Diablo® III

I don't care if you think TL2 is better.

I may be speaking for a very small minority of Diablo 3 players here, but I personally am really not interested at all whether you think Torchlight 2 or any other similar game is a superior product to Diablo 3. At that, I find it simply mind boggling that somehow or other threads of the nature of "Torchlight 2 so much better learn your stuff Blizzard" or "Why you make so bad game blizzzzz???!?! qq" or anything of the like makes it regularly into the "Most popular forum threads" list on the homepage. To all of those out there who post these threads or reply in their support, I have something I feel is particularly important to say, and I sincerely hope you take it to heart:

If you find Torchlight 2 or any other game to be superior or more entertaining than Diablo 3 for any reason, please take your business to the product you prefer rather than wasting peoples' time who actually enjoy Diablo 3 by whining about your perception of it being a flawed product.

I for one have been playing Diablo 3 since release, and I have been quite enjoying it. I would agree that it does have a "work in progress" feel to it, and there are many ways that Blizzard has available to work with the slate they have presented in order to bring it closer to a more complete game that I would like to see pursued. However, I would also raise what I feel is a particularly important point in the matter: being a Diablo player right from the release of the original game, I can tell you that Diablo 2 at release was a spectacularly dissapointing product. The class balancing was absolutely terrible (pretty much sorc, amazon, or go home for a very long time...barbs/pallies were ok but meh, and necromancers were almost entirely dumb...and even then each class only had 1 or 2 viable attack skills, 3 at most), the game itself was easy and seemingly pointless by comparison, end game content was almost entirely pointless since loot had better chances of spawning good properties at mid levels, and all around many people just went straight back to the original since it was far more satisfying (yes I know class balancing is a joke in Diablo 1, but it was still far more satisfying at the time). With that being said, I challenge ANYONE who has ever even looked at a Blizzard product to spend a week playing Diablo 1, then spend a week playing Diablo 2, and at the end look anyone in the eye and tell them that after the time and work Blizzard has put into Diablo 2 that it is still an inferior game to the original. Frankly, the final product of Diablo 2 as it currently stands is so far superior to the original release that it would be difficult to believe it is the same product.

Now with that, lets take a moment and actually analyze what you are doing when you make threads complaining about your belief that other games are superior and Blizzard is bad. So you come on the Diablo 3 forums after a lively, enjoyable session of Torchlight 2, and post something like "Hey guys, I just played this like Torchlight 2 game, its so fun, I like it a lot and Diablo 3 is bad guys, you should come play TL2 guys Blizzard is bad learn from your competition Blizzard" (think I just nailed almost every thread people have made on the issue flawlessly, call me on it if you'd like). So that's great, you enjoy another game more than this one at the moment. Congratulations, have a cookie! Lets take a moment and reflect on how many people you just helped by posting a rage thread about how much Diablo 3 sucks in your own opinion:

-You successfully irritated someone who enjoys relaxing playing Diablo 3 and is willing to be patient while Blizzard continues to develop and improve upon their very open-slate product
-You showed Blizzard where to look if they ever want to try to compare with other company's products and see what ideas they can come up with...because companies worth as much as Blizzard that also report steady profit essentially every quarter never think to check their competitions' products...
-You may even have brought a "Diablo 3 sucks" thread to the Diablo 3 frontpage depending on if you get enough replies, because people thinking about trying Diablo 3 who may very well enjoy it (especially if they let Blizzard actually work on their product instead of flooding them with "oh my god you suck make games like this other company or you just suck"...but hey that brings me to the next point)
-You made your daily contribution to the tremendous storm of useless advice that Blizzard's various product development and customer service teams have to sift through to find viable, meaningful and potentially helpful suggestions other people may have actually put some thought into before they were submitted.

Wait a minute, did I really say the word "helped" before this list? Wow, what a typo! I think I meant to say something more like "flung faeces about wildly like a raging monkey"! Seriously, when I get home from a day at work and I'm about to sit down and relax with some gaming time, I simply don't need to see "Why TL2 is so much better" in the news feeds for popular forum threads when I come on to see what announcements Blizzard has made. Quite frankly, I for one, and I believe I speak for many on this, am far more likely to quite Diablo 3 due to obnoxious people constantly complaining about how they want this, that, or the other thing buffed or nerfed, or how they find some other game more enjoyable, et cetera than by any reasoning they try to offer up in their rage posts. Unless the objective is to undermine Blizzard by being tremendously inconsiderate to your fellow gamers, please PLEASE bear in mind that such rage threads serve only to damage; it is exceptionally rare that positive changes that are widely appreciated come of such things.

On that note, I would like to raise a little bit of Blizzard's development history. Does anybody here remeber such titles as Warcraft, Warcraft II, Diablo, Starcraft, or Diablo II (and all associated expansions)? I think it is fair to say that these were all monumental for many reasons. It was the Warcraft franchise that pioneered the real time strategy genre; even today, you can still load up a round of the original Warcraft and it still produces a very thorough, competative, and enjoyable experience. Indeed, it is still comparatively rare to see any real time strategy game released that does not follow the basic dynamics introduced in Warcraft (resources harvested from limited supplies on the game map, unites produced at buildings, villager type units to build and gather, population support required for all units and provided by basic supply type buildings). Much in the same way, Diablo was the trend setter for dungeon crawl type games, and although they have diversified more than the real time strategy genre, I think it is fair to say that Diablo II likely still has more regular players than many games that have been released within the last year. There must be some common factor with these products, I think it would be fair to say, and I would like to propose a theory on the matter. I personally believe that all of the above mentioned titles were made by a Blizzard that made games to their own tastes. Back then, Blizzard's products were just that, and they made sure to make reminders of it. Although they were open to constructive feedback, the attitude was quite simple: "We made this game, and it is our game. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it." Now, lets move on to the next most obvious release: World of Warcraft (before you rage, I left Warcraft III out because I did not play it theroughly, so I cannot fairly comment on it). The original implementation of World of Warcraft was at least somewhat in keeping with the rigid "our game" attitude of the Blizzard of old: leveling actually took time and effort, setting your character up took thought and a lot of work, and making any end game kill was always something to be proud of. However, as time went on, the attitude was shifted more towards "we would like everyone to be a part of our game" and Blizzard started taking many, many common suggestions to content development, for better or for worse. They started implementing systems of mindlessly running about to pick up all your basic necesities without having to plan or think about it (daily quests? Yay, lets kill the exact same 3 monsters every day, sounds fun and challenging!). Encounter design started shifting more towards inclusiveness first and difficulty later (until you got deep into the third tier of raiding content, progression kills that were actually satisfying were few and far between, even considering a very casual group of players). I personally decided enough was enough when it was decided that raid content would have easy mode and hard mode on separate instance lockouts; I can deal with having challenge modes for bonus loot or just for fun (like the way they did Ulduar, which was in my opinion the last decent dungeon they released in the time I played, and even then was a bit on the easy side), but clean out the dungeon on easy mode and get your group so geared up on the free loot that hard mode becomes essentially a pushover when it becomes available? Are you kidding? The whole point of the gameplay design for World of Warcraft on the PVE front was to provide a progressive challenge to the players that required that they put in the effort to do their part inside and outside the dungeon, between taking the time to plan out and harvest all the necessary equipent and reagents for the raids and actually coordinating to get the jobs done inside the dungeon. Personally, I found the decision to change it over to a system of just doing dailies for everything and anything related to the basic necesities of progress, and not having to really care about ever preparing gear to start raiding because you can steamroll easymodes in little more than quest blues and pick up free epics was quite insulting to the original concept of World of Warcraft. Moreover, the core of the reasoning for those changes can likely still be found festerring in the World of Warcraft suggestion forums, where Blizzard seems to spend countless hours listening to what they can try to do to make World of Warcraft more inclusive to every single gamer in the market. The very same rotten sprout waiting to blossum, right here on the Diablo 3 forums, right now, every single time a rage thread about how bad Diablo 3 is because someone likes another game gets popular.

With all of that said and done, I would ask that you please consider what you are doing when you want to make a forum thread regarding how good you think one game is or how bad you think this one. I do understand that many people are frustrated with the amount of work that is still in the books for Diablo 3, but the fundamental nature of the electronic entertainment market requires products on the shelf, and quite often before they are ready. What really sets Blizzard aside from the overwhelming majority of electronic entertainment companies is that they never abandon a product they have released; I mean, even Diablo II has still been updated within the last year, and even its expansion is 11 years old now. Considering how far Diablo II has come over the decade and a half Blizzard has spent developing it post-release, and how open-slated Diablo III is, I can promise that if we as the gaming community allow Blizzard the space to develop this game the way they have done many times before, without putting a world's worth of pressure on them every time someone else releases a decent title, that positive improvements to the game will come faster and far more frequently.

So at the end of it all, for what its worth, please consider what you are doing when you post game comparisons in the forums. It is not going to improve the game for you to the point that you find your opinions reversed; if anything, its just going to kill it for those of us who actually do enjoy Diablo III.

From one gamer to a community of others,

-Willeh

p.s. pardon the epic text wall, but I had to get it off my mind.
Edited by BigWilleh#1801 on 10/1/2012 9:11 PM PDT
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Sorry, didn't read your entire post ;P

The funny thing is if Diablo-fans didn't keep coming to the games defense these TL-fans would leave. You misunderstood if you think TL-fans care if you quit diablo or not, most are just here for entertainment(ie surfing the net at work). For example i just read some threads about diablos "mammary glands". Does it enhance my gaming experience? No, but its damn entertaining. Anyway, even as a say this i know that human nature will prevent Diablo-fans from ignoring the TL threads here.

Enjoy your game anyways.
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Good lord if a TL:DR was ever needed, it was in the OP. But I'm trying to stick with it and read through it just so I can respond with something more than a stupid meme.

10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
If you find Torchlight 2 or any other game to be superior or more entertaining than Diablo 3 for any reason, please take your business to the product you prefer rather than wasting peoples' time who actually enjoy Diablo 3 by whining about your perception of it being a flawed product.


So what if I still play D3 from time to time? I find TL2 superior and more entertaining than D3 but that doesn't mean I can't play it anymore. This falls into the same old tired comment of "go play ___ if you find it so much better". News flash, people can play more than one game at a time. Plus, if I'm playing multiple games in the same genre, I will compare them.

10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
I challenge ANYONE who has ever even looked at a Blizzard product to spend a week playing Diablo 1, then spend a week playing Diablo 2, and at the end look anyone in the eye and tell them that after the time and work Blizzard has put into Diablo 2 that it is still an inferior game to the original.


I find the ambiance much more enjoyable in D1. I find the gameplay much more enjoyable in D1. I have more 'OH !@#$' moments in D1. The best part of D2, was going back to Tristram...even if only for a little while. I find Diablo 1 to be superior when compared to Diablo 2. Sorry, but that's how opinions work.

Admittedly, I'm a little jaded towards D2 these days. The way people put it a pedestal and worship it irritates me.

10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
Frankly, the final product of Diablo 2 as it currently stands is so far superior to the original release that it would be difficult to believe it is the same product.


I agree. Was this what you were actually talking about previously and not D1 vs D2?

I tried to read that gigantic paragraph in the middle about Blizzard's history but just couldn't. Kept losing my place so I skipped it. It actually killed my desire to keep reading. Sorry, that happens with walls of text.

At the end of the day, I like TL2 (currently) more than D3. But I like the Blizzard forums more because they have a nice structure and layout. I can also find lots of threads that I will either enjoy reading or commenting in. If I happen to see a TL2 thread, I'll read it and may even comment. After all, I play that game as well.
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omg, China called - they want their wall back.

On another note, if you don't want to hear about others games opinion, then leave this forum? A ton of people enjoy tl2, of course you gonna see a ton of thread from these people since the game just launched, you're not forced to read them if it irritate you.

On my computer (not even counting the ps3) i have currently diablo3/torchlight2/Path of Exile/Dark soul/GW2/Ragnarok/etc.; they all can coexist just fine, true story.
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10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
If you find Torchlight 2 or any other game to be superior or more entertaining than Diablo 3 for any reason, please take your business to the product you prefer rather than wasting peoples' time who actually enjoy Diablo 3 by whining about your perception of it being a flawed product.


Read up to here and stopped, idiot can't read subforum's title and caption "Discuss non-Blizzard game/title"
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10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
"Hey guys, I just played this like Torchlight 2 game, its so fun, I like it a lot and Diablo 3 is bad guys, you should come play TL2 guys Blizzard is bad learn from your competition Blizzard" (think I just nailed almost every thread people have made on the issue flawlessly, call me on it if you'd like).

Wrong, I dont care about people enjoying diablo3, I have something against people who only speak !@#$ about other games like TL2 and then say D3 is the best thing since th bees knees or any other game vs. d3 in that manner. thus i will then point out all of d3's flaws with supporting solid reasons and refute their claims altogether and strike at every single flaw they have just provided with such comparisons and question their integrity as an actual gamer.

It's what makes d3 forum very fun.

p.s. if you enjoy diablo3 simply because it is then my hat's off to you.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 10/2/2012 2:19 AM PDT
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Diablo III isn't just a game many don't enjoy.

It's literally a turkey slap to the face of gamers.

We were insulted by the Lead Developer, who insisted we were all wrong and that Diablo II wasn't very fun - and that he knew what fun really was.
We were insulted by the Development team as a whole, who spent months crafting "Whimsey Shire" to mock the people who didn't like the World of Warcraft art style employed.
We were insulted by the entire company of Blizzard, who shipped an unfinished product that was lambasted by the gaming public, only for the very same people to then insult the creator of the very franchise they'd ruined for voicing the public's exact concerns. This culminated in the Lead Developer's infamous "!@#$ that loser" comment.

Diablo III sold 10,000,000 copies and in doing so created a number of unhappy gamers so large that it's literally spread to every major forum on the internet.

Blizzard deserve every bad thing they get after the atrocity that is Diablo III, and the fuster cluck that has been their handling of it.
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10/02/2012 02:32 AMPosted by ZehDon
Diablo III sold 10,000,000 copies and in doing so created a number of unhappy gamers so large that it's literally spread to every major forum on the internet.


in games sales mean nothing and retained players mean everything.
+1.
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D3 sucks , it is the worst game blizzard has ever made .
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10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
I may be speaking for a very small minority of Diablo 3 players here


No, you're not.

10/02/2012 02:32 AMPosted by ZehDon
We were insulted by the Lead Developer, who insisted we were all wrong and that Diablo II wasn't very fun - and that he knew what fun really was.


Yeah, it's totally not like TL2 fans who keep telling others they shouldn't be enjoying D3. :P
Edited by JohnnyZeWolf#1953 on 10/2/2012 6:23 AM PDT
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10/02/2012 06:18 AMPosted by JohnnyZeWolf
Yeah, it's totally not like TL2 fans who keep telling others they shouldn't be enjoying D3. :P


I tell people to enjoy what they're enjoying. If you hate TL2 get the fk away from it do yourself a favor and don't read TL2 threads obviously?
If you love diablo3 you're in the wrong fking section of the forums to be reading about it. Even worse to say it's BETTER than something else in this particular section unless you want to be a drunken alcoholic making no coherent sense awaitng to be lit on fire with enlightenment.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 10/2/2012 11:27 AM PDT
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10/01/2012 09:10 PMPosted by BigWilleh
I personally am really not interested at all whether you think Torchlight 2 or any other similar game is a superior product to Diablo 3.


Stopped reading there. That is a hell of a long post for someone who is not interested...
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