Diablo® III

Diablo 3: A Deconstruction

BUMP
Edited by Slash#1816 on 10/10/2012 8:44 PM PDT
85 Gnome Death Knight
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Bump for such an excellent post
Bumping this again. Please make sure to request sticky as this is well thought-out and intelligent critique that Blizz should learn from and act upon.
85 Night Elf Priest
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I have played Diablo 3 for a while and now I am just playing WOW MoP to kill time. I feel that the OP has a very good grasp on what diablo 3 is wrong about and the exact reasons I quited playing diablo 3.
So you've identified the problem ... or part of it, now what? It isn't sufficient to identify it, and it isn't fair to tell the devs to do it for you. The community seems to support this post for its genuine feel, depth, clarity, and cohesion. You say they can't fix it as is, so what will it take to fix it? At a minimum, what has to go, has to change, has to be added? Can anyone write that post and have this response? Better, can anyone write that post taking this post into account, and get the same support?
85 Gnome Death Knight
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10/11/2012 10:37 PMPosted by FiveseveN
So you've identified the problem ... or part of it, now what? It isn't sufficient to identify it, and it isn't fair to tell the devs to do it for you. The community seems to support this post for its genuine feel, depth, clarity, and cohesion. You say they can't fix it as is, so what will it take to fix it? At a minimum, what has to go, has to change, has to be added? Can anyone write that post and have this response? Better, can anyone write that post taking this post into account, and get the same support?


This is why we keep bumping this post, hoping it will get to the dev, hoping the dev will accept it. I know it is difficult but that's what we are trying here.
So true!
Great wall of text.
Agree with every word.
I'm fine with it getting to the dev ... in fact, I would bet that it already has been seen by at least one dev. Maybe that is naive to think that, but as a dev for a different company, I know I like to hear what people say about my products, and something with this much attention ... well, gets attention. I wouldn't expect any sign that they have read it though ... unless that's customary on this forum. I know that even if I did see something like this at my company, I'd probably draw attention to it to my teammates and superiors if I thought it was worthwhile, but I also know that nothing would be done about it for quite some time even if we wanted to because we are always working through a backlog, patching more pressing issues, and trying to meet existing commitments. All you'd hear from us is "we're listening and we have some ideas that we think will help..."

My point was, they tried once with the initial release and fell short. That's crushing given the time and effort they put into it. They've released a few patches, some of which were relatively large given the timeline, but none of that matters. According to this post, they need to change their trajectory. Instead of them going silent, in and out of meetings, trying to fix things, possibly only to fall short again, why not go loud ourselves.

As a community, don't tell them what's wrong and leave it to them to guess at a fix, sure they're the devs, but D3 as it stands is evidence that they have the formula wrong. What would be the first step to fixing it? What is the biggest obstacle? What is the minimum set of changes necessary? This post says "as is it can't work ...," but does that mean all of it has to go, or just parts of it.

Further, I don't think this post is as deep as it could be ... for instance, is the current implementation of an item-centric design the problem, or is the item-centrism that is the issue? Do they have to go back to D2 skill/stat points according to the community (or at least, the community that can speak with any eloquence and civility), or can they keep the static level driven rune system they have?

Even if we had several conflicting theories about what needs to happen, it is better than just saying "this is broken and we'd like you to fix it." Maybe it is unsolicited advice, maybe it falls on deaf ears, maybe it isn't possible for a community to drive the solution to a problem, but is there a reason not to try?
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10/11/2012 10:37 PMPosted by FiveseveN
now what?


I don't play a lot of Starcraft, sometimes I watch the occasional game. I find it entertaining. When I watch Starcraft sometimes I think about Blizzard, and their games.

I saw the recent developer discussion for the HotS beta.

Dustin Browder, David Kim and co. will be able to shape HoTS into a desirable end product. They will create an exciting and superbly balanced metagame that is largely unmatched in the RTS field. SC2 will remain a competitive online sport.

Jay Wilson and his team cannot fix this game. They are fundamentally incapable of it.

When fans tell you "Hit Detection is broken, we think this is ridiculous" and the developers response is "Dodging attacks isn't fun" then that becomes obvious. The developers are not on a different planet, they are not in a different galaxy. They are in another universe completely.
10/11/2012 11:23 PMPosted by CoolHandLuke
Jay Wilson and his team cannot fix this game. They are fundamentally incapable of it.


Assuming this statement is true/accurate etc... What is the point of posting anything in a D3 forum? Blizzard is not going to oust the dev team, the leaders, or any significant number of staff to bring in replacements who can get the job done. The truth of that statement would imply that Diablo 3 is dead, has hit the terminal drop, and will slowly die over the next year or so. Is this an incorrect conclusion, or do you agree?

If D3 is then terminal, why bother posting, bumping, etc...?

I am not convinced that the existing team cannot fix the game unless there actually is some kind of crazy conspiracy theory. If they keep failing, they'll have a choice: abandon it and take a hit professionally and financially, or change trajectory and reboot the game by announcing a long term strategy the community can believe in, and then slowly roll out the changes necessary, along with some new content, to build the franchise that D3 was planned to be. Personally, I think it would be a mistake to abandon this community as it is full of very passionate, loyal fans who really would appreciate the dream that was D3. (Might be misusing that quote?)
10/11/2012 11:07 PMPosted by FiveseveN
Do they have to go back to D2 skill/stat points according to the community (or at least, the community that can speak with any eloquence and civility), or can they keep the static level driven rune system they have?


In my opinion, this is one of the major problems with D3 and is a root cause of lack of build diversity. The rune system, although could be expanded, is ok IMO.

The problem lies in the lack of naked character differential. For me, I think looking into a skill point and ability progression system similar to what was used by Gas Powered Games in Dungeon Siege might be a good option to the skill tree. Not EXACTLY the same, and maybe a conglomeration of the two systems.

There needs to be some sort of control over hero creation to form unique characters. As it stands, there is no rerolling of any chosen class. Once they're at 60, the gear and changeable passives and abilities defines everything.

With DS, you started the same, and BECAME different classes or blends of classes depending on the way you played. If you are a barb type, use melee weapons, you wish to become a wizard? Cast spells. If that were blended with the loot even AS IS, it would work, because you could create characters of blended class, (albeit less powerful in each area) so some of the loot that rolls as garbage for a pure class, might be feasible for a blended class.

This is just an idea. And, probably not the greatest of solutions. But hopefully other more well thought out ones will come along.

Cheers
10/11/2012 11:35 PMPosted by Otis
The problem lies in the lack of naked character differential.


... so are there other ways to add character differential that could augment the currently flat system? For instance, what if your character got stat boosts with weapon/gear types by actually fighting with those weapons/gear. Its been done before, not an original idea, but it wouldn't require gutting the game immediately, and it would give reason to put more hours in, or to find a better item ... or use a different build.
I see how my idea couldn't work without a complete rebuild.

I honestly don't have any idea how they'd fix it now. The system they built is in a horribly stuck position.

Now I'm sad and need to sleep on it. I'm only still around because I waited so long to LOVE this game and I don't. Can't even force myself to. Tried that A LOT.
If this were not 'Diablo' I wouldn't have even bothered making any effort to post in a forum. This one kicked me in the guts hard & it hurts.

Anyway, thanks for listening. I'll always be trying to think of what would work.
For me, it's very important.

be well
+1 to OP, so glad i found this thread, stating damn near everything i had a problem w/ about the game. I dont understand why u get rid of the main elements that made the Diablo series so f'n addictive. This thread has to get sticked for the love of gawd!!!!!! Bump this thread all day!!!! To the OP, respect!!!

Runes,Crafting,Customization is total !@#$!!!!!!!!!!!
No Lobby, Cant choose the game u want to go to, feels like a ghost town!!!!!!!!
Dare a Blue respond to this thread, the garbage that hey are!!!!

GET THIS STICKIED NOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If this were not 'Diablo' I wouldn't have even bothered making any effort to post in a forum. This one kicked me in the guts hard & it hurts.

Anyway, thanks for listening. I'll always be trying to think of what would work.
For me, it's very important.


This is why I am here as well. I have countless fond memories of D1 and D2 for numerous reasons. I don't find much interest in actually playing D3 at this point, though I do check in on patches. However, this forum seems like a place where time would be well spent, if, as a community, we try to create a cogent argument for what needs to change, and possibly what it might change to.

I know, we aren't devs, we don't all write games, we weren't in the design meetings for D2 or D3, so what do we know, what chance do we have? ... but we are the community, we have spent more hours, intimately or casually playing diablo games than they have spent designing and implementing them. Moreover, we don't have to be here at all, we could have been compelled to follow another franchise, but there is something about diablo that keeps us all coming back, even after 10+ years. Hell, even just those of us who played D2 and LoD for so long ... I don't know another game I have played as much, as long.

We should be able to identify plausible solutions to the problems that plague D3. If nothing else, the attempt to do so would be as dedicated and passionate as all those hours spent in D2, ultimately yielding a sense of satisfaction closer to that of playing D2 than is currently found playing D3. (That's a bit presumptuous of me to say, so I say it lightly, but currently I find myself more engaged with these posts than I am with my D3 builds).
85 Gnome Death Knight
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Posts: 174


Jay Wilson and his team cannot fix this game. They are fundamentally incapable of it.



I do feel the dev team did not have enough knowledge or don't want to know about why D2 was such a success. This would be fine if they did produce a game that was different but equally fun. Unfortunately that wasn't the case...
85 Human Rogue
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Posts: 3,246
If this were not 'Diablo' I wouldn't have even bothered making any effort to post in a forum. This one kicked me in the guts hard & it hurts.


I feel you. When you've waited 10 years in anticipation for something it's really hard to let go.
10/12/2012 12:23 AMPosted by FiveseveN
This is why I am here as well. I have countless fond memories of D1 and D2 for numerous reasons. I don't find much interest in actually playing D3 at this point, though I do check in on patches. However, this forum seems like a place where time would be well spent, if, as a community, we try to create a cogent argument for what needs to change, and possibly what it might change to.


This gets all my feels. Everybody please remember to sticky and repost when the thread caps out (which is coming pretty soon - in 3-4 pages).
The OP's points have been relentlessly brought up to the Diablo 3 team for years before the current idiotic decisions were cemented, and each time the response was nothing short of a middle finger "Those systems are broken here's a blue post that explains why we know better", and "your just remembering the Diablo 2 experience incorrectly," kind of attitude(nostalgia). The mechanics the OP talked about were ideas that the diablo 3 team still believes came from complete losers, who they have directly insulted with both game development choices and childish verbal assault.

The entire development of d3 was set up for failure when Blizzard hired a replacement team with self-esteem issues to finish a job. The replacements wanted to be respected for their ideas and direction instead of just submitting to their predecessors genius and adding to it. When the director of a game is encased by his own ego it is sure to spread down the ranks. Sorry fellas, this games turn around would be based on a lot of very closed minded people coming to terms with logic and reason, and that's not going to happen. If someone is 100% satisfied with d3 the way it is, uhhhhhhhhh develop some standards that's really nassssssttyyyyyyy bra.
85 Gnome Death Knight
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Posts: 174
10/12/2012 11:23 AMPosted by DaJiboo
This is why I am here as well. I have countless fond memories of D1 and D2 for numerous reasons. I don't find much interest in actually playing D3 at this point, though I do check in on patches. However, this forum seems like a place where time would be well spent, if, as a community, we try to create a cogent argument for what needs to change, and possibly what it might change to.


This gets all my feels. Everybody please remember to sticky and repost when the thread caps out (which is coming pretty soon - in 3-4 pages).


This. keep clicking "request for sticky" and "like"
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