Diablo® III

Energy Twister Explanation Request

I read a very nice, and detailed post behind the reduced proc coefficient about Run Like the Wind from Lylirra. Is it possible to have an equally nice post about the considered mechanic changes behind changing ET's coefficients? The original change was based on legendaries having a high proc rate. However, to the best of the wizard communities knowledge, there are no legendaries that really interact with our proc coefficients, aside from skorn, which is not really used with a CM/ET build exclusively.
Edited by mewbar#1710 on 9/24/2012 4:50 PM PDT
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The original change was based on legendaries having a high proc rate. However, to the best of the wizard communities knowledge, there are no legendaries that really interact with our proc coefficients
Sure there are. There's weapons that have chance to knockback/stun/freeze, summon monsters, etc. The chance to proc on these new legendaries are higher than prepatch legendaries (Windforce for example) so they had to reconsider changing the coefficient for patch 1.0.4 rather than leave it alone. What sucks is that no one is really using these weapons so the nerf IMO did more harm than good.
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Community Manager
In 1.0.4, we reduced Energy Twister's proc coefficients from 0.25 to 0.125, and applied that change to four of the five runes. Problem is, we intended that change to apply to all five runes including Storm Chaser, so we're correcting that mistake in 1.0.5 (it's going from 0.5 to 0.125 to match the others). It could probably be considered a bug fix at this point, but for the sake of clarity we're listing it as a normal change in the PTR patch notes. We might change that plan for the live notes, but it really depends on your feedback. :)

As for why we changed Energy Twister's proc coefficient at all, Wyatt summed that up nicely in his original class preview blog for 1.0.4: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6939564/
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all i say, its terrible choice they picked

We were faced with a choice: we could either reduce the proc coefficient, or we could make it so these skills could not trigger the procs on Legendary items at all.


I would rather twisters not proc legendaries at all.

which legendary do you think works great with twisters that the procs matter so much?

i 've tried storm crow, andariels visage = both are crap for the effects, tormentor being 2 handed is best handed to the enchantress.
as for legendary weapons, most are simply unsuitable because they don't have high loh, high lifesteal, socket and crit dmg and 1.4+ base att speed

(ie: wizardspike/sloraks madness etc is useless )

--
really. it would be far easier for players if you simply delink
a) loh procs
b) cm cd procs
c) legendary procs and other cc effect procs.
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 9/24/2012 6:06 PM PDT
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Lylirra, may I draw your attention to this post in which I have tested Archon vs Wicked Wind CM in farming speed and efficiency and found wicked wind to be subpar even in gears build exclusively for energy twister?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6678688372

In my opinion, if restoring proc rates on energy twister is not possible, at least lower it's casting cost because 35 AP is just too high for it's low damage and proc rate. You need far too long to regenerate the spent AP to cast another and even whites can unfrost by that time.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 9/24/2012 6:17 PM PDT
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Oh wow I thought Wyatt meant because of stuff like + energy twister % and + IAS, I never thought he meant cuz of legendary proc effects lolz with sever nerfed there really isn't a legendary proc worth using as justification of nerfing an entire line over so not quite sure why he even said that.

I actually thought that explaination was rather bland and uninformative coming from a developer standpoint, sorry. I would have liked to hear a response like the barbs got with all this internal testing they did and other decisions they had to make before ultimately doing that, but I guess we just aren't as popular or important as barbs are. After all we didn't help slay Diablo for multiple series!
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In 1.0.4, we reduced Energy Twister's proc coefficients from 0.25 to 0.125, and applied that change to four of the five runes. Problem is, we intended that change to apply to all five runes including Storm Chaser, so we're correcting that mistake in 1.0.5 (it's going from 0.5 to 0.125 to match the others). It could probably be considered a bug fix at this point, but for the sake of clarity we're listing it as a normal change in the PTR patch notes. We might change that plan for the live notes, but it really depends on your feedback. :)

As for why we changed Energy Twister's proc coefficient at all, Wyatt summed that up nicely in his original class preview blog for 1.0.4: (preview link)


i dont really see any reasoning in that preview link... its basically just saying the skill was too fun... so we halfed it... i dont understand that at all.
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From the blog:

"By reducing the proc coefficient from 0.25 to 0.125, the build still works and remains fairly strong, but it won’t be quite as good as it is now. (For those with extremely high Crit rates, you may not even notice much difference, but I wanted to call it out anyway. )
Originally, we weren’t going to make this change, but 1.0.4 also brings with it a number of new Legendary items, and many of them have phenomenal new proc effects. If we left high proc coefficients as they were, then a handful of skills with higher coefficients would become the de facto choice to use with these sexy new items. We were faced with a choice: we could either reduce the proc coefficient, or we could make it so these skills could not trigger the procs on Legendary items at all. We opted for the former because it seemed like getting a Legendary with a proc effect but never seeing it trigger would be very disappointing. Regardless, having well-balanced proc coefficients on all skills is not only better for Legendaries, but also for the game in the long term."


Unfortunately I don't think you've really seen how much of a hit this skill and as a result the CM/ <insert ET rune here> build has taken. I say that because like you said you intended to lower the proc coefficients on every rune and for some reason the storm chaser rune was set at 0.5. Once this was discovered everyone who was formerly using Wicked Wind quickly changed over to Storm Chaser. Thus nobody was providing any feedback on the low proc coefficient of the other runes.

I remember in the first week or so before SC was discovered though the forums were full of people who had tested the new proc coefficients and were largely declaring the build dead. I know the official forums are bad for over reacting harsh negative feedback however other forums I frequent were saying pretty much the same.

My only hope now is that with all runes nerfed to 0.125 that you get the long term real feedback on these changes. You've tried to buff Spectral Blades and Meteor and whether or not they become a usable replacement with the new changes, only the next few days on the ptr will tell. Even if they do all it does is force us to change from a spell we may like to one we may not with no justification from you other than the rather weak explanation in the blog about legendary procs. I don't recall seeing anyone or hearing of anyone exploiting these procs even with the extremely high 0.5 of SC. Like I said, I hope now you'll get some solid feedback on how 0.125 is far too low and with these legendary procs not being abused at a 0.5 proc coefficient will choose to raise them to something a little more reasonable.
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Community Manager
09/24/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Wtflag
Lylirra, may I draw your attention to this post in which I have tested Archon vs Wicked Wind CM in farming speed and efficiency and found wicked wind to be subpar even in gears build exclusively for energy twister?


I'll take a look. Thanks!

(Same goes for the rest of the feedback in this thread, too. I'm reading all of it and will make sure it gets where it needs to go.)
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the problem with nerfing CM, is you literally remove this build completly, and force wizards into this old cookie cutter idea, that wizards should be ranged damage and weak.

theres now only the "blizzards - hydra" spec.... and archon.

archone requires 100k DPS min, and thats a huge gear check and extremely hard to reach, and the hydra spec is so weak it feels incredibly frustrating to even try it.

what I liked about the CM spec, was .... its a wizard like thing, that I've never seen before.

I can find 100 games with wizards, and they are always the same... range damage, squishy.
CM was something I had never seen from a "wizard" class in any other game, and it was a great deal of fun.

now thats being removed by simply over nerfing all 3 aspects of the CM spec, which now forces the vast majority of wizards into this old.... range/squishy cookie cutter idea of what a wizard should be....

and thats extremely disappointing from a game perspective... and infuriating from a gamer perspective if you put tons of time and effort into getting the gear needed to make CM work well, and the time to get paragon levels.

this change literally kills off my charactor.... I have no viable alternative with 1.05. its hydra or archon..... and thats it.

they say they want build diversity - but killing off this spec doesnt do that, it very specifically limits it, and pushs you to a range spec which hardly promotes any sort of "build diversity".
the game should get better - not worse, and 1.05 at the moment only leaves me with a huge sense of dread.... cause I want to keep playing this game, but I cant see how if the change goes live as is, cause it sets me back by months of work, and makes half my gear useless.
what good is arcane power on crit gear, once CM is barely functional?
mana is hardly a issue for a wiz, other then a CM spec one... thats the reason why 99% of high end wizs dont use tal rasha gear, for the 4 set bonus... the benifit is non existent, and the zunimassa set bonus provides far better results.

the nerf to CM is far too drastic to really recover from, cause it kills the spec and makes so much gear obsolete.

this seems so frustrating, cause it seems so hopeless.
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09/24/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Hayrick
Once this was discovered everyone who was formerly using Wicked Wind quickly changed over to Storm Chaser. Thus nobody was providing any feedback on the low proc coefficient of the other runes.


This was a huge problem for feedback yes. Myself and other active wizards on the forum included would take time out from wtfpwning with SC and test WW to see it's viability, but we were the vast vast minority. Specifically me and Aimless as we geared up were testing pushing attack speeds past 2, 2.15, 2.25, 2.4, 2.6 with the same high CC rates. The results were discouraging as we'd need to gear too heavily with LoH and Apoc (both things an archon really doesn't need much of, including massive APS).

The cost of our builds ultimately ends up being much much more at our dps equivalent to justify just straight up DPS gear pushing to 100k+ that an archon can do for the same if not less cost due to not having having to deal with a pathetic .125 proc co-efficient in gearing arcane on crit, LoH, armor, resist (free for archon), over CC (with energy twister).

I would recommend however Wtflag that you re-test this on PTR. We did get a buff to our freeze, Shocknado users as myself got a buff to shock armor - that could be all the difference you need to get a small edge over Archon.

I will say though I believe that Meteor will be the new skill of choice and likely coupled with spectral blades for no AP since EB would cost way too much AP in conjunction with meteor and Energy Twister will once again fall to the least used category for not only CM/Melee's but our entire class builds.
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 9/24/2012 7:06 PM PDT
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yeap. the main reason is either lifesteal or loh just doesn't scale well with low procs.

eg: disintegrate build = suitable for act 2, not suitable for act3 simply because you get ganked in just 1-2 hits if 3-4 fast vortex molten firechains frozen phasebeasts are on you.

if the loh proc rate of disintegrate was as viable as stormchaser (ie: 0.5 per tick) , then yeah.

look at my hp recovery/mitigation on my gear.
I'm running with a soj as well, so by rights I'm doing something like a on paper base dps of 56k, well, with stormchaser I feel like a god, with disintegrate i get killed in 2 hits with no fast way to recover hp. with mistral breeze I die 3 times to a phase beast pack before they go down

(yet people say with higher attack speed mistral breeze is viable? )

I've yet to log in to test, regearing a few items (ring, amulet, lacuni, weapon, glove) might bring me to 1.9+ attack speed, thereafter I will have to either downgrade on dps to make room for either more cc or ias, OR start buying trifectas. so my point is, before i go this route, is it truely viable? yet does it reduce build diversity instead? (ie: if i'm getting to 100k dps by getting trifectas, then its more efficient to go archon )
seems like tank = not possible anymore especially that you link loh to proc rates.

I might be too quick to judge, still please make sure there is a viable tank melee mage build out there that can handle multiple a3 packs and feel like a god.

otherwise, all its doing is
a) kite build
or b) go archon

there is nothing in between anymore
--note armor and resists are unbuffed from prismatic armor--

Maximum Life: 34,891
Total Life Bonus: 0%
Life per Second: 1,927 (2237 with galvanising ward)
Life Steal: 2.7%
Life per Kill: 621
Life per Hit: 949
Health Globe Healing Bonus: 5,441
Bonus to Gold/Globe Radius: 14
Armor: 3,124 (5154 with primastic 1.04)
All Resist: 739 (71.1%) (1036 with prismatic 1.04)
Block Chance: 0%
Dodge Chance: 14.7%
Damage Reduction: 51%
Physical Resistance: 739 (71.1%)
Cold Resistance: 739 (71.1%)
Fire Resistance: 783 (72.3%)
Lightning Resistance: 797 (72.7%)
Poison Resistance: 739 (71.1%)
Arcane/Holy Resistance: 772 (72%)

http://d3up.com/b/1166

---
also delinking proc rates of cc/cm/loh will be good for hydra then you can give hydra some loh recovery
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 9/24/2012 7:18 PM PDT
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I'm going to give some feed back on this as I have been using CM for like 2-3 months now. I am one of the wizards that went from 23k dps - 125k dps with this cm build and I think my feed back might help us all.

The reason Wicked Wind got nerfed was mainly due to the fact that you can literally freeze enemies forever. While this statement holds some truth and some wizards have exploited that fact; there is a central problem with this "I can get cheap gear and perma-freeze my targets". That problem is with DPS. With cheap gear I got to 35% critical chance, 1k all res, 35k hp and guess what, 30k dps. This build that Blizzard is nerfing, because of "cheap gear makes me godly" is mainly in-correct because of the inefficiency of the wizard involved. You can not put out enough damage with this build to make it efficient. I always used a friend to make runs in a reasonable time period.

With that said, I still think wicked wind, and now like-wise storm chaser should be nerfed. It's very easy to get a high dps friends and make runs cake walk. I disagree with how much storm chaser is being nerfed.

Before, I had cheap gear and the nerf was not so bad. Now, my gear has cost many 100's of millions in gold. I no longer use Wicked Wind or Storm Chaser to perma-freeze targets. I use Storm Chaser to reduce the cool down on Archon and to keep up diamond skin against RD targets. So now, I must completely change my Archon build to keep up with the meta-game. I need to find a new way to proc diamond skin and Archon or invest in lifesteal. Also, with new monster power, killing is much slower, so I need my proc rate on storm chaser is the most important thing because it's very hard to keep up archon.

There is no other viable choice. Not only have we limited CM/WW/EB builds, but now archon is no longer viable because I can not deal with RD targets. I could get life steal or life on hit, but than I would have to change weapons in turn making Chantodo's, a very nicely designed weapon, worthless for any build, due to the fact that no build will use APoC.

So we have choices. If we nerf Storm Chaser to the ground than we limit Archon builds to LoH or Life Steal weapons. We kill CM/EB builds that are not very efficient solo due to low dps any way. The worst is that we take away the feeling of "Power" from Archon builds, due to the diversity of the build at high dps.

If we keep storm chaser the way it is than we end up with one really powerful end game build for Wizards. One that over-shadows others, not something Blizzard or the players want.

The solution is a middle ground. I think wicked wind is too powerful to be anywhere above .125, but storm chaser and all runes that move are much less powerful because we can not control the direction of the wind. The less powerful runes (or no rune) should have a proc rate near .175-.19, this will keep storm chaser and other runes a viable option for high dps Wizards that favor Archon, and will also keep the perma-freeze "cheap gear" wizards from being too powerful.
Edited by Lolpoplobstr#1331 on 9/24/2012 7:25 PM PDT
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I have tested Starpact with -14 AP (max is -19) in the live server. Even with far from optimized gear, meteor is at least as strong as 1.03 WW CM. Attack speed makes Meteor burns proc faster and returns AP fast is the key.

The upgrade path for me to use meteor will be:

1. Weapon, switch to CD + socket, no need for APOC. I can get it quite cheaply since you are not restricted to wands. Will increases my DPS by atleast 30%.

2. SOJ to meteor version which I already acquired before everyone and their grandma started gearing for meteor.

3. Mara which I already have

4. Skullgrasp which I'm currently working on. Market is going crazy for this one, atleast 40m I would say.

That would complete my Meteor build which I estimate to be about the same kill speed as 1.04 SC Shocknadoshards while been much more resilient with Prismatic Armor. Ranged runner will also not be a problem anymore.
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So we have choices. If we nerf Storm Chaser to the ground than we limit Archon builds to LoH or Life Steal weapons. We kill CM/EB builds that are not very efficient solo due to low dps any way. The worst is that we take away the feeling of "Power" from Archon builds, due to the diversity of the build at high dps.

If we keep storm chaser the way it is than we end up with one really powerful end game build for Wizards. One that over-shadows others, not something Blizzard or the players want.

The solution is a middle ground. I think wicked wind is too powerful to be anywhere above .125, but storm chaser and all runes that move are much less powerful because we can not control the direction of the wind. The less powerful runes (or no rune) should have a proc rate near .175-.19, this will keep storm chaser and other runes a viable option for high dps Wizards that favor Archon, and will also keep the perma-freeze "cheap gear" wizards from being too powerful.


the problem is perma stunlocking. which they can easily resolve by giving monsters a 0.5 second 100% cc reduction buff after being stunned once. (same like how players are prevented from being chain nightmared)

thus leaving everything else alone.

right now, I feel that the balance to prevent perma stunlock is what leads to the 0.125 proc rate, which makes it unviable except to those with mega crit chance/ias (ie: within 95% of achievable cap), at which point you still get perma stun lock especially with 2 cm wizards at something like 2.5 ias and 51+% cc. (for eg: figures will vary)

--

I also feel that one of the issues with tank wizards is this

a) dual wielding classes get an extra dip in the loh + lifesteal pool
b) barbs/monks get -30% melee reduction again. (blur is -20%. since they have a hidden passive so as to say, then we have to look at proc rates or allow melee attack skills on a wizard to also have a -30% dmg reduction or some part thereof)
c) barbs and lifesteal belts, yet another over the top buff. make all belts possible to roll lifesteal.
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 9/24/2012 7:32 PM PDT
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If Storm Chaser proc is .5 and it doesnt do crazy stuff with Legendary proc at all, so basically its just fair to get our wicked wind back because compare to SC rune, the coef on is .25

"Originally, we weren’t going to make this change, but 1.0.4 also brings with it a number of new Legendary items, and many of them have phenomenal new proc effects."

~Wyatt Cheng
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i really think the perma lock melee combo is a dominating build just like a barbs ww aspect, bears on a wd and mana regen voodoo, gas grenades and caltraps/loh on a dh, a monks aoe's and all in one. nerfing any one of these builds nerfs the game because this is mostly what any tanking build would use
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Lylirra, may I draw your attention to this post in which I have tested Archon vs Wicked Wind CM in farming speed and efficiency and found wicked wind to be subpar even in gears build exclusively for energy twister?


I'll take a look. Thanks!

(Same goes for the rest of the feedback in this thread, too. I'm reading all of it and will make sure it gets where it needs to go.)


In the barb thread you mentioned that you guys didn't want to completely kill the WW/RLTW build.

With the ET nerf you completely killed ET/CM build variants.

I don't get it.

ET needs a buff in proc rate plain and simple. The best alternative is meteor and meteor works best on monsters that stand still otherwise it misses and the burning effect on the ground is what helps to proc CM. other than that Meteor is not a smart replacement.

Not only that it seems like Arcane power on crit is affected by proc rates and isn't truly Arcane power on crit but is rather MAY gain arcane power on crit,.

I been playing a wizard from launch and with the 1.0.5 changes I have no choice but to stray away from anything defensive and go back to hydra kiting in 1.0.5. That's not build diversity in my opinion that achieving the opposite.
Edited by kilo#1474 on 9/24/2012 7:46 PM PDT
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this change literally kills off my character. :-(
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