Diablo® III

Energy Twister Explanation Request

As a Chinese student I often visited local Chinese and Taiwanese D III game forum and is happy to transfer what they have presented.

Most would agree that a 0.5-0.125 is over-nerfed and many of them who purchased Zunimassa set now even tried their WD and found more fun. This led to a serious problem about how efficiently WIZARD, as a class, farm A3 (as a farming standard). People who do not like a 120 second CD prefer not to take Archon with them, and purchase expensive gears that offer Cri Hit Chance to farm with CM/SC. This is simply because other builds cannot offer the same efficiency. Think of Blizzard/Hydra build, it is ranged and safe, but it is TOO slow and requires gears that provides life regeneration. Archon might also encounter problem when facing Reflect Damage elites and its survivability remains a concern.

This led many of my fellow friends guess how Blizzard POSITION WIZARD. What BLIZZARD wants WIZARD to be? It is a melee or ranged class like SOC in D II? If it is latter, then how come the AOE skills like Blizzard make people farm unhappily and inefficiently? The problem is not only CM/SC, it is other skills are too weak. A probable buff in SB is coming, but it is a melee skill. Without Crystal Armor or Ice Nova Wizard cannot even survive in A3 and how could you imagine players use SB? (Blizzard sometimes froze, but it is unstable. Just like investing in stock market, risk-adverse investors hate volatility and instability, same here) How about Meteor, when you find you use a star pact and fall into an enemy's body, how frustrated you could possibly be? Back to ET, on top of its proc coefficient, how much damage do you expect it to cause to enemies? Without a reasonable proc, nobody's gonna use it anymore. So WHAT IS WIZARD, a class farms relatively inefficiently compared to BB and WD?

The whole problem is not about a 0.5-0.125 nerf, it is about how efficiently WIZARD could farm. Currently in 104 with SC, to some high/middle-end wizard players they could farm efficiently. But if nerfed they might no longer be able to. By nerfing in a EITHER-OR way, Blizzard is in fact ruining this build and not really promoting diversity. In the worst case, if nerf, that's fine, but please provide us with a build that helps us farm at least as efficiently as WD or BB (There is a reason why BB is the first to reach lv 100...)

At this stage of the game, my personal opinion is that re-consider the proc adjustment and buff other skills. Don't ruin the existing build, do what you did in Hydra.


Totally agree, especially "The whole problem is not about a 0.5-0.125 nerf, it is about how efficiently WIZARD could farm. "
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god, after spending the last 3 hours on test FINALLY, the wizard feels so pathetic.

meteors are so damn slow, mobs and kill you while casting, almost nothing seems to really keep power up, and skills seem to just sit there....

the only way CM is gonna be viable after this, is for a person with a ton of money to put attack speed on every item they get....

I can swap around old gear and get to about 1.8 attacks per second, and keep 44 crit, but even that doesnt do much....

and the worst part is, I cant even take part in monster power stuff, cause the charactor feels so pathetic now, and gets one shot over and over, cause nothings ever up.
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86 Worgen Warrior
9600
Posts: 28
So my question for the devs, is basically, what legendary items are you talking about in that blog?

I have tested a number of legendaries with storm chaser on live, whose coefficient is twice what the un-nerfed version of energy twister, and I can't seem to find one that evens remotely powerful. So here is the real question:

What data do you have that suggests your prophecy of energy twister abusing legendary procs has any basis in realty? Since we should have some fairly good data on that since we've been running all of 1.0.4 with a spell with literally twice the "abusable" coefficient, shouldn't we have an explosion of energy twister + legendary builds out there?
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Overnerfed, thats what they did to energy twister in general, and as result the skill wont be used no more. If they actually "tested procs" they would realize 0.125 is completely laughable, even for WW, because cm wizards not only need procs for cm but we need it for apoc and loh as well, which means that at 0.125 we would need ridiculous amounts of critical chance, apoc and attack speed just to get the arcane power u spent on a pitiful ww back. Now I havent tested much but I have played a lot of CM with this wizard, and they should higher the proc on WW to at least 0.16666(1/6 procs), and the other runes should get a 0.2 proc(1/5) with the exception of maybe mistral breeze because of the reduced casting cost(should be the same as WW). That would be the most balanced decision, it would make the build around energy twister still viable(although not easy to achieve in terms of critical chance/attack speed/apoc) but nowhere near the godlike status from 1.04 storm chaser and also weaker than 1.03 WW.
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I think at this point, the CMs can't say or do shît beyond "we are fixing what was already nerfed in 104". And devs aren't doing shît about the OVERNERF because Jay Wilson only cares about his barb.

What is going to happen if Blizz don't address this in a later patch, there will be a mass exodus of wizards quitting from the string of over-nerfing, and those left with a brain will just be forced to use meteors. Great job at build diversity there, moving people from 1 skill to another!. And twisters getting killed isn't the first and likely won't be the last. This issue of repeated over-nerfing goes beyond just this issue with twisters.

Is putting WW proc to 0.125, like it is now and addressing the original problem of WW being abused, while LEAVING THE OTHER RUNES THE FÛCK ALONE that difficult? Do some simulations of moving twisters on average number of mobs and come up with more appropriate proc rates for other moving twister runes, either at 0.25 or somewhere in the middle from 0.125. But not the same proc as stationary WW because moving twisters doesn't work the same.

And ya, I made it a point to break your profanity filter.
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the problem with nerfing CM, is you literally remove this build completly, and force wizards into this old cookie cutter idea, that wizards should be ranged damage and weak.

theres now only the "blizzards - hydra" spec.... and archon.

archone requires 100k DPS min, and thats a huge gear check and extremely hard to reach, and the hydra spec is so weak it feels incredibly frustrating to even try it.

what I liked about the CM spec, was .... its a wizard like thing, that I've never seen before.

I can find 100 games with wizards, and they are always the same... range damage, squishy.
CM was something I had never seen from a "wizard" class in any other game, and it was a great deal of fun.

now thats being removed by simply over nerfing all 3 aspects of the CM spec, which now forces the vast majority of wizards into this old.... range/squishy cookie cutter idea of what a wizard should be....

and thats extremely disappointing from a game perspective... and infuriating from a gamer perspective if you put tons of time and effort into getting the gear needed to make CM work well, and the time to get paragon levels.

this change literally kills off my charactor.... I have no viable alternative with 1.05. its hydra or archon..... and thats it.

they say they want build diversity - but killing off this spec doesnt do that, it very specifically limits it, and pushs you to a range spec which hardly promotes any sort of "build diversity".
the game should get better - not worse, and 1.05 at the moment only leaves me with a huge sense of dread.... cause I want to keep playing this game, but I cant see how if the change goes live as is, cause it sets me back by months of work, and makes half my gear useless.
what good is arcane power on crit gear, once CM is barely functional?
mana is hardly a issue for a wiz, other then a CM spec one... thats the reason why 99% of high end wizs dont use tal rasha gear, for the 4 set bonus... the benifit is non existent, and the zunimassa set bonus provides far better results.

the nerf to CM is far too drastic to really recover from, cause it kills the spec and makes so much gear obsolete.

this seems so frustrating, cause it seems so hopeless.


EXACTLY HOW I FEEL BRO SPOT ON
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i also think the replacement game devs decided to nerf CM wiz
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I think at this point in the game they just need to change the name of the game to Barbarian 3.
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From my understanding they nerfed it all on purpose and keep forgetting that most of the Diablo community plays APRG's and not RPG's. We also come from previous Diablo 2 games that never had timers on anything.

I really hate that this is being nurfed, but not as bad as i hated finding out that Diablo 3 was getting timers on the skills after seeing that wonderful demo by jay wilson on youtube in 2008 that never had any. I never played WOW and I never will. I hate that game and have always hated that game. Diablo 3 has been extremely hard to enjoy and when patch 1.03 came out nerfing attack speed i stopped playing. I came back when 1.04 was out and the CM build was exactly what i wanted.

I want to be able to use the wizard and enjoy my skills! thats the whole point of the passible skill "Critical hits reduce the cooldown 1 second" if your going to nurf the wind skills this bad you might as well remove them and the passive skill to reduce cooldowns by 1 second.

Your removing diversity and making diablo less fun. Wizards are unique, but the wizard skills just suck! If you removed all cooldowns then they would be fun, viable and create lots of diversity. If you keep the cooldowns on, and nurf the current build that helps reduce them your just hurting the populations diversity. Then in 1.06 you'll be nerfing Archon since all wizards will be archon because of the nerfs. Wizards have been at a disadvantage for a long time now, and nurfing is just unexceptable we need buffs if you want us to switch skills. Nerfs have only one outcome and thats Migration!

If this build becomes extinct and my favorite Wind Skill is gone, then I'm sure i wont be far behind.
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As a Chinese student I often visited local Chinese and Taiwanese D III game forum and is happy to transfer what they have presented.

Most would agree that a 0.5-0.125 is over-nerfed and many of them who purchased Zunimassa set now even tried their WD and found more fun. This led to a serious problem about how efficiently WIZARD, as a class, farm A3 (as a farming standard). People who do not like a 120 second CD prefer not to take Archon with them, and purchase expensive gears that offer Cri Hit Chance to farm with CM/SC. This is simply because other builds cannot offer the same efficiency. Think of Blizzard/Hydra build, it is ranged and safe, but it is TOO slow and requires gears that provides life regeneration. Archon might also encounter problem when facing Reflect Damage elites and its survivability remains a concern.

This led many of my fellow friends guess how Blizzard POSITION WIZARD. What BLIZZARD wants WIZARD to be? It is a melee or ranged class like SOC in D II? If it is latter, then how come the AOE skills like Blizzard make people farm unhappily and inefficiently? The problem is not only CM/SC, it is other skills are too weak. A probable buff in SB is coming, but it is a melee skill. Without Crystal Armor or Ice Nova Wizard cannot even survive in A3 and how could you imagine players use SB? (Blizzard sometimes froze, but it is unstable. Just like investing in stock market, risk-adverse investors hate volatility and instability, same here) How about Meteor, when you find you use a star pact and fall into an enemy's body, how frustrated you could possibly be? Back to ET, on top of its proc coefficient, how much damage do you expect it to cause to enemies? Without a reasonable proc, nobody's gonna use it anymore. So WHAT IS WIZARD, a class farms relatively inefficiently compared to BB and WD?

The whole problem is not about a 0.5-0.125 nerf, it is about how efficiently WIZARD could farm. Currently in 104 with SC, to some high/middle-end wizard players they could farm efficiently. But if nerfed they might no longer be able to. By nerfing in a EITHER-OR way, Blizzard is in fact ruining this build and not really promoting diversity. In the worst case, if nerf, that's fine, but please provide us with a build that helps us farm at least as efficiently as WD or BB (There is a reason why BB is the first to reach lv 100...)

At this stage of the game, my personal opinion is that re-consider the proc adjustment and buff other skills. Don't ruin the existing build, do what you did in Hydra.


+1 Well said.

This is the problem with wizards as I sated in this post: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6678688422?page=2#22

Blizzard does not know what to do with us. Anyone who thinks wizzard is efficient is delusional compared to any other class, period (including devs). AND to add to offence is not fun, it's just a torture to play wizard, the only builds that were fine and looked powerful have been nerfed.

So what does Blizzard want? That people who wants to continue to play wizards spend 1000 USD in the RMAH to be suboptimal compared to other classes? Please make your mind of what do you make of wizards and boost the crap of us. I don't care about twisters and procs, I just want realistic efficient builds to be possible (specially in MP >=3), like other classes have.
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I am really sorry to do this fellow CM/Melee's as a vocal advocate against the Energy Twister nerf, but after finally logging on through a work around on language I spent the last couple hours messing around with WW and Storm Chaser (more WW) and on Mp10 and I must say......I was having the Diablo time of my life!!

This just goes to show you you cannot put assumptions on things based on live till you try things out here. My build works PERFECTLY and was DESIGNED for Monster power - so is CM / Energy Twister melee builds in general. On Live I feel like my build is useless and just effective because of an over powered proc rate. Was just a matter of time till I got to 100k dps and went..wow my Explosive Blast kills things faster than I can freeze then twister...why am I using this build again? Mine as well go Archon.

Look at my gear, I'm nothing special..yes I have at least 250m invested in, but again I'm not walking around with like 400k EHP, 80-100k unbuffed dps. It's my build and the improvements they did for it. First off, Storm Armor is amazing now, it's not only good for melee speak but great for ranged now. Honestly I was dead on with frost nova, it's fricken overpowered compared to live lol. It's insane. And you know how deep freeze is almost useless on live with over 50k dps? Well now with likely even 200kdps deep freeze is highly useful when trash have elite like hp. I use this as my strategy to defeating the 50m hp elites lol..which those fights are just EPIC..you can feel the perma freeze in the beginning not be perma freeze anymore and sometimes I have to back away and train more trash than continue fighting. It's INTERESTING.

Bottom line, Energy Twister is generally fine. I got a 5 stack going - I had more rares than I knew what to do with they were dropping like candy. the ROLLS were a hell of a lot better. I found a 58 bracer that's better than any 63 bracer I have ever found, hell if I didn't have Lacuni's specialized for this build, I would have wore that lvl 58 bracer. The exp wasn't flying like crazy but it was spiking up really high in mplvl10. was flying in lvl 7.

Now I DO use stretch time to get my attack speed to what most would think is insane (2.63) so that has a lot to do with it and I do have a 5% ET Skull but my point is you can use WW in live and say it's crap but till you try it on PTR with monster power it means nothing.

Storm Chaser probably still needs to be bumped up still slightly as well as all moving tornado proc co-efficients, honestly something as minor as .15 would do. SC really not too viable on the last levels of monster power and overall .125 seems still a tad bit too punishing for moving tornados, but it's advantage is clearing faster so you shouldn't be using it on the last levels of monster power, you should be farming Mplvl4-7 with it. You should be using WW. So long as you're using energy twister it doesn't matter that you have to switch runes, that's the whole point in build options. Keep your skill switch the runes around. So I'm still in firm belief that all the runes of energy twister need their own co-efficient , just not anywhere near what they were prior.

Sorry guys..Lylirra, all is well here - having a blast on PTR!
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 9/25/2012 2:25 AM PDT
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What data do you have that suggests your prophecy of energy twister abusing legendary procs has any basis in realty? Since we should have some fairly good data on that since we've been running all of 1.0.4 with a spell with literally twice the "abusable" coefficient, shouldn't we have an explosion of energy twister + legendary builds out there?
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My main issue with the "justification" on Energy Twister nerf is

"Originally, we weren’t going to make this change, but 1.0.4 also brings with it a number of new Legendary items, and many of them have phenomenal new proc effects."

Almost all of the legendary proc effects are based on when you attack. The only one I can think of that is remotely relevant is Sky Splitter which is on hit based, but even then it's questionable how well it works.

What I don't get is how this nerf is still in place despite it having nothing to do with the original reasoning behind it. Stormchaser at .5 made the game trivial with defensive abilities since misplacing Twisters was not punishable at all. However, .125 coefficient on the ability has gone to the polar opposite. Misplacing one Wicked Wind can mean death no matter how well geared you are at higher Monster Power. At that point it really is just eating away at the quality of life aspect of the Wizard class.

The issue is really that it just feels terrible to kill single target mobs now as a CM wizard. The game is much more frustrating than challenging now. Even with Stormchaser, bad positioning against Succubi in Act 3 could leave you dead. However, now it's less about positioning and more about chasing mobs down attempting to get in meager damage with Wicked Wind and being close enough for Explosive Blast to do something.

Please address somehow the narrowness of the build when it comes to single target damage/ranged mobs. Wicked Wind against meele blue packs feels exactly right, but unless the stars align or you have infinite trash, Yellow ranged packs at MP8 is just not fun to chase around forever.
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Sorry guys..Lylirra, all is well here - having a blast on PTR!


Well, not everyone is sitting on absurdly high attack speeds, but the ego stroking is cute. I guess if we all had a few hundred million gold, the patch wouldn't be a problem for us either.

Bottom Line: 2.63 attack speed is unreachable for the vast majority of wizards, so all is definitely not well.


I would have to agree with you. And I just hope he would consider other wizards first before saying that the build works, coz obviously, the wizard above has end gear items.
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09/25/2012 02:19 AMPosted by MasterJay
Now I DO use stretch time to get my attack speed to what most would think is insane (2.63) so that has a lot to do with it and I do have a 5% ET Skull but my point is you can use WW in live and say it's crap but till you try it on PTR with monster power it means nothing.


And this is where you go wrong the need to have nearly unattainable attack speed for a build to work is not okay. I agree that there should be some requirements to CM builds call it an entry barrier but not as high as 50% CC and 2.6 attacks per second that is to high. Proc rates should be so that you can make it work with around 40% CC and 2 attacks per second that seems reasonable and attainable. I'd say Storm Chaser could work with that on 0.3 proc and Wicked Wind probably with 0.2. Sure that would be a huge buff to ppl with 2.4+ attacks per second and high end CC but is'nt that fine? I mean at some point we're supposed to feel like we broke the game right? And right now a wizard just does not feel that way at all no matter how high end my gear is..
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Storm Chaser probably still needs to be bumped up still slightly as well as all moving tornado proc co-efficients, honestly something as minor as .15 would do. SC really not too viable on the last levels of monster power and overall .125 seems still a tad bit too punishing for moving tornados, but it's advantage is clearing faster so you shouldn't be using it on the last levels of monster power, you should be farming Mplvl4-7 with it. You should be using WW. So long as you're using energy twister it doesn't matter that you have to switch runes, that's the whole point in build options. Keep your skill switch the runes around. So I'm still in firm belief that all the runes of energy twister need their own co-efficient , just not anywhere near what they were prior.


Exactly. This is how i felt about the other runes (other than wicked wind) in 103, and is how i still feel about the other runes (except storm chaser) in 104.

Which means someone with much worse gear is probably going to find the gap to be even larger, and most likely they are going to feel forced into using wicked wind in order to be viable. And after all, build diversity is what this change is all about, right?
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@MasterJay, I can't login to PTR so can't confirm. So can you explain how you think twisters are viable compared to meteor's let's say? Twisters proc at 0.125 now, all the runes including ones that move. Meteor is 0.25 (twice on initial hit). And meteors do more dps. And on 105 they only delay for 1.25s instead of 2. So unless twisters is stealth buffed to have a high proc rate or something that I'm not seeing, I don't see how you can say twisters are still "awesome" when other skills can be "more" awesome.

We are frustrated at the continuous over-nerfing of skills so stay on point there instead of talking about how much more dps you can do in 105 (which I'm not doubting, MP should make farming much more fun for all gear levels)

And FYI, I have more dps than you though a bit slower (2.1 atk speed without slowtime). I'm curious how you arrive at twisters are still good since it offers nothing in dps, only procs. Have you tried using meteors instead?
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i am 99% sure i will quit...tried to join multiple time to test it out but it kicks me out. just waste of space so mine as well uninstall it. tried ww on live and its just horrible. tried other specs to see if i can farm as efficient but failed. this is my second time jumping from another char and i am done. if i really think about it, it is a gift in disguise..d3 is taking way too much time from the day. so mine as well let IT push me away from it instead of ME pushing IT away. time for new adventure...and no you cant have my gear!
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