
Frozen Arrow
Fire Arrow
Exploding Arrow

I bet the Amazon class alone has more build and item diversity than ALL the Diablo 3 classes combined.

Shall we count?

Strafezon
Multizon
Hybrid
Plaguezon
Furyzon
Jabazon/Meleezon
Frostmaiden
Magezon
Bearzon

Strafezon gearing paths:
-Weapon
*Crossbow; Upgraded Buriza or Faith Colossus Crossbow or rare gorgon or colossus crossbows
*Bow; Windforce, Witchwild String, Goldstrike Arch or Faith Grand Matron Bow or Breath of the Dying Crusader or Hydra bow -- or rare Diamond, Ward, Crusader, Shadow, Hydra or Grand Matron bow
-Helm:
*Sockets: Giant Skull, rare tiara, magical tiara, Crown of Ages
*Attack speed: Andariel's Visage
*Defensive: Crown of Ages, Vampiregaze ++
*Crushing blow: Guillaume's Face
-Armor:
*... you get the point.
Even Twitchtroe from normal difficulty has it's uses, as well as Black Hades and Spirit Forge from nightmare.
You could go for deadly strike and/or crushing blow, or additional damage or extra health.
It was OPTIONAL!!!!

OPTION-FREAKING-AL!
Then add in individual variations.
500 dex 100 vitality, or 300 dex 300 vitality.

Some strafezons use guided arrow and multishot, and some do not.
Some use Dodge, Evade and Avoid plus valkyrie, some do not.

Diablo 2 is like an ocean.
Most people just took the boat across it, never exploring it's near infinite depth.
Edited by Frostraven#1952 on 9/24/2012 1:57 PM PDT
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09/24/2012 01:55 PMPosted by Frostraven
It was the most FUN rpg contained in one single box, and it exploded with Lord of Destruction.


Yeah, no. Baldur's Gate II beat out Diablo II easily in terms of most fun RPG, and before that Planescape: Torment set them both to shame quality-wise.

Diablo 2 is like an ocean.
Most people just took the boat across it, never exploring it's near infinite depth.


There's so much more to RPGs than the length of power-gaming you went into. It was a fun game, but the fact that you think sockets and builds is what makes something as the best RPG ever really says something about what kind of gamer really enjoyed Diablo 2. The same year that Diablo II came out, Baldur's Gate showed what RPGs are about: The characters, an enthralling story, music, tons of dialogue options, moral choices, quests. Sadly, so many aRPG players would never appreciate that depth in RPGs goes beyond killing stuff.
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