Diablo® III

[Suggestion] Fixing Tempest Rush

2.
I dont agree with the comparison to WW
barbs dont have an alternative WW skill.
monks have DS and TR.

WW is an essential combat skill that is used almost exclusively.
TR is a purely supplemental mobility skill.

and lastly, WW favored high as, they changed it slightly in favor of slower weapons.

we have a metagame right now that still favors high attack speed, and TR is one of the few skills that truly gives 2 handers an edge.

if you assume no passive spirit regen, current TR is fine.
higher AS means you can regen the spirit TR uses quickly.

its only because of the metagame of stacking lots and lots of spirit regen for infinite TR do we actually see a problem in this design.

and it can be argued that this simply gives 2h builds a niche in the end game monk.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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we have a metagame right now that still favors high attack speed, and TR is one of the few skills that truly gives 2 handers an edge.

if you assume no passive spirit regen, current TR is fine.
higher AS means you can regen the spirit TR uses quickly.

its only because of the metagame of stacking lots and lots of spirit regen for infinite TR do we actually see a problem in this design.

and it can be argued that this simply gives 2h builds a niche in the end game monk.


I suppose that argument works if you are in the business of promoting diversity through lack of options rather than bounty of options.

2h Monks do not have an edge. As long as 99% of our skills and builds are tied to attack speed, they never will.

All the current iteration of TR does, is make it used by close to 0% of the population.

Furthermore, everything you said about monks holds true for barbs.

barbs dont have an alternative WW skill.
monks have DS and TR.


If you think DS is an alternative to TR then barbs also have Furious Charge as well as WW to clip through mobs and move around.

WW is an essential combat skill that is used almost exclusively.
TR is a purely supplemental mobility skill.


That is certainly not by design. There is nothing about WW that makes it sustainable forever. It is SUPPOSED to be a supplementary skill.

WW is exactly as much an "essential combat skill" as TR. Barbs just happen to have Into The Fray which >>>>>>>> spir/sec skills and gear.

and lastly, WW favored high as, they changed it slightly in favor of slower weapons


WW, on its own, CLEARLY favors 2h weps. If you do not use Into The Fray (barbs version of our spir/sec gear) WW is nearly 100% unusable with fast 1h weps.

The change made using a 2h wep exactly 0% better. It was 100% targeted at making the life of fast 1h wep users easier.

I am happy to show the math here if you need it. But the 1.0.5 change to WW made it exactly as appealing for the ~1.00 APS crowd as it is in 1.0.4.

Lastly:
if you assume no passive spirit regen, current TR is fine.


If you assume no passive spirit regen, current TR is an unusable skill for every monk spec in the game.

Its entire value as a skill is derived from being able to increase its ABYSMAL duration through spirit regen.
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there's a lot to respond to but I'm only going to address one issue that I think is fundamental.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
I suppose that argument works if you are in the business of promoting diversity through lack of options rather than bounty of options.


so i think this statement would be a major point of disagreement from me.

I think when you say "bounty of options"
I think you are implying that all skills should be reasonably good with most builds, IE high or low attack speed. And that's what I disagree with.

I think day9 said what I'm about to say better than I can, but I can't find the video where he said it.

but in short, game balance is good, but if you balance it too much, you create an over sterilized environment.
A metagame is a good thing, and it's ultimately born from the imperfections of a game's design and programming, and exploits these imperfections.

If you remove them, you're removing an aspect of the game itself. In the case of tempest rush, you have a very low level metagame exploit. Tempest rush is much better for slow attack speed than high attack speed, and thus it can be exploited as such.

The question at hand is:
Is it okay for tempest rush to cost 2x more spirit at 2.0 AS than at 1.0 AS?
my answer is yes, it's absolutely okay.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
Its entire value as a skill is derived from being able to increase its ABYSMAL duration through spirit regen.

Also, comments like these are stupid in the context that I already conceded that tempest rush's cost is a bit high right now. So I won't be responding to them now or in the future.
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TR:SS + SW:BS = 145% Damage.

WW = 145% Damage.

Monks have items to regen spirit. Barbs do not have items to regen rage (cept the 4 piece IK).

You are suggesting that Monks should have a WW with no cost without making gear sacrifices. Looking at your gear, you are merely wanting to use the gear and setup you have to run an infinite WW.

Some FACTS:
Tempest Rush
Secondary
Cost: 15 Spirit plus an additional 10 Spirit while channeling
Charge directly through your enemies, knocking them back and hobbling them, slowing their movement by 60% for 2 seconds. Also deals 85% weapon damage while running.

Spirit Regen:
Ring: 2.5 (soj, so does not really count)
Helm: 2.5
Dual Wield: 7.5
Two Handed: 7.5

Add umm up... and you get... 20! And you only need 10! How about that! So without even USING a passive, you can get double the 10 you need from gear with perfect rolls. Now, perfect rolls are not possible. So you need to use:
Inner storm: 3
Exhalted Soul: 1
Chant of Resonance: 2

Either way, you are easily there as has been demonstrated already by lots of monks.

Oh yeah, and don't forget:
Northern Breeze
Reduces the channeling cost of Tempest Rush to 8 Spirit.

Your "grievance" is that you want to use your CURRENT gear and CURRENT spec AND have infinite TR.

Next topic please.
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10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
2h Monks do not have an edge. As long as 99% of our skills and builds are tied to attack speed, they never will.

most monk skills are pretty attack speed neutral, if 99% of our skills tied to attack speed, can you name 10 that favor high AS over 2h?

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
All the current iteration of TR does, is make it used by close to 0% of the population.

that goes for most skills for monk though, of the skills that aren't staples like cyclone, tempest rush is one of the more popular.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
Furthermore, everything you said about monks holds true for barbs.

This statement is vague and can't be responded to in a meaningful manner.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
If you think DS is an alternative to TR then barbs also have Furious Charge as well as WW to clip through mobs and move around.

furious charge has a 10 second cooldown, it doesn't actually give you any meaningful mobility. If we're talking about mobility in combat, we could talk about leap for barbs too.
or sudden assault for monks.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
That is certainly not by design. There is nothing about WW that makes it sustainable forever. It is SUPPOSED to be a supplementary skill.

I'll acknowledge that it wasn't supposed to be supplementary originally, but overnerfing the ability to use WW as a staple ability at this point would be foolish.
It's okay to nerf a metagame aspect if it's OP, but never a good idea to completely remove a metagame.

10/04/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Druin
WW, on its own, CLEARLY favors 2h weps. If you do not use Into The Fray (barbs version of our spir/sec gear) WW is nearly 100% unusable with fast 1h weps.

how does it clearly favor 2H weapons?
blood funnel favors high AS and crit chance
wind shear favors high AS

The change made using a 2h wep exactly 0% better. It was 100% targeted at making the life of fast 1h wep users easier.

I am happy to show the math here if you need it. But the 1.0.5 change to WW made it exactly as appealing for the ~1.00 APS crowd as it is in 1.0.4.

Not questioning the math, like I said, I think the idea that making a skill that is exactly 0% better for 2h's as with high attack speed is bad game design.
I'm more okay with it for barbarians based on the context that whirlwind has no suitable replacement.

but I am not okay with it in the context of monks.
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TR:SS + SW:BS = 145% Damage.

WW = 145% Damage.

Monks have items to regen spirit. Barbs do not have items to regen rage (cept the 4 piece IK). MONKS CAN ALREADY INFINITELY TR WITH GEAR/PASSIVES.

You are suggesting that Monks should have a WW with no cost without making gear sacrifices. Looking at your gear, you are merely wanting to use the gear and setup you have to run an infinite WW.

Some FACTS:
Tempest Rush
Secondary
Cost: 15 Spirit plus an additional 10 Spirit while channeling
Charge directly through your enemies, knocking them back and hobbling them, slowing their movement by 60% for 2 seconds. Also deals 85% weapon damage while running.

Spirit Regen:
Ring: 2.5 (soj, so does not really count)
Helm: 2.5
Dual Wield: 7.5
Two Handed: 7.5

Add umm up... and you get... 20! And you only need 10! How about that! So without even USING a passive, you can get double the 10 you need from gear with perfect rolls. Now, perfect rolls are not possible. So you need to use:
Inner storm: 3
Exhalted Soul: 1
Chant of Resonance: 2

Either way, you are easily there as has been demonstrated already by lots of monks.

Oh yeah, and don't forget:
Northern Breeze
Reduces the channeling cost of Tempest Rush to 8 Spirit.

Your "grievance" is that you want to use your CURRENT gear and CURRENT spec AND have infinite TR.

Next topic please.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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there's a lot to respond to but I'm only going to address one issue that I think is fundamental.

so i think this statement would be a major point of disagreement from me.

I think when you say "bounty of options"
I think you are implying that all skills should be reasonably good with most builds, IE high or low attack speed. And that's what I disagree with.

I think day9 said what I'm about to say better than I can, but I can't find the video where he said it.

but in short, game balance is good, but if you balance it too much, you create an over sterilized environment.
A metagame is a good thing, and it's ultimately born from the imperfections of a game's design and programming, and exploits these imperfections.

If you remove them, you're removing an aspect of the game itself. In the case of tempest rush, you have a very low level metagame exploit. Tempest rush is much better for slow attack speed than high attack speed, and thus it can be exploited as such.

The question at hand is:
Is it okay for tempest rush to cost 2x more spirit at 2.0 AS than at 1.0 AS?
my answer is yes, it's absolutely okay.

Also, comments like these are stupid in the context that I already conceded that tempest rush's cost is a bit high right now. So I won't be responding to them now or in the future.


I would totally agree with you if there was a meta!

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be focusing on a "unique" build and be excited about it. But right now, monks have exactly 1 build. I would like to see there be more than 1 and I think that TR could be viable if if wasn't in direct conflict with attack speed.

See the thing is, you CAN use TR "efficiently" right now, AS IS with insane gear. I don't think this promotes build diversity though. People with less than perfect gear should be able to use other builds imo.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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TR:SS + SW:BS = 145% Damage.

WW = 145% Damage.

Monks have items to regen spirit. Barbs do not have items to regen rage (cept the 4 piece IK). MONKS CAN ALREADY INFINITELY TR WITH GEAR/PASSIVES.

You are suggesting that Monks should have a WW with no cost without making gear sacrifices. Looking at your gear, you are merely wanting to use the gear and setup you have to run an infinite WW.

Some FACTS:
Tempest Rush
Secondary
Cost: 15 Spirit plus an additional 10 Spirit while channeling
Charge directly through your enemies, knocking them back and hobbling them, slowing their movement by 60% for 2 seconds. Also deals 85% weapon damage while running.

Spirit Regen:
Ring: 2.5 (soj, so does not really count)
Helm: 2.5
Dual Wield: 7.5
Two Handed: 7.5

Add umm up... and you get... 20! And you only need 10! How about that! So without even USING a passive, you can get double the 10 you need from gear with perfect rolls. Now, perfect rolls are not possible. So you need to use:
Inner storm: 3
Exhalted Soul: 1
Chant of Resonance: 2

Either way, you are easily there as has been demonstrated already by lots of monks.

Oh yeah, and don't forget:
Northern Breeze
Reduces the channeling cost of Tempest Rush to 8 Spirit.

Your "grievance" is that you want to use your CURRENT gear and CURRENT spec AND have infinite TR.

Next topic please.


lol!

When you use the word "FACTS" you might want to then follow it with things that are factually true. :P

What I like is how you actually flat out explained what I WISH was true and said "you should be happy with this!"

Trust me bud, I will be happy when TR costs 10 spirit per second! :D

<3
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/4/2012 3:59 PM PDT
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10/04/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Druin
Trust me bud, I will be happy when TR costs 10 spirit per second! :D


It does if your AS is 1. And if it is 2, you just need to take the right active, passives, and change out a couple pieces of gear.

You can't use echoing fury. You can't use that helm. You need to make gear changes just like everyone else. Blizzard is not going to hand deliver you a skill just because you stomp your feet.

The way barbs were before meant WW did not work - no matter what the gear. If they did not have IAS they could not generate rage. And if they had IAS they could not use WW. Get it? Monks have a choice. It would hurt your DPS, no doubt, to go to lower AS, but you can do it and you just need to change your passives and gear as you go up.

You personally ALREADY have the SOJ - the hardest item to get. Since your AS is 2, you need 20 spirit regen which is pretty much impossible. So you will have to settle for about 1.55 (no IAS using 2 fists).

Get:
Helm with 2.5
2 weapons with 3
Ring has 2
Use:
Inner storm: 3
Exhalted Soul: 1
Chant of Resonance: 2

Total: 16.5 I am almost positive that is enough to keep up a dual-wield setup. But I never tried it. 2 handers pack so much more punch with SW that there is no reason to not use a 2-hander for a TR build.

I get it. TR is a blast. I ran it for ages. But you made gear choices preventing the build.

Monks need SOOOOOO many other things, when we compare ourselves to barbs we look dumb and are 100% going to get negative feedback.
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You can't use echoing fury. You can't use that helm. You need to make gear changes just like everyone else. Blizzard is not going to hand deliver you a skill just because you stomp your feet.


What helm? I have never taken my Inna's off so I can't imagine you are talking to me?

The way barbs were before meant WW did not work - no matter what the gear. If they did not have IAS they could not generate rage. And if they had IAS they could not use WW. Get it? Monks have a choice. It would hurt your DPS, no doubt, to go to lower AS, but you can do it and you just need to change your passives and gear as you go up.


Are you trying to tell me that barbs were unable to use WW effectively pre 1.0.5?

I doubt it.

And yet, it is getting changed ... I wonder why?

You personally ALREADY have the SOJ - the hardest item to get. Since your AS is 2, you need 20 spirit regen which is pretty much impossible. So you will have to settle for about 1.55 (no IAS using 2 fists).


This is the kind of thing that I don't understand when you say it. I do not need you to tell me how to infinitely TR. That is easy.

The problem is that build is bad. There is no reason to use it.

Dropping my attack speed to 1.55 basically makes the rest of my kit terrible without billions of gold worth of gear to support it.

And even at 1.55 APS I need to sacrafice most of my DPS skills in favor of spirit gen skills which means the build does WAY less dps.

aaaaand that is why you don't see good monks running around infinitely TR'ing.

Total: 16.5 I am almost positive that is enough to keep up a dual-wield setup. But I never tried it. 2 handers pack so much more punch with SW that there is no reason to not use a 2-hander for a TR build.


TR does SO little damage compared to auto attacking, it is currently only a viable build (for damage) with 1bil + in gear to get your dps > 150k. Even then the monks that use TR to kill trash STILL use FoT:TC to kill elites because TR is such poor dmg.

There is a reason no-one uses this skill and it has to do with it being bad. :P

I get it. TR is a blast. I ran it for ages. But you made gear choices preventing the build.


Yup, it is a blast. That is why I want it to be both fun AND viable. Not just one of the two.
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/4/2012 4:13 PM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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good fights today! Moar comments required! <3
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I would totally agree with you if there was a meta!

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be focusing on a "unique" build and be excited about it. But right now, monks have exactly 1 build. I would like to see there be more than 1 and I think that TR could be viable if if wasn't in direct conflict with attack speed.

See the thing is, you CAN use TR "efficiently" right now, AS IS with insane gear. I don't think this promotes build diversity though. People with less than perfect gear should be able to use other builds imo.

once again I don't see how this statement implies that TR shouldn't scale with AS.
all it seems to imply is that TR is too expensive. And if that's the case, this conversation has looped.
Edited by Morionic#1764 on 10/4/2012 9:34 PM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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once again I don't see how this statement implies that TR shouldn't scale with AS.
all it seems to imply is that TR is too expensive. And if that's the case, this conversation has looped.


You are so confusing to talk to :D

My entire argument is for TR to cost less. Of course I am saying it should cost less!

It currently costs 10 per "tick"
I want it to cost 3 per "tick" and 7 per second.

Hence, less.

<throws arms up in air>
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^
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lol, just a word of warning.
any time you say that someone else is confusing, its just asking to be spoken to patronizingly.
so if you find the following somewhat offensive, you totally had it coming :p
without further adieu, im going to reiterate what I previously said in a way that is easier to understand

I essentially said the following about 3 times now, but ill say it again:
I DO NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TR NEEDS A COST REDUCTION.
because it does, I already conceded that in my first post.
IDK why you keep going back to a point that is essentially settled.

so since we agreed on that point, I moved on to the next one, which was:
how should TR's spirit consumption scale with AS

but for some reason this conversation keeps regressing to "TR TOO EXPENSIVE"
when like, it really should have moved passed that topic long long ago.
Edited by Morionic#1764 on 10/4/2012 11:43 PM PDT
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there's a lot to respond to but I'm only going to address one issue that I think is fundamental.

so i think this statement would be a major point of disagreement from me.

I think when you say "bounty of options"
I think you are implying that all skills should be reasonably good with most builds, IE high or low attack speed. And that's what I disagree with.

I think day9 said what I'm about to say better than I can, but I can't find the video where he said it.

but in short, game balance is good, but if you balance it too much, you create an over sterilized environment.
A metagame is a good thing, and it's ultimately born from the imperfections of a game's design and programming, and exploits these imperfections.

If you remove them, you're removing an aspect of the game itself. In the case of tempest rush, you have a very low level metagame exploit. Tempest rush is much better for slow attack speed than high attack speed, and thus it can be exploited as such.

The question at hand is:
Is it okay for tempest rush to cost 2x more spirit at 2.0 AS than at 1.0 AS?
my answer is yes, it's absolutely okay.

Also, comments like these are stupid in the context that I already conceded that tempest rush's cost is a bit high right now. So I won't be responding to them now or in the future.


I would totally agree with you if there was a meta!

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be focusing on a "unique" build and be excited about it. But right now, monks have exactly 1 build. I would like to see there be more than 1 and I think that TR could be viable if if wasn't in direct conflict with attack speed.

See the thing is, you CAN use TR "efficiently" right now, AS IS with insane gear. I don't think this promotes build diversity though. People with less than perfect gear should be able to use other builds imo.


Comparing TR with WW wouldn't work very well in the context of the initial quote you posted. In response to a nerf of the proc coefficient of Sprint, they subsequently made that change to WW under the banner of mercy buffing "Here, you can still infinitely WW."

TR is a mobility skill that might fall more in line with Sprint. I don't agree with establishing build diversity by inherently making TR so heavily favor a 2H usable build. If anything, I agree with you -- I'd prefer it to operate independently of AS so as to open up some new gearing and build options. Just imagine the crap they'd get if Sprint were tied to AS -- it would definitely open up some more build diversity by tying a mobility build with slower attack speed and accomplishes their goal of establishing build diversity. But that's not exactly the type of build diversity I'd like to see in a PvE game because it's just not fun. There's no reason then to force this on monks, who should be the more mobile class with or without a 2H weapon, period. Their proposed changes to Dashing Strike unfortunately don't intrigue me at all, as this is not the type of mobility change monks seem to be asking for to augment farming efficiency. Changes to TR, necessitating a certain gearing/build threshold for spirit regen would be more suitable to accomplish this without the variability imposed by AS.
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Comparing TR with WW wouldn't work very well in the context of the initial quote you posted. In response to a nerf of the proc coefficient of Sprint, they subsequently made that change to WW under the banner of mercy buffing "Here, you can still infinitely WW."

TR is a mobility skill that might fall more in line with Sprint. I don't agree with establishing build diversity by inherently making TR so heavily favor a 2H usable build. If anything, I agree with you -- I'd prefer it to operate independently of AS so as to open up some new gearing and build options. Just imagine the crap they'd get if Sprint were tied to AS -- it would definitely open up some more build diversity by tying a mobility build with slower attack speed and accomplishes their goal of establishing build diversity. But that's not exactly the type of build diversity I'd like to see in a PvE game because it's just not fun. There's no reason then to force this on monks, who should be the more mobile class with or without a 2H weapon, period. Their proposed changes to Dashing Strike unfortunately don't intrigue me at all, as this is not the type of mobility change monks seem to be asking for to augment farming efficiency. Changes to TR, necessitating a certain gearing/build threshold for spirit regen would be more suitable to accomplish this without the variability imposed by AS.


First off, thanks a bunch for the support.

I completely agree that splitting skills between 1h and 2h builds IS diversity, it just isn't the kind that I have any interest in partaking of!

Second, I feel that WW and TR are FAR more similar that people think they are.
There is a single rune for TR that gives it movement speed but aside from that rune it is very much NOT a movement skill.
TR is primarily a "hit mobs" skill. It has runes that indicate it is more of a avoid damage while hitting mobs type while WW seems to be more of a do lots of damage while doing damage type. But both skills are pretty clearly "use this skill to do damage to mobs you move through" abilities.

Furthermore, even if they have fairly dissimilar uses, they are mechanically identical. You click and hold a spot with the skill and it drains your resource as you channel and move.
That is the main reason I chose to compare the two skills.

Again, I am not really arguing with you because I feel like you understand why I am posing this suggestion in the first place. I just keep getting people who say "don't compare WW and TR because they are different" and I not only think they are similar I think it doesn't matter if they are different for my suggestion. :D
Edited by Druin#1518 on 10/5/2012 9:21 AM PDT
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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.
Edited by Kaho#1895 on 10/14/2012 3:05 PM PDT
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