Diablo® III

Blizzard, a serious word regarding meteor

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I definitely don't have a billion gold worth of equipment, and I can use WW (right now on 1.04) to 100% CC white mobs, and unless I'm being dumb I can usually tank+CC any elite packs. It's not OP for sure, but WW should definitely be viable in 1.05 if you just focus on APS and Crit Chance - just like it always has been.
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10/03/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Darion
Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance

Good phrase, but the problem is you dont balance, you nerf things.
balance will be reduce the proc by 20% 30%, see how it works with new values, if its still unbalance, you move down a bit more.

Why dony you learn a bit from the starcraf2 team? they balance things really well, they move little numbers until find the perfect balance. Thats the way, you cant expect to half the number of procs and say "OK WE GOT BALANCE!"

I dont understand why the diablo team is so stubborn and do things like you do. that is not the way to find balance. You should start doing more micro adjustment to the PTR, instead of huge changes.


QFT
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While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch. Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7155884/Developer_Journal_Defensive_Bonuses_and_Monster_Damage-9_14_2012"]changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage[/url], but also the Monster Power system, and [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7100052/Developer_Journal_Crowd_Control_Changes-9_5_2012"]numerous crowd control improvements[/url]. Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime. Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.


please give us an answer with regards with APoC and LoH

what will you do to compensate these losses?
Edited by Anthian#1571 on 10/4/2012 6:38 AM PDT
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10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch.

Translation: You should notice, that we nerfed other skills too, so why you cry about this one ?

Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage, but also the Monster Power system, and numerous crowd control improvements.

Translation: Why don't you guys play Barb ? We buffed him and even gave him extra difficulty levels, cause the normal game is far too easy for him.

Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime

Translation: You shouldn't have been able to play your stupid Wizards anymore after that patch...the fact you were still able to play by using meteor was a mistake so we fixed it.

10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

Translation: Efficiency is good, as long as you are a Barb, otherwise you have no right to have fun in this game. We try to nerf Wizard to the point it should have been in 1.0.4 already.

The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.

Translation: We nerfed anything we could by changing proc coefficents, now we'll destroy all that's left by hardcoding the last nerfs until you all play Barb, haha damn wizards..uh did i write that now ? crap...
Edited by Darkrox#2119 on 10/4/2012 7:15 AM PDT
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10/04/2012 06:32 AMPosted by LEBENSFORM
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I definitely don't have a billion gold worth of equipment, and I can use WW (right now on 1.04) to 100% CC white mobs, and unless I'm being dumb I can usually tank+CC any elite packs. It's not OP for sure, but WW should definitely be viable in 1.05 if you just focus on APS and Crit Chance - just like it always has been.

Most people are under the impression the only acceptable way to play a wizard is by having infinite resources, monsters CCed 100% of the time, cooldowns always instant and the player otherwise invulnerable (due to 100% stoneskin up time). Anything less than that apparently kills the class.

Oh and you are supposedly forced to play MP10, even though no matter which class you play or what kind of gear you have farming it is completely inefficient and you are much better off playing MP1, even as a WW barb.
Edited by syllogism#1209 on 10/4/2012 6:54 AM PDT
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Blizzard,
Hydra is not iconic. It is silly and weak. Quit trying to bottle everyone into your vision when you talk up all this diversity. Do you people really play these classes or just barbs? Because there is a ridiculous disconnect between your world and your players.
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You devs should try playing wizard first instead of basing your nerfs off über geared YouTube wizards. How about buffing instead of nerfing for balance? You constantly alienate your customers. I should have listened to the reviews before I got this game.
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10/04/2012 06:46 AMPosted by Darkrox
While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch.

Translation: You should notice, that we nerfed other skills too, so why you cry about this one ?

Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage, but also the Monster Power system, and numerous crowd control improvements.

Translation: Why don't you guys play barb ? We buffed him and even gave him extra difficulty levels, cause the normal game is far too easy for him.

Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime

Translation: You shouldn't have been able to play your stupid Wizards anymore after that patch...the fact you were still able to play by using meteor was a mistake so we fixed it.

10/03/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

Translation: Efficiency is good, as long as you are a Barb, otherwise you have no right to have fun in this game. We try to nerf Wizard to the point it should have been in 1.0.4 already.

The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.

Translation: We nerfed anything we could by chaning proc coefficents, now we'll destroy all that's left by hardcoding the last nerfs until you all play Barb, haha damn wizards..uh did i write that now ? crap...


lol
true
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Blizzard,
Hydra is not iconic. It is silly and weak. Quit trying to bottle everyone into your vision when you talk up all this diversity. Do you people really play these classes or just barbs? Because there is a ridiculous disconnect between your world and your players.


The problem with hydra is not power, it is a very powerful spell. (Other than mammoth.)

The problems with it are:
1. It is a boring auto-attack. I literally killed inferno diablo letting hydra do all the work. This was successful - and the biggest let down I've ever felt in a game.
2. It is hard to construct a kiting spec without hydra.

Having a turret is OK - I don't like them, but some do. Making it mandatory for a class is bad. BTW, many do not want to play a kiting spec in the first place, so improving kiting specs while nerfing melee specs will never make those folks happy.
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While the proc coefficient on Meteor and its runes is indeed being nerfed, this change really should be viewed within the full context of the patch. Patch 1.0.5 not only introduces [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7155884/Developer_Journal_Defensive_Bonuses_and_Monster_Damage-9_14_2012"]changes to defensive bonuses and monster damage[/url], but also the Monster Power system, and [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7100052/Developer_Journal_Crowd_Control_Changes-9_5_2012"]numerous crowd control improvements[/url]. Combined with the Meteor’s lowered AP cost and decreased delay between cast and impact, these changes made it so Meteor was more appealing to everyone, which is fine. But they also made the skill extremely efficient (in fact: too efficient) to get Critical Mass procs and 100% CC uptime. Efficiency is good, but there needs to a balance. The skill is still very strong, so the tuning on its proc coefficients will hardly trivialize Meteor builds, and we anticipate that it will be brought back to roughly where it is currently in patch 1.0.4.

That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.


Where does this leave people who have no intention of using Meteor to get CC back up? I use it for Archon cooldown reduction and this is pretty much a straight up nerf to a build you probably didn't even intend to target.
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That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.


Why don't you figure out what the HECK you are doing FIRST, then, once you figure it out, implement it all at once?

No wait, don't answer. You don't ever intend to fix it. You intend to nerf it, and never revisit it, because another "OMG OP!!!" crisis will come along that demands your attention, and you'll nerf that instead of following up on your promise. You know, just like the last time you nerfed the WW coefficent and promised you'd have legendaries (lol) with new proc effects to make up for it.

Sorry, but why even pretend? Just say "sorry, you lose" and leave it at that.
Edited by nyet#1878 on 10/4/2012 8:37 AM PDT
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Nerf critical mass by 50% and restore old procs, or even better nerf it by 75% and boost coefficients by that margin. As it is you kill our synergies with other skills (storm armor/poison weapon/apoc/loh) are totally ruined for something most people dont actually WANT to use, but are forced to.

Yes, thats right, the proc coeficcients FORCE us to use the cheese 100% frost nova uptime instead of giving build diversity, something you said was your priority.


I think this is what people are missing when Blizzard nerfs procs. I don't like it either, but I get around it.

APOC is one of those things people seem to be hanging Wizards on, but it's also hypocritical to want APOC when using skills like Prodigy and Siphoning Blades do kind of the same thing. If I'm relying on APOC, I could be left in the dust at a crucial moment. I'd rather use more reliable definites like Prodigy and Signatures that give me AP than hoping I crit with AOE.

As for the reduced cooldowns CM can bring, that's part of what diversity is supposed to mean. If your entire build hangs on reducing cooldowns, then it's probably not diverse enough. I occasionally try to fit CM into my build, before I realize...yeah, most of the skills I'm using all at once (aside from Diamond Skin, Wave of Force and occasionally Archon) don't even have cooldowns, so sometimes, I don't even bother with CM. When I use Hydras, Signatures, Ray of Frost, and even Meteor (which this thread is about), they're more about keeping my AP up as opposed to waiting for cooldowns. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind cooldowns, but if CM is what you NEED to compete, then switch out some of your skills to keep bad guys busy so that while CM is doing SOME of the job, you still have skills to fend off CQC.

Why is it that I feel like I suck at this game, yet this kind of logic makes perfect sense? :-)
Edited by CardinalMDM#1269 on 10/4/2012 8:44 AM PDT
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I don't know what you guys are talking about. I definitely don't have a billion gold worth of equipment, and I can use WW (right now on 1.04) to 100% CC white mobs, and unless I'm being dumb I can usually tank+CC any elite packs. It's not OP for sure, but WW should definitely be viable in 1.05 if you just focus on APS and Crit Chance - just like it always has been.

Most people are under the impression the only acceptable way to play a wizard is by having infinite resources, monsters CCed 100% of the time, cooldowns always instant and the player otherwise invulnerable (due to 100% stoneskin up time). Anything less than that apparently kills the class.

Oh and you are supposedly forced to play MP10, even though no matter which class you play or what kind of gear you have farming it is completely inefficient and you are much better off playing MP1, even as a WW barb.


Your gear is amazing. Have you played much on the PTR? How well do you do:
1. Without running any form of CM Build?
2. Without running Frost Nova in your build?
3. Without running Diamond Skin in your build?

Can you make a build that uses none of the above 3 skills that can kill stuff past MP8, even at your absurdly high gear level?

Fact of the matter is, people are under the impression that you need 100% cc to play a Wizard because if you are playing a melee wizard you DO need 100% CC due to us having horrible passive defenses. Without 100% CC, we go splat in melee range. Hell we can hardly manage to use our channeled skills other than archon disintegrate in higher MP levels because of how much damage you take channeling long enough to kill a ranged mob.
Edited by Collateral#1954 on 10/4/2012 8:49 AM PDT
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yeah, wizards gonna be buffed in 1.0.6! cant wait to test. maybe they replace archon with another hydra?
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Yeah.. Archon-hydra :D You get transformed into a stationary hydra which auto-fires laser beams (*pew pew pew*) every 2 seconds and makes no crit hit!!

But we should not speak about such things, probably Blizz will add these hydra, because Sorc has to kit! (for what are then the spectral blades good for and most of the other spells :D)
Edited by thE#2970 on 10/4/2012 8:58 AM PDT
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That said, skill synergy isn’t where we want it to be for wizards at the moment, and we’re looking at ways to improve that for the future. The sort of changes we’d like to do are more involved than simple numbers-tuning, though, and they weren’t able to make it in with this patch. But we are absolutely working on them.


Thanks for the explanation. I think the core problem is "Critical Mass". :(
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 10/4/2012 9:04 AM PDT
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10/04/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Collateral
Can you make a build that uses none of the above 3 skills that can kill stuff past MP8, even at your absurdly high gear level?


I did on MP10 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWOwllyx2o

But does that look like fun to you?
I would call it tedious.

I dunno, if they really decide to put the patch live like that, i probaly gonna take a break until 1.06.
And if i am to far behind by then in paragon / gear etc...i prolly quit completly.

fail game is fail.
Edited by Xeno#2262 on 10/4/2012 9:10 AM PDT
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10/04/2012 06:32 AMPosted by LEBENSFORM
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I definitely don't have a billion gold worth of equipment, and I can use WW (right now on 1.04) to 100% CC white mobs, and unless I'm being dumb I can usually tank+CC any elite packs. It's not OP for sure, but WW should definitely be viable in 1.05 if you just focus on APS and Crit Chance - just like it always has been.


To actually achieve 100% uptime with Frost nova you have to have at minimum +2.5 APS, +45% crit,+ 20 Apoc Against single targets (unbuffed) Just ask the resident math genius Shandler about all the break points he went through in getting to 2.88 aps


Most people are under the impression the only acceptable way to play a wizard is by having infinite resources, monsters CCed 100% of the time, cooldowns always instant and the player otherwise invulnerable (due to 100% stoneskin up time). Anything less than that apparently kills the class.

Oh and you are supposedly forced to play MP10, even though no matter which class you play or what kind of gear you have farming it is completely inefficient and you are much better off playing MP1, even as a WW barb.


#1 We don't have infinite resources, If we did we would have to sacrifice so much Armor//Allresist we lose our ability to tank.

#2 The problem isn't 100% diamond skin uptime, The problem is if we lose diamond skin we can at most take 2 hits (30k hp for a wizard is different than a barb's or monks) 3 if we use force armor. We use diamond skin avoid being 1 shotted like other glass cannon builds WHILE still using mostly melee range skills. How is a wizard that doesn't use diamond skin supposed to recover from 15k hp hits with 2,000 Max LOH,+ Max life steal Not even getting 2.5 APS gets you there.

#3 The only thing that MP 10 will be used for is crafting the hellfire ring, anything else means time spent doesn't = efficiency for xp, loot, gold found, Even with that there IS only ONLY 1 build for wizards THAT can do mp 10.

#4 Every other class doesn't have their ability to generate resource, Life, and maintain consistent non-starter skills, so directly tied to 1 single mechanic. Don't start with me that we should be forced to have the gear to properly run the spec, because everything we want in gear is tied to that mechanic, so when the mechanic gets reduced in half for spells OUR GEAR GETS CUT IN HALF!!!!
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Most people are under the impression the only acceptable way to play a wizard is by having infinite resources, monsters CCed 100% of the time, cooldowns always instant and the player otherwise invulnerable (due to 100% stoneskin up time). Anything less than that apparently kills the class.

Oh and you are supposedly forced to play MP10, even though no matter which class you play or what kind of gear you have farming it is completely inefficient and you are much better off playing MP1, even as a WW barb.


Your gear is amazing. Have you played much on the PTR? How well do you do:
1. Without running any form of CM Build?
2. Without running Frost Nova in your build?
3. Without running Diamond Skin in your build?

Can you make a build that uses none of the above 3 skills that can kill stuff past MP8, even at your absurdly high gear level?

Fact of the matter is, people are under the impression that you need 100% cc to play a Wizard because if you are playing a melee wizard you DO need 100% CC due to us having horrible passive defenses. Without 100% CC, we go splat in melee range. Hell we can hardly manage to use our channeled skills other than archon disintegrate in higher MP levels because of how much damage you take channeling long enough to kill a ranged mob.

I'm not currently geared for a pure CM build, but I imagine arcane orb builds with diamond skin and/or teleport with fracture would be fairly trivial for higher MP levels. I actually still like kiting builds, but it's hard to justify using it over an archon build. Perhaps if they provide more incentive to play on higher MP levels I might try that every now and then.

Anyway, as long as you can take a few hits I don't think high MP levels are a problem with a standard kiting build. Back in the day every wizard was using force armor and could only take 3 hits at most. Sure it would be slow, but right now there isn't much incentive to farm higher MP levels anyway unless you are ridiculously overgeared (probably not possible to be overgeared enough for MP8+ to be worthwhile).

e: and wizards can definitely take a lot of hits as we get tons of resitances from int and also have extremely powerful defensive skills.

e2: in fact, kiting is ridiculously easy due to the changes to snare effects in 1.05
Edited by syllogism#1209 on 10/4/2012 9:21 AM PDT
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[quote]Your gear is amazing. Have you played much on the PTR? How well do you do:
1. Without running any form of CM Build?
2. Without running Frost Nova in your build?
3. Without running Diamond Skin in your build?

Can you make a build that uses none of the above 3 skills that can kill stuff past MP8, even at your absurdly high gear level?

Fact of the matter is, people are under the impression that you need 100% cc to play a Wizard because if you are playing a melee wizard you DO need 100% CC due to us having horrible passive defenses. Without 100% CC, we go splat in melee range. Hell we can hardly manage to use our channeled skills other than archon disintegrate in higher MP levels because of how much damage you take channeling long enough to kill a ranged mob.


Even I can do that on my cheapo 50K dps wiz... The problem is I could watch a movie before killing an elite :P

With his DPS, sounds easy actually... The problem is, just like he said, why bother? Its a complete waste of time... The ONLY purpose of playing anything above MP5 right now is to farm Hellfire Rings... Otherwise its USELESS

Some DH with 300K dps made a thread comparing Mp4, Mp6 and Mp10 before, he found even with his dps, Mp4 was BY FAR the most kills/items per hour

Ive found the same... Mp4 seems to be the sweet spot, gives you 45% more exp and its not much harder than MP1 at all... Mp5 is where things start to get stupid, so just avoid it
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