Diablo® III

Energy Twister Explanation Request

09/25/2012 02:37 PMPosted by TekkZero
Axxius:
Field test: Go to AH, search for the items MasterJay is using, and try to find a set even remotely close to his for 250m. Lots of laughs guaranteed! :)
But you don't need his gear to make it work. I'm doing fine in 1.05-PTR with WW and can corroborate what MasterJay is saying. Monster Level 10 is difficult for me due to not doing enough damage, but Monster Level 5-6 is not bad at all. The only "abnormal" thing in my setup is higher-than-average cc, 55% (60% with Pinpoint Barrier), mainly due to Slorak's Madness and a Skull Grasp. All of those things are quite reasonable to buy IMO. My most expensive item on my wiz is probably my legacy Storm Crow with 4.5cc (got it for 5 million). Just looking at your stats you should be doing more than fine in 1.05 PTR, as you smoke me on damage and have more damage mitigation.

I am currently unable to log into PTR (getting insta-disconnected right after getting in).

What areas are you doing fine in with the 1.0.5 WW? Try Fields of Slaughter (A3 take Bridge of Korsikk wp).

Edit: NM, found your other wiz. Yes, that is way less expensive than mine, let alone MasterJay's. So I am even more intrigued to see where exactly you are doing fine with the nerfed WW.
Edited by Axxius#1224 on 9/25/2012 3:51 PM PDT
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So i am a shocknado, it is very fun to play, easy death but fun.
Always have played wizards, mages, sorcerers but this diablo3 melee mage build is just awesome, very much so wizardly in a way i have not encountered before.
I spent somewhere 1000 million gold worth on gear tailored just towards this build.
I played the wiz for almost 700 hours, that's how much i enjoy this particular build!
Then today i was able to get on the ptr.
I have tried all possible ways i could think of to proc cm enough to sustain the diamond shield (which is crucial for a melee wiz since we are very squishy by nature and we not get -30% damage taken like the barbarian and the monk do), including ofc all meteor runes, the new blades etc.
My findings are with the current setting there is no viable setup for me to maintain diamond shield, not even close.
Also I get very few life back from my ls and loh, i have both.
Some sort of perma freeze is out of the question by hundreds of miles.
Shocking aspect became obsolete as a skill, same as all energy twister variants.
To sum it up, the build got completely destroyed.
I will be a very sad panda if there will not be some redesigning from the blizzard team before 1.05 goes live.
I'd have to leave my wonderful lvl 52 paragon wizard behind and lvl a ww or ranged barb.
But i don't want to. Please reconsider, whatever the real reason is of this nerf of ET or give us some working alternative, not meteor...
Wizards can be melee too, leave it that way!
Edited by Dutchy#2231 on 9/25/2012 4:03 PM PDT
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My findings are with the current setting there is no viable setup for me to maintain diamond shield, not even close.
Also I get very few life back from my ls and loh, i have both.
Some sort of perma freeze is out of the question by hundreds of miles.
Shocking aspect became obsolete as a skill, same as all energy twister variants.
To sum it up, the build got completely destroyed.

That's exactly my impression after trying out the post-nerf ET. Except that I could not afford a decent LS weapon yet, but I have over 900 LoH. The new proc rate simply doesn't proc enough to heal back even moderate damage. And you cannot stop the damage because perma-freeze and perma-skin just aren't happening unless the mobs stand in a tight bunch.
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Farmed endlessly for months on wizard, during uber inferno , 1.03, 1.04. Wicked wind was nerfed at 1.04 because apparently some legendaries would proc like crazy with it. During 1.04, most wizards discovered the bugged Stormchaser rune and almost everyone used it to proc critical mass. It was simply too good not to use, stunlock ( which apparently was NOT the reason of the wicked wind nerf) was guaranteed. Even when wizards used the overpowered stormchaser rune, there were no reports of wizards using stormchaser to proc abilities of legendary weapons. I still do not know exactly which weapons you are talking about. If u are referring to the 2hand weapon with the chance to charm or the 1 hand with the chance to freeze, then im afraid that no serious wizard would use these as the dps drop would be too severe( the dps on those weapons is crap) plus stunlock was already guaranteed by stormchaser proc. So help me understand the logic here. Wizards use wicked wind to stunlock , however this does not concern the development team.The development team is concerned that wizards who are ALREADY able to stunlock, will switch to some bad dps weapons to be able to proc charm and freeze like crazy?Why the hell would they do that when they can already (via wicked wind) perma freeze mobs? How does this make any sense whatsoever?
I also want to post my opinion on the wicked wind 0.125 reduction. I am not completely against the original nerf (0.25 to 0.125) but i disagree on the quantity and the reason of the nerf. The nerf makes sense if someone takes into account the buffed new legendaries that provide attack speed on slots like belt, chest, bracers and source. There is also a new buffed legendary wand that provides arcane on crit and has 1.61 to 1.65 attack speed, much higher than what could be found pre patch with arcane on crit. So all in all if wicked wind stayed at 0.25 co eff, it would proc even more crazy and in combination with shocking aspect would skyrocket wizard dps( for the sake of a balanced game lets assume that this is bad, although unclear how much). On the other hand, the drop to 0.125 is imo is too severe. My wizard has 1 billion gold in gear, attack speed 2.35, apoc 30 and 46% crit chance. While i can still manage to use diamond skin/frost nova/explosive blast to kill mobs it is no longer effective to do so. Improved archon kills so much faster than anything else you can try , its pretty much pointless to spec anything else than archon. To make classic melee wizard spec viable again(without archon) a slight buff to energy twister proc should be considered, anything between 0.175 and 0.2 sounds about right in my opinion. 0.25 feels a bit too high with the buffed ( due to legendaries) attack speed and 0.125 feels waaay too low (i have 1 billion in gear and using archon severely outclasses any varation of melee cm wizard in efficiency, aka farming speed!).
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09/25/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Madstrike
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


for the truth, at least those proc coeff...
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Sorry guys..Lylirra, all is well here - having a blast on PTR!


Well, not everyone is sitting on absurdly high attack speeds, but the ego stroking is cute. I guess if we all had a few hundred million gold, the patch wouldn't be a problem for us either.

Bottom Line: 2.63 attack speed is unreachable for the vast majority of wizards, so all is definitely not well.


I would have to agree with you. And I just hope he would consider other wizards first before saying that the build works, coz obviously, the wizard above has end gear items.


09/25/2012 02:49 AMPosted by chris
And this is where you go wrong the need to have nearly unattainable attack speed for a build to work is not okay. I agree that there should be some requirements to CM builds call it an entry barrier but not as high as 50% CC and 2.6 attacks per second that is to high. Proc rates should be so that you can make it work with around 40% CC and 2 attacks per second that seems reasonable and attainable. I'd say Storm Chaser could work with that on 0.3 proc and Wicked Wind probably with 0.2. Sure that would be a huge buff to ppl with 2.4+ attacks per second and high end CC but is'nt that fine? I mean at some point we're supposed to feel like we broke the game right? And right now a wizard just does not feel that way at all no matter how high end my gear is..


09/25/2012 03:04 AMPosted by Garon
We are frustrated at the continuous over-nerfing of skills so stay on point there instead of talking about how much more dps you can do in 105 (which I'm not doubting, MP should make farming much more fun for all gear levels)


09/25/2012 09:09 AMPosted by LaraCroft
why is one forced to play wwbarb in order to achieve an efficient farmer lol why is blizz even nerfing stormchaser still slower than wwbarb =)


I'd like to take the time to apologize for my post and these posters in particular.

Y'all were very right, I guess sometimes I get caught up in my own gear wanting to upgrade this and that and do not appreciate what I have. That can be said about anyone really. However I hate elitists mentality when it comes to nerfs and when I re-read my post it seems I unintentionally did what they do and tunnel visioned on my toon and said 'everything fine'.

Honestly I didn't even realize my APS was extremely high compared to the average till I looked on Diabloprogress and it ranks me as top 125 in the entire US for wizards...JUST to make this build viable? That's absolutely a problem and I apologize for not recognizing that, I really didn't have a clue just continued to stack APS.

It's especially unfair since you're sacrificing so much sheet dps just to do it when 99.5% of all wizards would never consider that or even realize that.

The requirements are still too high for what it does, I guess I just got too excited at what it CAN do when you achieve it, it really is an end-game build but that doesn't mean 99% should be completely shut out from doing it because they don't have insane attack speeds.

Sorry. I'll continue in the belief that .125 is too punishing. In fact it almost makes it completely worthless for lesser monster power modes, meteor crushes it in those.
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Well, not everyone is sitting on absurdly high attack speeds, but the ego stroking is cute. I guess if we all had a few hundred million gold, the patch wouldn't be a problem for us either.

Bottom Line: 2.63 attack speed is unreachable for the vast majority of wizards, so all is definitely not well.


I would have to agree with you. And I just hope he would consider other wizards first before saying that the build works, coz obviously, the wizard above has end gear items.


09/25/2012 02:49 AMPosted by chris
And this is where you go wrong the need to have nearly unattainable attack speed for a build to work is not okay. I agree that there should be some requirements to CM builds call it an entry barrier but not as high as 50% CC and 2.6 attacks per second that is to high. Proc rates should be so that you can make it work with around 40% CC and 2 attacks per second that seems reasonable and attainable. I'd say Storm Chaser could work with that on 0.3 proc and Wicked Wind probably with 0.2. Sure that would be a huge buff to ppl with 2.4+ attacks per second and high end CC but is'nt that fine? I mean at some point we're supposed to feel like we broke the game right? And right now a wizard just does not feel that way at all no matter how high end my gear is..


09/25/2012 03:04 AMPosted by Garon
We are frustrated at the continuous over-nerfing of skills so stay on point there instead of talking about how much more dps you can do in 105 (which I'm not doubting, MP should make farming much more fun for all gear levels)


09/25/2012 09:09 AMPosted by LaraCroft
why is one forced to play wwbarb in order to achieve an efficient farmer lol why is blizz even nerfing stormchaser still slower than wwbarb =)


I'd like to take the time to apologize for my post and these posters in particular.

Y'all were very right, I guess sometimes I get caught up in my own gear wanting to upgrade this and that and do not appreciate what I have. That can be said about anyone really. However I hate elitists mentality when it comes to nerfs and when I re-read my post it seems I unintentionally did what they do and tunnel visioned on my toon and said 'everything fine'.

Honestly I didn't even realize my APS was extremely high compared to the average till I looked on Diabloprogress and it ranks me as top 125 in the entire US for wizards...JUST to make this build viable? That's absolutely a problem and I apologize for not recognizing that, I really didn't have a clue just continued to stack APS.

It's especially unfair since you're sacrificing so much sheet dps just to do it when 99.5% of all wizards would never consider that or even realize that.

The requirements are still too high for what it does, I guess I just got too excited at what it CAN do when you achieve it, it really is an end-game build but that doesn't mean 99% should be completely shut out from doing it because they don't have insane attack speeds.

Sorry. I'll continue in the belief that .125 is too punishing. In fact it almost makes it completely worthless for lesser monster power modes, meteor crushes it in those.


Yeah I just checked myself on diabloprogress and see that I am listed as 285 in the US for attack speed at 2.25 aps, which is significantly lower than yours. I haven't jumped onto the PTR yet but have been following this thread and the ET stuff kind of closely to see if I have to think about changing specs come 1.05.

I agree, this build should not only be available to the top 1% of geared wizards and I think you reflection on your earlier statements show wisdom that I hope Blizz sees and takes action on. Kudos.
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Actually, I think MasterJay has the right gist of it. Wicked Wind is definitely working much better in 1.05 PTR, than in 1.04. I'm definitely not well geared, unlike say MasterJay, and I can make it work pretty easily. I'm actually amused, since MasterJay was less than enthused last night when he said "Twister/Melee build sucks now." But I think that was before he actually tried it in PTR. I too was very negative about the viability of WW before PTR and was trying to make Mistral Breeze work. I've definitely changed my tune that WW is the clear rune of choice again for me. So I would recommend that anyone that hasn’t yet logged in to PTR should try it first before dismissing Energy Twister out of hand.

The key is that Frost Nova was seriously buffed and it makes the entire build viable again with Energy Twister, specifically with WW. Unfortunately, we badly need a tweak to the proc for non-WW runes, which just can't compete with WW. And that's the key here. WW is stationary and predictable, which makes it synergize so MUCH better than the other runes with Frost Nova (and the guaranteed 3s stun lock we have with Frost Nova on elites, regardless of your attack speed). The twisters from the non-WW runes just keep passing through enemies, so you're not being as efficient in having multiple twisters sitting on top of elites. I'd love to be able to try the other runes more reliably, but I just don't think isn't as viable. For example, 1.05-PTR Mistral Breeze feels about where it is right now in 1.04, while WW feels "buffed."


Thanks for that, and that's part of the reason I guess I got carried away with thinking everything is fine because of how horrible it was on live then suddenly on PTR everything was actually working.

Keyword: actually working. It shouldn't just 'actually work' it should preform damn amazing if you're gearing just for it and honestly I can switch to meteor and it only preforms a little less and mainly in the first couple seconds and I have a 5% twister ring (meaning when i switch to meteor I do 5% less CC) and that's with only 20apoc, with 3 apoc sources meteor would catch performance at a -5% CC disadvantage.

It needs to not be .125 - I got carried away, everyone else is pretty right. They do need to realize your second point though and not test it on live because on live it is horrible with the less hp and the less freeze duration.

Yes I'm still in firm belief that moving twisters needs a bump up from WW, which WW even needs a minor bump up.

09/25/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Madstrike
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


^This looks good
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 9/25/2012 4:53 PM PDT
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09/25/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Madstrike
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


I like this idea. Should be different proc stationary twisters. Good idea to test out to see if it makes the spec variants viable.
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Yeah I just checked myself on diabloprogress and see that I am listed as 285 in the US for attack speed at 2.25 aps, which is significantly lower than yours. I haven't jumped onto the PTR yet but have been following this thread and the ET stuff kind of closely to see if I have to think about changing specs come 1.05.

I agree, this build should not only be available to the top 1% of geared wizards and I think you reflection on your earlier statements show wisdom that I hope Blizz sees and takes action on. Kudos


Thanks I appreciate that man. Yah with 2.25 base you can likely pull off energy twister too, switching out magic weapon for slow time / stretch time to push you to near my base and help you actually do more damage output in the long run..no reason to do this on live though only benefit on monster power. You'd be set, however you have an apoc AND meteor reduction. Meteor is going to preform better for you, did you intentionally gear for it? That's a damn nice source I'm jelly lol. Meteor will rock for you on PTR - just gotta be careful about the first few seconds, gotta play almost semi ranged before you go full on tanking.

09/25/2012 04:58 PMPosted by Reuel
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


I like this idea. Should be different proc stationary twisters. Good idea to test out to see if it makes the spec variants viable.


Yes I'd also been suggesting this kinda thing for awhile with even different proc co-efficient on merging tornados / signature tornados. I also do believe merging tornados had different proc rates before the across the board change in 1.04, I can't confirm that though.
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 9/25/2012 5:03 PM PDT
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Yeah I just checked myself on diabloprogress and see that I am listed as 285 in the US for attack speed at 2.25 aps, which is significantly lower than yours. I haven't jumped onto the PTR yet but have been following this thread and the ET stuff kind of closely to see if I have to think about changing specs come 1.05.

I agree, this build should not only be available to the top 1% of geared wizards and I think you reflection on your earlier statements show wisdom that I hope Blizz sees and takes action on. Kudos


Thanks I appreciate that man. Yah with 2.25 base you can likely pull off energy twister too, switching out magic weapon for slow time / stretch time to push you to near my base and help you actually do more damage output in the long run..no reason to do this on live though only benefit on monster power. You'd be set, however you have an apoc AND meteor reduction. Meteor is going to preform better for you, did you intentionally gear for it? That's a damn nice source I'm jelly lol. Meteor will rock for you on PTR - just gotta be careful about the first few seconds, gotta play almost semi ranged before you go full on tanking.


The source was a lucky find I guess since I hadn't seen the meteor build variants until after I got it. It was lucky 1d 12hr poach at a relatively reasonable cost. I got veeery lucky a while back with a manticore drop that I sold for lots and was able to get my chantos set and a couple other upgrades. All it took was being lucky once. :) I'll have try the meteor variant if I have time to get onto the PTR. I just hate kiting with a passion, I don't have the gear for archon, so if some variant of a CM build doesn't work for me, well, I'm SOL.

In any event, I hope Blizz takes all the feedback into account and tries a slight bump in the coeeficient as suggested above. I really enjoy the melee build.
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09/25/2012 05:00 PMPosted by MasterJay
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


You might want to put that to test.. I did some spreadsheet'ing yep I know boring and numbing but it helps.. and indeed WW will work fine at a proc rate of 0.166 or rather 0.175 on the other hand for moving Energy twisters its a bit more complicated because you can not assume small confined areas meaning more hits which means I assumed 3 hits per twister on average which is allot. So for Storm Chaser to work with medium/upper highend gear it would need to have at least 0.3 to 0.335 proc rate.

As base for these calculations I used 2 Attacks per second, 40% CC, 15 Arcane on Crit, 600 LoH. That is gear that can be considered medium to upper level end game gear. Now that is still fairly high but considering the capabilities of this build I'd say its fair. And if proc rates are set at the higher suggested value that leaves just a little bit more room to joggle around with stats. For example if you have 20-25 APoC you can reduce crit chance by about 5%.. it means you're a bit more flexible.. sure you will still need to hit certain levels of specific stats but it would be more attainable not just for the 1% of wizards!

This would leave Mistral Rune as "entry" Spell if its proc rate is set to 0.3 and from there people could build up towards Storm Chaser and for final endgame Wicked Wind.
Edited by chris#22306 on 9/25/2012 5:26 PM PDT
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heres the real question....

if CM and WW are considered specs people really like, wouldnt these be considered the most successful specs in the game, and something to build on?

see, if witch doctors and monks are generally avoided, then why not buff them up till they have something thats equally as powerful?

why not buff up rarely used skills, like for us wizards, mirror image is terrible, cause it doesnt really ever come in handy, and living lightning is so slow to cast, and such low damage that its nearly useless from that alone. why not fix wave of force, so it has some actual desirable use?

why take things that obviously work very well, and make them useless?

once energy twisters final nerf hits.... what point is there in using it?
your nerfing it to the point where it becomes obsolete or ineffective.
basically putting it in this odd position where we cant get close enough to a mob to cast it, without risking getting 1 shot, or we have random damage we cant control, which makes it almost useless by default (death blossom anyone?)

every class should be getting better, not worse.

bring up witch doctors to have a more viable build then spamming zombie bears.
make monks comparable to barbs.
fix the 80% of useless passive skills DHs have.
make more wiz skills attractive AND effective - if you want to promote build diversity.

currently on live, I can use both energy armor, or storm armor - and both have signifigant advantages and disadvantages.
nerfing storm armor into oblivion like it is on test right now, makes it so only energy armor makes sense now.

why would I use ice armor, when its only a reactive, meaning I got to get hit for it to do anything, and under too many conditions, even 1 hit = getting 1 shot, so that alone makes ice armor useless.

theres huge things to fix across all classes.
nerfing things that obviously work, isnt a step in the right direction.
its a step backwards.

you want to promote build diversity, make skills better, not worse.

and make lesser appealing classes more appealing to the generl population, so we start seeing more monks and witch doctors, and less barb and dhs.

the game should be getting better, not worse.
Edited by Kunaak#1473 on 9/25/2012 6:24 PM PDT
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Totally agree with you guys, the amount of proc rate nerfed on ET was quite an overkill for the melee build.

Even with the .5 proc rate on SC (1.04), I didn't see any top end melee wizards build their character around proc effect of some legendary items. This is because this build requires so much elements to function together: IAS, APOC, CC, LOH, and your DPS number in this build is just a pure luxury. Especially with the APOC requirement, pretty much you're looking at either a wand or a source. And I failed to see any "phenomenal proc effect" being offered on any of these two types of legendary items. Maybe "This wand finds your death humorous" was too phenomenal for Inferno Act 3, and it would prevent the mobs from attacking and laugh to death with you. Maybe....

Depends on the final patch notes, my PC will probably not gonna see 1.05 on it. Very tired of gearing up to get nerfed. And the dread to spend money just to see the build gets nerfed again is just too much and too frustrating.
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I just tried mistral breeze + eb on 1.05 mp 4. can't even kill azmodan without massive kiting past 3+ hellgrasp rounds. and my hp recovery is so low with it.

i would suggest if you are going to nerf it to the ground, to up the damage by factor of 5times or more. so that as a lifesteal recovery mechanism , it might be viable.

all the moving runes other than wicked winds really need to have their proc rates back at 0.2 -> 0.4 or so. wicked winds needs to be at 0.2 perhaps.

literally, seems like wizards cannot play without massive attack speed now in act3. I will have to regear just to get a functional build for 1.05

tried disintegrate, died immediately to the first fireball on azmodan due to pathetic life recovery from loh.

tried living lightning-starpact = not enough attack speed to pull it off.

--
also, i still cannot move past prismatic armor. i still have to use prismatic armor. if you really want to make other armors more diverse then I say all armors need to have the armor or resistance buff of prismatic, then change the rune effects of prismatic to something else. (eg: every 0.5 seconds, prismatic armor fires an ball of fire or cone of cold or chain lightning , disintegration ray. kind of like the 7 colors of primatic shield/wall in dungeons and dragons)

--
have your dev team actually tried out any of the builds? eg: take 100m, spend on the real ah, use that functionally equipment and try to take down azmodan in mp4 or higher. using the various skills build, are any of the functionally working.. all I can say is by linking loh to procs, as well as the lifesteal nerf. (eg: barbs get the most lifesteal, dual wielders get two weapons worth of lifesteal/loh). I would suggest denerfing lifesteal. or update vigoron or galvanising ward to include both lifesteal and loh effects.
(eg: vigoron and galvanising = all regeneration skills have double effect, lifesteal and life on hit are doubled).
Edited by chrisloup#6305 on 9/25/2012 9:26 PM PDT
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09/24/2012 10:22 PMPosted by akatsuki
this change literally kills off my character

I really appreciate your character names, lol
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09/25/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Madstrike
Change WW proc to 1/6(0.166..) and other runes to 1/5(0.2)!


lets spread the word here, maybe the dev team will listen and test these procs to see how it goes, additionally I think mistral breeze could be somewhere in the middle of those procs since it is cheaper to cast but not as good as wicked wind. Im sure WW already works for the super geared wizzies out there, but the build shouldnt need a chantodos set(not to mention crazy amounts of attack speed, crit chance, apoc on other gear) as a pre requisite to work if you know what I mean...
Edited by Madstrike#1346 on 9/25/2012 9:10 PM PDT
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Axxius:
I am currently unable to log into PTR (getting insta-disconnected right after getting in).

What areas are you doing fine in with the 1.0.5 WW? Try Fields of Slaughter (A3 take Bridge of Korsikk wp).

Edit: NM, found your other wiz. Yes, that is way less expensive than mine, let alone MasterJay's. So I am even more intrigued to see where exactly you are doing fine with the nerfed WW.
Yes, I can do Fields of Slaughter, but if I die it's more the affix on a given elite than any given monster (Fire Chains for example). But I've been trying out multiple locations and acts, since monsters are all lvl63 if you're doing any monster levels. Wicked Wind is definitely functional and an improvement over the crap we have with Mistral Breeze in 1.04. It's taken me a bit to get use to WW again. Now I don't want to give the wrong impression that it's the equivalent of StormChaser-1.04 or gonna be better than Meteor in 1.05 (which looks pretty awesome, but I haven't had a lot success there yet). We're definitely "nerfed." But the Twisters are still working pretty good for me. So I'll be probably sticking with it for awhile while I get practice farming mid-to-high level monster levels. With your gear, I'd be surprised if you're not doing a lot better than me (though your attack speed is slower, which could definitely present some issues).
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Energy Twister and Prismatic provide the viability of melee wiz, which is the key for "build diversity"

In 1.05, it's quite likely that most wiz builds will be composed on the base of blade and meteor..so..nerf them back again in 1.06??
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dunno if already has been discussed,
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6714701985
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