Diablo® III

Torchlight 2 vs D3: Itemization & Skills

TL2's item system is the same as D3's. Of course there's emphasis on attributes in TL2. It's the most important stat apart from weapon DPS.

Strength increases the DPS of all physical damage by a %. Focus increases the DPS of all spell damage by a %. Just like primary stats in D3.

Yes, you can play suboptimally, but you can do that in D3 too. It's just easier in TL2 because the game is easier overall.

Here's the D3 complaints infographic. Let's go through this point by point: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

1. If Andy's Visage dropped in TL2 it will only be optimal for an outlander (maybe). Dex is a pretty bad stat in TL2.

2. Just like D3, DPS is the only thing that matters because most spells scale off of it.

3. All level 40-50 legendaries will be replaced by higher level blues and greens, say level 60ish, like in D3.

4. There are no +skill attributes in TL2.

5. Yes, because of all of the above.

End the hypocrisy. It's mostly the same item system.


Items:
Item diversity is about ten times as large in Torchlight 2.
5 times greater because stuff actually drops when you actually need that stuff.
5 times greater because the mods are not always utterly insignificant and bland and because you don't *need* main stat + vitality + whatever on all items.

========

The skill system is a lot better:
-I can choose skills
-I can specialize in skills
-Most of my embermage skills are NOT based on weapon damage.

========

Attributes are better.
Why do you even compare the Diablo 3 raped version of Andariel's Face when you should have used Diablo 2's???

Let us take the core:
+2 to all skills
20% increased attack speed
10% life stolen per hit
+25-30 strength
-30% fire resistance
+70% poison resistance

And transform that to Torchlight 2:
+20% damage
+20% increased attack speed
+10% life stolen per hit
+20-30 strength
-10 fire resistance
+35 poison resistance

You clearly have not played the game when you suggest attributes are anywhere NEAR as important on items in Torchlight 2 as in Diablo 3 for any build.
*Focus increases ALL elemental damage and increases mana
*Strength increases ALL WEAPON DAMAGE and critical damage
*Vitality increases block chance, armor and life
*Dexterity increase the chance to score a critical strike AND chance to dodge.

Thus you can, as a spellcaster, focus on Strength, Vitality and Dexterity for a good defense, high weapon damage AND high critical hits.

OR you can focus on dexterity, focus and vitality for high survivability and high spell damage.

OR you can focus on focus for high damage and low survivability.

Items can have have +X% elemental damage, and thus they allow you to CHOOSE between focus or a specific elemental damage.
Besides, Focus adds 0.5% ELEMENTAL damage per level, and never reaches the 200s like in Diablo 3 -- where one attribute handles ALL aspects of damage for each character.

...

Inb4 someone saying the game is too easy, to which I reply:
I'm having a blast in Veteran -- before going over to Elite on the next playthrough.
Edited by Frostraven#1952 on 9/24/2012 2:26 PM PDT
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Posts: 3,904
TL2's item system is the same as D3's. Of course there's emphasis on attributes in TL2. It's the most important stat apart from weapon DPS.

Strength increases the DPS of all physical damage by a %. Focus increases the DPS of all spell damage by a %. Just like primary stats in D3.

Yes, you can play suboptimally, but you can do that in D3 too. It's just easier in TL2 because the game is easier overall.

Here's the D3 complaints infographic. Let's go through this point by point: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

1. If Andy's Visage dropped in TL2 it will only be optimal for an outlander (maybe). Dex is a pretty bad stat in TL2.

2. Just like D3, DPS is the only thing that matters because most spells scale off of it.

3. All level 40-50 legendaries will be replaced by higher level blues and greens, say level 60ish, like in D3.

4. There are no +skill attributes in TL2.

5. Yes, because of all of the above.

End the hypocrisy. It's mostly the same item system.


Items:
Item diversity is about ten times as large in Torchlight 2.
5 times greater because stuff actually drops when you actually need that stuff.
5 times greater because the mods are not always utterly insignificant and bland and because you don't *need* main stat + vitality + whatever on all items.

========

The skill system is a lot better:
-I can choose skills
-I can specialize in skills
-Most of my embermage skills are NOT based on weapon damage.

========

Attributes are better.
Why do you even compare the Diablo 3 raped version of Andariel's Face when you should have used Diablo 2's???

Let us take the core:
+2 to all skills
20% increased attack speed
10% life stolen per hit
+25-30 strength
-30% fire resistance
+70% poison resistance

And transform that to Torchlight 2:
+20% damage
+20% increased attack speed
+10% life stolen per hit
+20-30 strength
-10 fire resistance
+35 poison resistance

You clearly have not played the game when you suggest attributes are anywhere NEAR as important on items in Torchlight 2 as in Diablo 3 for any build.
*Focus increases ALL elemental damage and increases mana
*Strength increases ALL WEAPON DAMAGE and critical damage
*Vitality increases block chance, armor and life
*Dexterity increase the chance to score a critical strike AND chance to dodge.

Thus you can, as a spellcaster, focus on Strength, Vitality and Dexterity for a good defense, high weapon damage AND high critical hits.

OR you can focus on dexterity, focus and vitality for high survivability and high spell damage.

OR you can focus on focus for high damage and low survivability.

Items can have have +X% elemental damage, and thus they allow you to CHOOSE between focus or a specific elemental damage.
Besides, Focus adds 0.5% ELEMENTAL damage per level, and never reaches the 200s like in Diablo 3 -- where one attribute handles ALL aspects of damage for each character.

...

Inb4 someone saying the game is too easy, to which I reply:
I'm having a blast in Veteran -- before going over to Elite on the next playthrough.

Why are core attributes so important in D3? Because they add +% damage. Why are core attributes so important in TL2? For exactly the same reason.

There's no reason to get strength as a caster, you can do a few lines of math to show that focus is better.

Face it, all games have basically 1-2 stats that matters. That's true only in D3 (weapon DPS and core attributes) and TL2 (weapon DPS and core attribute), but also D2 (+skill level).
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Items:
Item diversity is about ten times as large in Torchlight 2.
5 times greater because stuff actually drops when you actually need that stuff.
5 times greater because the mods are not always utterly insignificant and bland and because you don't *need* main stat + vitality + whatever on all items.

========

The skill system is a lot better:
-I can choose skills
-I can specialize in skills
-Most of my embermage skills are NOT based on weapon damage.

========

Attributes are better.
Why do you even compare the Diablo 3 raped version of Andariel's Face when you should have used Diablo 2's???

Let us take the core:
+2 to all skills
20% increased attack speed
10% life stolen per hit
+25-30 strength
-30% fire resistance
+70% poison resistance

And transform that to Torchlight 2:
+20% damage
+20% increased attack speed
+10% life stolen per hit
+20-30 strength
-10 fire resistance
+35 poison resistance

You clearly have not played the game when you suggest attributes are anywhere NEAR as important on items in Torchlight 2 as in Diablo 3 for any build.
*Focus increases ALL elemental damage and increases mana
*Strength increases ALL WEAPON DAMAGE and critical damage
*Vitality increases block chance, armor and life
*Dexterity increase the chance to score a critical strike AND chance to dodge.

Thus you can, as a spellcaster, focus on Strength, Vitality and Dexterity for a good defense, high weapon damage AND high critical hits.

OR you can focus on dexterity, focus and vitality for high survivability and high spell damage.

OR you can focus on focus for high damage and low survivability.

Items can have have +X% elemental damage, and thus they allow you to CHOOSE between focus or a specific elemental damage.
Besides, Focus adds 0.5% ELEMENTAL damage per level, and never reaches the 200s like in Diablo 3 -- where one attribute handles ALL aspects of damage for each character.

...

Inb4 someone saying the game is too easy, to which I reply:
I'm having a blast in Veteran -- before going over to Elite on the next playthrough.

Why are core attributes so important in D3? Because they add +% damage. Why are core attributes so important in TL2? For exactly the same reason.

There's no reason to get strength as a caster, you can do a few lines of math to show that focus is better.

Face it, all games have basically 1-2 stats that matters. That's true only in D3 (weapon DPS and core attributes) and TL2 (weapon DPS and core attribute), but also D2 (+skill level).


An embermage CAN use wands and staves for dealing damage.
An embermage using weapons for dealing damage receives bonuses from strength.
Using wands for dealing damagee is a viable option.

In addition, strength increases critical damage for all attacks, making it an alternative for those focusing on getting critical hits.

Most likely better (Torchight 2) =/= the only viable option (Diablo 3)

Bonuses in Torchlight 2 are more in line with those in Diablo 2:
They are not the end-be-all and do not spawn in so absurd large numbers that they feel mandatory.
In fact, attributes in Torchlight 2 appear to be MORE BALANCED than those in Diablo 2 -- apart from the lack of strength requirements from gear.
Attributes in Diablo 3 are inherently broken because they come in 100-200 on most items.

You should seriously try to play Torchlight 2 before making bold claims about itemization.

Look back at Diablo 2.


Strength adds 1% enhanced damage for (nearly) all melee weapons.

How many barbarians maxed strength because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Close to none.
How many barbarians tried to wear only strength-enhancing equipment?
Close to none: The 1% bonus didn't get boosted into the 100s like they do in Diablo 3 and were thus not mandatory, when skills that INCREASED IN POWER enhanced damage much more than attributes.

How many amazons maxed dexterity because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Many bowazons added a lot of points into dexterity because their skills had low enhanced damage.

But they did not have to.
250 worked well.
300 worked well, sacrificing survivability for power.
350 worked well, sacrificing survivability for much more power.
400 worked very well, sacrificing much survivability for much more power.
500 worked very well, making a glass cannon.

Yet, I never felt the need to socket my armor with gems to increase my dexterity.

The exact same applies to torchlight 2:
Attributes on items is FILLER, not MANDATORY.
Edited by Frostraven#1952 on 9/25/2012 6:19 AM PDT
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Posts: 3,904


Why are core attributes so important in D3? Because they add +% damage. Why are core attributes so important in TL2? For exactly the same reason.

There's no reason to get strength as a caster, you can do a few lines of math to show that focus is better.

Face it, all games have basically 1-2 stats that matters. That's true only in D3 (weapon DPS and core attributes) and TL2 (weapon DPS and core attribute), but also D2 (+skill level).


An embermage CAN use wands and staves for dealing damage.
An embermage using weapons for dealing damage receives bonuses from strength.
Using wands for dealing damagee is a viable option.

In addition, strength increases critical damage for all attacks, making it an alternative for those focusing on getting critical hits.

Most likely better (Torchight 2) =/= the only viable option (Diablo 3)

Bonuses in Torchlight 2 are more in line with those in Diablo 2:
They are not the end-be-all and do not spawn in so absurd large numbers that they feel mandatory.
In fact, attributes in Torchlight 2 appear to be MORE BALANCED than those in Diablo 2 -- apart from the lack of strength requirements from gear.
Attributes in Diablo 3 are inherently broken because they come in 100-200 on most items.

You should seriously try to play Torchlight 2 before making bold claims about itemization.

Look back at Diablo 2.


Strength adds 1% enhanced damage for (nearly) all melee weapons.

How many barbarians maxed strength because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Close to none.
How many barbarians tried to wear only strength-enhancing equipment?
Close to none: The 1% bonus didn't get boosted into the 100s like they do in Diablo 3 and were thus not mandatory, when skills that INCREASED IN POWER enhanced damage much more than attributes.

How many amazons maxed dexterity because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Many bowazons added a lot of points into dexterity because their skills had low enhanced damage.

But they did not have to.
250 worked well.
300 worked well, sacrificing survivability for power.
350 worked well, sacrificing survivability for much more power.
400 worked very well, sacrificing much survivability for much more power.
500 worked very well, making a glass cannon.

Yet, I never felt the need to socket my armor with gems to increase my dexterity.

The exact same applies to torchlight 2:
Attributes on items is FILLER, not MANDATORY.

Get a clue. Spells in D2 don't scale off weapon damage, so strength was useless. Neither does energy. You needed +skill level increased spell/skill damage in D2.

Spells/skills scale off weapon damage in TL2 and D3, so things that increase weapon DPS are good. Items that don't add +strength or +focus are bad in TL2, just like how items that don't add +attribute are bad in D3. The reason is because in both TL2 and D3, these stats increase damage of spells and skills by a %.

Do you see the pattern yet?

D2, D3, TL2 items are all the same: what spell/skill DPS scales with is the best stat.

In D2 that's +skill level, in D3 that's +primary attribute or weapon DPS, in TL2 that's +strength or +focus or weapon DPS.

Itemization isn't complicated, in any of these games: stack the stats that your spells/skill scales with.

Also, +strength increases spell damage through weapon DPS and crit, but +focus increases it more. Again, all 5 complaints in the D3 inforgraphic apply, point-for-point, in TL2. If D3's itemization sucks, it necessarily follows that TL2's also sucks, it's the same thing. In D3, only items with good primary attribute and high weapon DPS are good, the TL2 only items with good strength or focus and high weapon DPS are good. Same !@#$..

If attributes are not mandatory in TL2, then why are they "mandatory" in D3?
Edited by Eigenscape#6207 on 9/25/2012 7:56 AM PDT
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09/25/2012 08:12 AMPosted by Orion
You cant really compare the stories and rpg elements of two completely games.


When I'm replying to someone that said that Diablo 2 was the best RPG ever, yes I most certainly. People continue to think that the mechanics of aRPGs like Diablo 2 represents what RPGs are in general, and to that I have to point out that there is so much more to the RPG experience than testing builds and min-maxing stats.
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An embermage CAN use wands and staves for dealing damage.
An embermage using weapons for dealing damage receives bonuses from strength.
Using wands for dealing damagee is a viable option.

In addition, strength increases critical damage for all attacks, making it an alternative for those focusing on getting critical hits.

Most likely better (Torchight 2) =/= the only viable option (Diablo 3)

Bonuses in Torchlight 2 are more in line with those in Diablo 2:
They are not the end-be-all and do not spawn in so absurd large numbers that they feel mandatory.
In fact, attributes in Torchlight 2 appear to be MORE BALANCED than those in Diablo 2 -- apart from the lack of strength requirements from gear.
Attributes in Diablo 3 are inherently broken because they come in 100-200 on most items.

You should seriously try to play Torchlight 2 before making bold claims about itemization.

Look back at Diablo 2.


Strength adds 1% enhanced damage for (nearly) all melee weapons.

How many barbarians maxed strength because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Close to none.
How many barbarians tried to wear only strength-enhancing equipment?
Close to none: The 1% bonus didn't get boosted into the 100s like they do in Diablo 3 and were thus not mandatory, when skills that INCREASED IN POWER enhanced damage much more than attributes.

How many amazons maxed dexterity because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Many bowazons added a lot of points into dexterity because their skills had low enhanced damage.

But they did not have to.
250 worked well.
300 worked well, sacrificing survivability for power.
350 worked well, sacrificing survivability for much more power.
400 worked very well, sacrificing much survivability for much more power.
500 worked very well, making a glass cannon.

Yet, I never felt the need to socket my armor with gems to increase my dexterity.

The exact same applies to torchlight 2:
Attributes on items is FILLER, not MANDATORY.

Get a clue. Spells in D2 don't scale off weapon damage, so strength was useless. Neither does energy. You needed +skill level increased spell/skill damage in D2.

Spells/skills scale off weapon damage in TL2 and D3, so things that increase weapon DPS are good. Items that don't add +strength or +focus are bad in TL2, just like how items that don't add +attribute are bad in D3. The reason is because in both TL2 and D3, these stats increase damage of spells and skills by a %.

Do you see the pattern yet?

D2, D3, TL2 items are all the same: what spell/skill DPS scales with is the best stat.

In D2 that's +skill level, in D3 that's +primary attribute or weapon DPS, in TL2 that's +strength or +focus or weapon DPS.

Itemization isn't complicated, in any of these games: stack the stats that your spells/skill scales with.

Also, +strength increases spell damage through weapon DPS and crit, but +focus increases it more. Again, all 5 complaints in the D3 inforgraphic apply, point-for-point, in TL2. If D3's itemization sucks, it necessarily follows that TL2's also sucks, it's the same thing. In D3, only items with good primary attribute and high weapon DPS are good, the TL2 only items with good strength or focus and high weapon DPS are good. Same !@#$..

If attributes are not mandatory in TL2, then why are they "mandatory" in D3?


The pattern is Blizzard knows this and made it so that you wont get the items you want no matter how many hundreds of hours you spend in the game. For all you know the 1.6k to 2k damage weps in D3 are actually sold by Blizzard with dummy accounts to flush some cash. TL2 actually gives you the weps you want plus some alternative weps of equal strength (without grinding) to test.
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An embermage CAN use wands and staves for dealing damage.
An embermage using weapons for dealing damage receives bonuses from strength.
Using wands for dealing damagee is a viable option.

In addition, strength increases critical damage for all attacks, making it an alternative for those focusing on getting critical hits.

Most likely better (Torchight 2) =/= the only viable option (Diablo 3)

Bonuses in Torchlight 2 are more in line with those in Diablo 2:
They are not the end-be-all and do not spawn in so absurd large numbers that they feel mandatory.
In fact, attributes in Torchlight 2 appear to be MORE BALANCED than those in Diablo 2 -- apart from the lack of strength requirements from gear.
Attributes in Diablo 3 are inherently broken because they come in 100-200 on most items.

You should seriously try to play Torchlight 2 before making bold claims about itemization.

Look back at Diablo 2.


Strength adds 1% enhanced damage for (nearly) all melee weapons.

How many barbarians maxed strength because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Close to none.
How many barbarians tried to wear only strength-enhancing equipment?
Close to none: The 1% bonus didn't get boosted into the 100s like they do in Diablo 3 and were thus not mandatory, when skills that INCREASED IN POWER enhanced damage much more than attributes.

How many amazons maxed dexterity because it added 1% enhanced damage per point?
Many bowazons added a lot of points into dexterity because their skills had low enhanced damage.

But they did not have to.
250 worked well.
300 worked well, sacrificing survivability for power.
350 worked well, sacrificing survivability for much more power.
400 worked very well, sacrificing much survivability for much more power.
500 worked very well, making a glass cannon.

Yet, I never felt the need to socket my armor with gems to increase my dexterity.

The exact same applies to torchlight 2:
Attributes on items is FILLER, not MANDATORY.

Get a clue. Spells in D2 don't scale off weapon damage, so strength was useless. Neither does energy. You needed +skill level increased spell/skill damage in D2.

Spells/skills scale off weapon damage in TL2 and D3, so things that increase weapon DPS are good. Items that don't add +strength or +focus are bad in TL2, just like how items that don't add +attribute are bad in D3. The reason is because in both TL2 and D3, these stats increase damage of spells and skills by a %.

Do you see the pattern yet?

D2, D3, TL2 items are all the same: what spell/skill DPS scales with is the best stat.

In D2 that's +skill level, in D3 that's +primary attribute or weapon DPS, in TL2 that's +strength or +focus or weapon DPS.

Itemization isn't complicated, in any of these games: stack the stats that your spells/skill scales with.

Also, +strength increases spell damage through weapon DPS and crit, but +focus increases it more. Again, all 5 complaints in the D3 inforgraphic apply, point-for-point, in TL2. If D3's itemization sucks, it necessarily follows that TL2's also sucks, it's the same thing. In D3, only items with good primary attribute and high weapon DPS are good, the TL2 only items with good strength or focus and high weapon DPS are good. Same !@#$..

If attributes are not mandatory in TL2, then why are they "mandatory" in D3?


Attributes in Diablo 3 are mandatory because they add up 2000% enhanced weapon damage that does not in any way require you to forgo other statistics.
2000 strength for a barbarian = 2000% enhanced damage

In Torchlight, items can spawn with +10% damage, or +15% cold damage.
These cause item diveristy, because a higher % cold damage bonus is better for a cold mage, and will be higher than a generic bonus, giving you the CHOICE between 10 focus for 5% more damage and 5 more mana, 10% higher damage OR 15% higher cold damage.

In Diablo 3, there is no choice.

In Diablo 2, the 300% enhanced damage you got from 300 strength was not enough to forgo 200 vitality for Zealots, Frenzy barbarians nor enchant sorceresses.
But for characters with two-handed weapons, using attributes to increase damage has been witnessed:

The titan barbarian, is one example.
Most barbarians do not really stack up on +Skills, and don't feel forced to go all strength either. But they CAN do so.
Bowazons, can ELECT to go 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450 or 500 dexterity -- or anywhere inbetween.

+Skills was mandatory for dealing lots of damage for most classes in Diablo 2.
That was mostly because of synergies, and pre-LoD because of the lack of better options for rings and amulet.
However, items actually came with +skills in Diablo 2 LOD, and there were different options within that spectrum too.

Sorceress headgear options:
Shako vs rare tiara vs nightwing's veil (cold sorceress) vs griphon's eye (lightning sorceress) vs giant skull with 2 rainbow facets vs magical tiara with 2-3 sockets

And that is the endgame options.
You didn't NEED anything but a Tarnhelm or Peasant Crown, and the uniques NEVER spawned with useless mods.
Edited by Frostraven#1952 on 9/26/2012 4:18 AM PDT
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ROFL at the people who have absolutely no clue... I won't even discuss this topic or try to convince anyone anymore...

"Never argue with a stupid person, they just bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience"...

TL2 is amazing... D3 could have been, but after playing a lot of TL2 I can see now where all the flaws are in diablo 3 and recognize, there may be no way to stop this boat from sinking...
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To Symplectic, and to a lesser extent to Strawhat -

I'm going to go over the basics in the itemization complaints here, and what made Diablo 2 fun, since the two of you don't appear to have played the game much - it wasn't JUST about min-maxing - it was about being UNIQUE and BETTER than someone else, which most gamers in ALL genres will note is FUN.

As Symplectic put it -

Here's the D3 complaints infographic. Let's go through this point by point: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png

1. If Andy's Visage dropped in TL2 it will only be optimal for an outlander (maybe). Dex is a pretty bad stat in TL2.
***Agreed, but here's the thing - one item isn't the whole story - in Diablo 2 there were items with skill points that would boost one particular build over another so you could be DIFFERENT than another player - and like it or not, TL2 is better at that than D3 - Diablo 3 you literally HAVE to stack main stat/vit or you pretty much suck which makes all characters the same and thus the game boring. TL2 is not as good as D2 was, but at the least you can make other viable builds I've seen several melee embermage builds that stacked strength and did lots of damage - good luck pulling that off in D3

2. Just like D3, DPS is the only thing that matters because most spells scale off of it.
****True to an extent, but there's MORE ways to get that higher dps - and you have a chance to screw it up - you get a high dps weapon, great, but I also have a lower dps weapon that I have socketed a chance to cast a giant meteor that nukes everything - from a SOCKET - I also met a random world enchanter that added a bunch of damage stats in several elements to my weapons - there are more CHOICES and thus more directions you can go with more elements, etc, and not every character is exactly the same

3. All level 40-50 legendaries will be replaced by higher level blues and greens, say level 60ish, like in D3.****

Not quite as clear cut as you may think - again random stats like extended range or chance to proc spell casts or other effects make the uniques a bit more interesting than vanilla D3, and still more interesting than the current hastily patched version - and there are several ways to greatly increase the DPS on lower level gear (I mentioned socketables, enchants, etc) so that the gear with the cool abilites you like can get more powerful - that doesn't exist at all in D3

4. There are no +skill attributes in TL2.
***yes, but there's percent damage buffs to elements or melee or ranged damage, which vanilla D3 gear didn't have at all, and additionally, you get POINTS to put in the skills you like, with tier bonuses for investing more, until some of them are seriously badass - in D3 everyone has all skills all the time with no way to differentiate on from another....BORING

5. Yes, because of all of the above.
***I've already touched on the fact that enchanting and socketing is more in depth in TL2, and transmuting is an interesting way to use junk items that's not prohibitively expensive for usually crap like in D3 - it's still not as in depth as rune words or cube crafting in D2, but better than D3 by a ways

End the hypocrisy. It's mostly the same item system.
***False, unless you intend the difference implied in "mostly" to mean a huge gulf.

Example of what sets D2 apart from D3 and to a lesser extent, Torchlight:

In D2, I found a sword with +5 rabies - this sounds cool, except everyone knows rabies does crap for damage and poison damage doesn't kill, and wolf druids are not too tough. Except I figured out just by messing around that
IF I was a wolf druid and maxed rabies (CHOICE) and IF i pumped up the synergies to rabies (CHOICE) and IF I used 10x +1 skill charms (remember charms??!) CHOICE) and IF I used the +skills druid helm, and bramble mitts that added +50% poison damage, (CHOICE) and IF I only leveled to 49, which let me just equip poison facets, I could, with ACTUAL EFFORT AND CHOICE make a level 49 poison druid that did 60,000 posion damage, and dropped enemy poison resistance by 35%, eqivalent to 81,000 PD....oh yeah and P.S. turns out RABIES poison actually DOES kill.....most surpisingly fun PVP character ever - no one expects the 49 wolf druid to !##@%@!% level 95 chars....but I did over and over...

Diablo 3 has NOTHING even RESEMBLING this process for making a character DIFFERENT and BETTER than someone else, which is a HUGE part of the fun of gaming, whether you want to call it power gamers or not, when you take away all the CHOICES, and you take away all the chance to SCREW UP your character, it makes EVERYONE the SAME....which is BORING....TL2 is not as good as D2, but it's at least pretty interesting - D3 is a half-assed mess with 2 total stats for each character and all the same skills....Boring as hell...and no comparison - I played Diablo 2 for YEARS. I played D3 for a total of 2 months, and only came to this thread by a comparison link to TL2 hah...like someone said...D3 is just a game, it's true....I just wish it wasn't called Diablo...that name means something special to the gamers who loved D2 for the sheer magnitude of CHOICES.....
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Oh and P.S. I don't know who said (was it strawhat?) that the core Diablo 2 player base was small and most people only played for a few months and left - this person is completely misinformed, or at worst, partially retarded -

Diablo 3 broke all records for sales on release - you think this was because it had a Shiny Box? Get a clue...seriously...
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I used to really like using the respec mod in Torchlight 1 but for some reason with Torchlight 2 I'm glad that the option is not yet available (without using console or the other method of sticking potions in your stared stash) as I really enjoy the feeling that I get when I choose where to put skill points and know that it's pretty permanent after I've spent 3 points. It's really a good feeling to me to have to reroll a new character if/when I screw up a build really badly, although so far most builds that I've tried out, even the bizarre ones that nobody would think would work, have actually worked out pretty good. Obviously some builds are a bit more gimped and might take more work to avoid death but overall they seem to all work rather well so far.
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The only reason D3 sold so much is BECAUSE of D2 being so good. The people who bought it because of D2 have QUIT. The people (*mostly* newer gamers) who have never played D2 think D3 is good. The people who quit D3 now have TL2 which is leagues better than D3 for a third of the price, but *most* of the people who like D3 cannot understand what is so good about D2 or TL2 because they can't see past the hype, graphics and simplicity of D3.

People arguing that D3 is better than TL2 or D2 is like someone arguing to a movie critic that Shark Night 3D is a better movie than The Godfather. It is like someone arguing to a music critic that Nickleback is better than Pink Floyd. It's two completely different worlds of perception.
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