Diablo® III

[Suggestion] Fixing Tempest Rush

- Diablo III (Monk)
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Hey guys, Druin here!

You may have seen my post regarding Tempest Rush vs 1.0.5 Whilrwind...
Well, I am back with a MUCH more constructive version of that post on the PTR forums.

I would REALLY appreciate it if all my monk friends could just go to this link:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6758727222

Hit "like" unless you dislike the idea (in which case PLEASE tell me why!!!) and maybe bump the post or shout out some comments that aren't "monks are terrible nerf WW barbs!"

Note: I know that the cost of TR is the least of our worries right now. I am not going to campaign for this change then sit back complacently if we get it. This class needs work and we all know it.
However, this change would be EXTREMELY easy for them to implement and it is VERY topical.
Any change in the right direction is a good thing at this point.


TL;DR:
The change to Whirlwind is EXACTLY what I want to see changed for Tempest Rush in order to make the skill viable. Please copy paste the Code from the new Whirlwind into the code for Tempest Rush! <3

The Gist:
The change to WW:
Fury cost from 16 to 10
Current cost is now a flat value per cycle + an additional cost based on attack speed. Changing this slightly so that the new continual cost is 7 flat + 3 per cycle. The end result is that the cost discrepancy between slow weapons and fast weapons has been greatly reduced.


My Proposed Change to TR:
cost: 15 Spirit on start up + 3 Spirit per "tick" + 7 Spirit per second


As always, thank you guys for being a fantastic community and I appreciate your support!

-Druin, the happy monk
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/2/2012 11:19 AM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Can one rune of tempest rush leave some tornadoes or slip stream (air effect) that does DOT? That would make me want to pick up this skill.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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10/02/2012 12:44 PMPosted by dracolich
Can one rune of tempest rush leave some tornadoes or slip stream (air effect) that does DOT? That would make me want to pick up this skill.


While I sincerely see the attraction of something like this, I think making monks anything more like barbarians will only hurt the game in the long run.

I would much prefer to see our class remain clearly different and just edit mechanics and skill-ratios until we can viably play the game in a different way.

Adding a rune like that would also make it the only viable rune which would limit build choices.
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I feel your pain. I do. But here's the thing...

The TR animation clearly shows the monk using a 2H weapon, spinning it to propel the monk forward. Given that this wouldn't even work with 2 one hand weapons, receiving a penalty for using it isn't that out of the question. I didn't like it when I first tried using TR, but after thinking about it, I just accepted it for what it is.

I like the mechanic the more I think about it. You take a hit in some areas for using a two hander, so why not gain the benefit of quick movement speed? You want to hit faster with 1h weapons, so then you lose the ability to propel yourself with a 2h weapon you don't have.

Barbs aren't spinning a weapon, they're spinning their body. The type of weapon shouldn't matter.

TR with a two hander requires some sort of spirit regen to offset the slow attack speed. I take the 35% passive to fill my globe. When I do TR with dual wield, I use exalted soul and I find that that gives the same result.
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Appreciate your work, Druin! Thank you. Have liked your post on the PTR Feedback forum.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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I feel your pain. I do. But here's the thing...

The TR animation clearly shows the monk using a 2H weapon, spinning it to propel the monk forward. Given that this wouldn't even work with 2 one hand weapons, receiving a penalty for using it isn't that out of the question. I didn't like it when I first tried using TR, but after thinking about it, I just accepted it for what it is.

I like the mechanic the more I think about it. You take a hit in some areas for using a two hander, so why not gain the benefit of quick movement speed? You want to hit faster with 1h weapons, so then you lose the ability to propel yourself with a 2h weapon you don't have.

Barbs aren't spinning a weapon, they're spinning their body. The type of weapon shouldn't matter.

TR with a two hander requires some sort of spirit regen to offset the slow attack speed. I take the 35% passive to fill my globe. When I do TR with dual wield, I use exalted soul and I find that that gives the same result.


As far as I know, Blizz is not really in the business of balancing their game on a lore-by-lore basis.

So while I can understand that the magical 2h staff that you spin (Even if you have a real staff equipped) makes you "feel" like this is a 2h only skill, I doubt very much that Blizz meant it to be that way.

Furthermore, I can't really understand why you would want to penalize people who want to play the game a certain way.

I have no issues with you using a 2h wep and Tempest Rush forever but I do take issue with the idea that I am not allowed to use one of my skills because I have chosen a high-attack speed item build.

Besides, being completely okay with the idea that Barbarians have the freedom to equip whatever weapons they want and Monks are forced to use a specific type of item just irks me in the first place.
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As far as I know, Blizz is not really in the business of balancing their game on a lore-by-lore basis.

So while I can understand that the magical 2h staff that you spin (Even if you have a real staff equipped) makes you "feel" like this is a 2h only skill, I doubt very much that Blizz meant it to be that way.

Furthermore, I can't really understand why you would want to penalize people who want to play the game a certain way.

I have no issues with you using a 2h wep and Tempest Rush forever but I do take issue with the idea that I am not allowed to use one of my skills because I have chosen a high-attack speed item build.

Besides, being completely okay with the idea that Barbarians have the freedom to equip whatever weapons they want and Monks are forced to use a specific type of item just irks me in the first place.


Well, I guess the way I see it, I have to make adjustments in either case. If I use a 2H, I use one passive. If I do DW, I use another, and I get the same effect.

My question to you is this: Why should a DW monk get to use TR without modifying anything when a 2H build has to. That's all I'm saying.
Edited by Kryptoh#1415 on 10/3/2012 9:51 AM PDT
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Ya know, I see your point. The accepted issue has always been that 2h weapons have slower resource regen/issues. If you "fix" a barb skill that affects this due to attack speed, then why not other skills for other classes?

I'm back in the "Fix TR" camp. :)

Blizz fix this!
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Well, I guess the way I see it, I have to make adjustments in either case. If I use a 2H, I use one passive. If I do DW, I use another, and I get the same effect.

My question to you is this: Why should a DW monk get to use TR without modifying anything when a 2H build has to. That's all I'm saying.


Currently, a duel wield build with ANY increased attack speed gear flat out can't use TR for anything but a short-burst movement speed buff unless you spend millions and millions of gold on spirit regen gear and CRAZY dps so you can use inefficient spirit regen skills and even then it is barely usable.

A 2h build, on the other hand, can use TR infinitely (for damage) with >10 spir/sec which is a very easy amount to attain without gimping yourself (SoJ + Inna's hat + Chant of Res + BoH:Circ + Templar 12%).

For reference here is what is required to use TR (for damge) with duel wield:
Assume (2) 1.4 speed fist weps. This means you have an attack speed of 1.61.
This means that TR, instead of costing 10 spirit / second with a 2h wep, costs 16 spirit per second.

To TR forever you now need >16 spirit / second. Unfortunately spirit/sec from items caps at 6.8 spir/sec so you can't just get 2.5spir/sec on both your fist weps. Instead you are forced to cap out at 6.8 from items then find another 9.2 elsewhere.

That "elsewhere" could be: SW:Inner Storm + MoH:Circ + CoR + Templar.

Now if you have ANY attack speed gear you are actually out of options for increasing your spirit / sec.

Currently, to use TR effectively, 2h users have to modify a little bit and 1h / duel wield users have to modify every single skill/item they have.

I would like this changed to: 2h users have to modify a little bit and 1h / duel wield users have to modify a little bit more.

Ya know, I see your point. The accepted issue has always been that 2h weapons have slower resource regen/issues. If you "fix" a barb skill that affects this due to attack speed, then why not other skills for other classes?

I'm back in the "Fix TR" camp. :)

Blizz fix this!


Haha, I wrote the above essay before seeing this post! Glad to know I have converted at least one person! :D
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/3/2012 10:35 AM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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let me get this clear.
since im not sure what you meant by tick.

the current tailwind eats 10 spirit per tick?
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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let me get this clear.
since im not sure what you meant by tick.

the current tailwind eats 10 spirit per tick?


Correct.

For every 1.0 attacks per second you have on your sheet, you will drain 10 spirit per second while channeling Tempest Rush: Tailwind
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well alright.
let me first say, I think from a balance standpoint what you proposed is very fair.

now to play devils advocate since agreement is overrated.
the #1 complaint you are going to run into is that tempest rush was fundamentally a 2h focused skill.
1.05 brings us a dashing strike that is super good for high APS, so I dont feel the need to compensate for high aps users.

that being said, I do agree that TR costs too much.
I think a monk shouldnt need to stack more than 3 items to achieve infinite tailwind without use of skills though.
since that alone is hard enough.

in 1.05 spirit stones and 2hs roll up to 2.5 spirit regen.
so when I say 3 items worth of spirit regen I mean 6-7 spirit per second.

but at the same time, is this fundamentally an issue with tailwind or with the monk spirit system in general.

I think its the latter, since I dont think this is the only skill that suffers from spirit famine.
Edited by Morionic#1764 on 10/3/2012 4:35 PM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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well alright.
let me first say, I think from a balance standpoint what you proposed is very fair.

now to play devils advocate since agreement is overrated.
the #1 complaint you are going to run into is that tempest rush was fundamentally a 2h focused skill.
1.05 brings us a dashing strike that is super good for high APS, so I dont feel the need to compensate for high aps users.

that being said, I do agree that TR costs too much.
I think a monk shouldnt need to stack more than 3 items to achieve infinite tailwind without use of skills though.
since that alone is hard enough.

in 1.05 spirit stones and 2hs roll up to 2.5 spirit regen.
so when I say 3 items worth of spirit regen I mean 6-7 spirit per second.

but at the same time, is this fundamentally an issue with tailwind or with the monk spirit system in general.

I think its the latter, since I dont think this is the only skill that suffers from spirit famine.


1. Thanks :D

2. If TR was meant to be a 2h skill, I would actually be okay with that. Not a lot I can do if they want to move the game in that direction.

However, my entire post is based around the fact that they JUST made a change to WW to make it more attack-speed friendly and it is arguably an IDENTICAL skill.

This makes me feel that Blizz does NOT want some skills to be 2h only and so I am bringing up TR to their attention to see if they really only want WW to be accessible to both builds or if that was just a starting point.

Note: If they really only want to change WW and have no interest in the other similar skills for similar classes (looking at you overpowered DH strafe!!!!!!!!!! <sarcasm>) I will be SEVERELY disappointed.

3. I think that spirit as a resource has fundamental issues and that plays a part in my problems with TR. However, even if we had better resources (see DH or Barb) there is still a strong indication that scaling a skill inversely with attack speed = anti-fun.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/3/2012 4:46 PM PDT
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