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Original thread above capped. Some decent comments and stuff but please keep it under control. Remember, I'm not saying that monks are unviable, I'm saying that they are unfun for me and in 1.0.5 will be even less popular.
From my OP:
Made this thread on the PTR forums but it's definately relevant here. Hopefully people can read it before it is exiled to the Monk forums where it can safely rot away without being read by anyone.
Basically, there are lots of players returning in 1.0.5 and probably a few newbies. Many will be making new toons due to the MP system.
Before they do, I'd like to offer them some advice.
DON'T roll a monk. Yes, they look interesting and the sound of playing a Jackie Chan style demon butt-kicker sounds awesome. However your actual experience will be more along the lines of playing a paladin punching bag.
In more detail:
1) We feel like gimp barbs. Seriously. Just go and compare passives. Then compare skills. Heck, you may also want to compare builders and spenders. We have some okay toys (OWE) but otherwise tons of our stuff feels useless and the stuff that isn't is just way worse. Just compare Battlecry (30% damage and 3% crit, free) to Conviction aura (massive resource cost, 24% damage).
Someone in the PTR actually charted out comparisons of what we have compared to barbs showing just how inferior we are.
2) Our good toys are steadily being taken away with zero compensation. Procs on sweeping wind? Nerfed to zero. Not down to a reasonable percentage like most classes - totally taken away. STL = 50% nerf. Resolve = nerfed. OWE = getting nerfed soon. And before you say we'll be compensated in other ways, just look how that worked out for Demon Hunters.
Every time I read the patch notes it feels like Blizzard promote build diversity by buffing other classes bad skills and nerfing our good ones.
Here's a hint: We aren't using 1-2 builds only because they are OP. We use them because A) we need 2 mandatory defensive passives and at least 2 defensive actives to even survive. And that's before MP and B) because everything else is just awful.
3) Our resource system sucks. We don't regen it and are dependant on it for everything. Even our oh crap buttons have spirit costs. Rather than giving us some spirit, all our buff cooldowns COST spirit, and usually a lot of it. And it builds really slowly. No other class makes me feel resource starved like my monk does, half the time I feel like I don't even have the juice to keep my buffs up.
4) Dodge sucks. Other posters have gone into this, but we are a melee class that relies on a very RNG stat to survive. But more than that, all the other defensive stats scale linearly, while dodge suffers enormous diminshing returns. Even our defensive skills that give dodge don't give a flat rate; they also DR.
Dodge is a really silly stat since it scales so well at low ratings and so terribly at high ratings. If anything, it's more useful for classes that don't use it as a main defensive stat than those that do, which is bass ackward.
The elephant in the room though is that unlike all other defensive stats, dodge is totally ineffective against a lot of attacks. If I'm not mistaken, they don't work at all against ground hazards, which are a big threat to melee players.
5) Procs suck. These are becoming a bigger and bigger part of D3 and since tons of our skills don't have any sort of proc coefficient at all, we are left out in the cold. Also - we are a class that relies heavily on Life on Hit to survive, and tons of our stuff doesn't even proc it.Sure, with great gear we can do well - but so can other classes. Before we have that 50k+ base dps needed to blow everything up, we suffer. And this is going to be even worse in high MP.
6) Passives suck. We actually have less passives than other classes, and probably the highest number of useless ones. Also, while other classes seem to have buffs poured onto them in each patch, for the most part we barely get damp.
Here's a hint. A 10-20% buff to a passive that is already useless probably won't make it useful.
7) Our gear sucks. Not just for the obvious "we need to stack an extra stat compared to other classes" argument, but also - just take a look at our sets. I mean, compare them to the Barb, WD or DH set in terms of awesome stuff.
Why do we have a 0.33 increase to spirit regen while other classes get 2-10x more than us, and us being probably the most resource starved class of them all (since the WD buff)?
Yes, Wizard sets suck too, but they are the second most common class for a reason.Actually most monks I've seen wear the DH set instead. Which is really really lame.
8) Crazily expensive gear. Because we have such specific stat requirements and share gear with another very gear dependant class (DHs) our stuff costs a fortune on the AH.
9) So many bad skills. Really. Again, just compare our skills to those of the barb. At times it feels like there were two different developers with very different ideas of how good a class should be working on each.
10) No hope in sight. Almost every other class has seen some love to bad skills, some commentary on where they stand and some dialogue on where they suck and what's being fixed. What do we get? "Yeah, we want to make you guys use more builds...so we are going to nerf your main defensive passive and plan to gut your other core mechanic sometime soon".
11) Unlike all the other classes, we are balanced around playing in coop. Our only real damage passive requires us to be in a game with other players. Most of our gimpiest buffs and skills are gimped because 'you are supposed to use them on other people'.
So "Just play coop" you say? Well, you can't use MP in public games.
12) Dodge no longer affects damage reflect. This means that we are now even weaker against this, forcing us to stack LOH (and rely on our wonderful non-proccing skills).
13) We are almost guarenteed to be nerfed even more when PvP arrives simply because no one likes having their big spells dodged. There will be QQ and either dodge won't affect most player skills (making us useless in PvP) or we will be nerfed further (making us useless in Pve and PvP). It's a lose lose.
14) Forget about Uberbosses. To have a realistic chance of seeing keys, you need to be in MP5 or above. Without obscene amounts of gear a monk either won't have the dps to kill things or the defenses to survive anything (the dodge not working on stuff is huge here) at this level. Meanwhile budget barbs and WDs can farm it without many worries.
15) Our class doesn't feel 'monky'. We should be an agility hero, unloading tons of blows, dodging attacks and leaping around the battlefield like...well, a barb does.
Instead we rotate defensive cooldowns and try to kill stuff while they are up - and then run around like a headless chicken while they recharge.
> I'm not saying monks can't do MP0. All classes can. But if you want a fun class that is realistic to gear up on an average player's schedule and will be able to do Uberbosses and high MP farming, you should definately go elsewhere.
The saddest part of all is how easy it would be to fix us, at least temporarily for 1.0.5 - or just put us close to even footing with Barbs.
- 7 easy ways to fix us -
> Dodge has less diminishing returns on classes that use it as a main stat. Currently, while other classes' main defensive stats scale linearly, ours caps out at around 50%.
> Dodge now works on plagued, Molten and other stuff it doesn't. Just testing MP3, I can't outheal a single plague pool with 1k LOH, 1200ish resistances and 4k armor.
> Give Sweeping Wind a small proc coefficient.
> Increase the '0.33' on our sets to '3' to be at least close to other classes' sets.
> Don't nerf STI or OWE. Neither of these are OP, and we have no real OP builds. The reason we use these isn't because of how good they are, but because of how dismal everything else is.
> All monk spenders have a 20% reduced spirit cost. All monk buffs/cooldowns have a 40% spirit cost.
> Allow guiding light to work when healing self in solo games.
There are plenty of other good fixes suggested by other posters, but this would be a good start.
I totally agree with everything you said.
I've even tried other builds and spent many millions on gear just to find that, "Yes, I gain 6k dps from that mediocre 1h, I lose 25% survivability," or, "That 24% damage looks nice, but then I can't use Circular Breathing, and therefor I'm always out of spirit."
Yes. I can tank all bosses, but I have to have 3k LoH which gives me 1/2 my typical farming DPS.
The passives I use to maximize my dps (to try and feel good about myself) do nothing. NOTHING to help. I can't find a single offensively oriented passive.
yo sorrow i quoted you and linked your post to mine my thread is http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6758676487?page=1#4
Edited by Solbadguy#1278 on 9/30/2012 2:27 AM PDT
OWE is touted as awesome passive. How awesome can it be with specific resists capping at 60? And they're going to NERF it?!?
I don't feel like a ninja on crack, just an addict with heavy dependency on OWE, STI and resolve. maybe you can suggest a way to get there? Oh, I know, give us innate speed abilities and resource regen.
+1 to the OP. My first 60 was a monk and I ran into the same glass ceiling your raging against now. I couldn't afford better gear and I couldn't get the drops. I was walled into A1 farming because on skill alone you can't get to the A2 bosses. There's a mandatory AR of 800+ and 500 to 1000 LoH. If your gear doesn't meet those basic requirements you'll never see the end of A2 alone. I rerolled a wizard and facerolled A1, A2, A3, and A4 before the CM/WW nerfs.
I feel your nerfbat pain my monk brother and sisters. Bliz is taking away all Twister and Meteor builds from 99% of our player base. It's only useable if you can drop 2 - 3 bil on IAS/CC/Int/AR/Armor gear. Our baseline attacks per second must reach or exceed 2.5 or we can't proc enough to survive MP3, and our best build, Archon, is trash after MP4 unless you can get to... gasp... 300k+ dps for MP5. Let's just pretend the rest doesn't exist because we'll never see it with Archon builds.
The one note I have to say is at least your break point is 50k dps... ours is 100k to 150k dps for Archon, which caps out at MP4.
Im lvl 66 monk and I have to say, my gear is worth 400mil + and yet barbs with 10 mil worth in gear can clear faster than me... How I know? I built one for 4 mil...
I have tested out multitudes of builds on a monk and still it ALWAYS comes back to the same build. its not that we think this build is OP, its because every other build sucks !@#. Even this build the majority of us use is not that great compared with builds for barbs and wiz.
Set bonuses... Seriously... why is it we get 0.33 spirit/per second. That is COMPLETELY useless. Our smallest cost is 10 spirit but even then we have to wait 28 somewhat seconds to actually cast it while DH get infinite casts of vault b/c of their discipline regen?
Frankly the OP stated to bump this up to 3 spirit/per second, I frankly think it should be proportional to DH bonuses.
DH base is 30, and it gives back 2discipline/second.
Monks base is 150 and therefore it hsould give back 10 spirit/second
Sure it is our primary, but anything < 5 is pretty much useless.
Lastly, monks can't use LoH.
Why is it that every other class can use LoH but monk's cannot? Sure we can get it, but it is USELESS. The only things that have proc coefficients for LoH are the fury generators. Almost EVERY OTHER skill does not have proc coefficient...
This makes us HEAVILY reliant on life steal and yet we don't even have an extra slot for life steal like barbs... The highest roll for spirit --> health is ~60 health per spirit.
If we were to use all of our spirit (150) thats 150*60 = 9000k health.
And how long does it take us to regenerate the full spirit back? Well taht obviously depends on gear but its safe to say that majority of us take longer than 15 seconds. Why don't you just remove this and give us Lifesteal...
Change proc rates... do something... cause right now monks sucks
Well, i can honestly say as a HC player who has no life and played this game almost every day since release... monk is my favorite class. I don't see why everyone hates them so much... I think they are perfect for farming (easily the fastest class, DHs could kind of keep up, but since monks can now get 35% movespeed with their passive there is not a single person/other class than can keep up with my monk) Not to mention OWE makes it easy/cheap to stack resistances on MF gear, whether you switch like i do or try to get mf on your main gear.
1) Taking a look at just the names of your chars (which I'm surprised haven't got you banned or something...seriously, just check this guy's profile) I'm not sure if you are just trolling.
2) You haven't passed A1 Inferno.
3) Seriously. What the hell is up with your character names? If I was even to quote one of them on the forums, I'd be eating a permaban.
Edited by Kestral#1405 on 9/30/2012 6:05 AM PDT
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